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Quax
Jan-27-2014, 05:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toIvr0fV7cE

Skoshi_Tiger
Jan-27-2014, 05:42
I guess nobody has "got it right" so far, some sims do one thing ok and other sims do other things ok.

I found this "Test" posted over at the BoS site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXr4JD-zAuc#t=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXr4JD-zAuc#t=0

Personally I think that the physics modeling for centre of gravity is fairly important when trying to get ground handling "right". Last time I tried that in CoD the plane tipped over onto it's wing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3h2uJO_-s&feature=youtu.be

Kling
Jan-27-2014, 05:49
Slipstream will be tweaked for patch 4.01 as will all ground handling. ;)

Gone are the days of easy take offs and landings ;)

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-27-2014, 06:03
.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 06:10
.

vranac
Jan-27-2014, 06:10
Quax, are you with HQ? Do you know Pirke ?

Mattias
Jan-27-2014, 06:14
:salute:

As Kling said ground handling has been revised and will be released with TF4.01 very soon :thumbsup:

My guess is that the original developers did not want to make life too hard for the guys lacking rudder pedals :D

Cheers/m

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 06:22
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Skoshi_Tiger
Jan-27-2014, 06:28
@Tiger: the vid you showed is perfect. Right rudder on a right turning engine will give you exactly that behaviour. What is your point ? I hope CloDs 109 will show the same after 4.01 then. The CoG in BoS is good as well, BTW. CloD has it too far forward (or the brakes are not reallistic). The 109 was designed to be braked with full brake !
CoG is far behind the wheel for that purpose. This design makes it hard, as soon as the tail starts swinging around though.

BoS is being touted as having life like ground handling. If you can show me this behavior in a aircraft I would be most interested to see it. The aircrafts centre of gravity is high up. The centripetal acceleration would cause it to pivot on the wheel on the outside of the turn, the oleo on that wheel strut would compress and the aircraft would tip onto that wing. As for the rudder in the 109 having enough authority to counter balance the tip forces Hmmm! isn't the rudder the control that is causing it to spin around ..... I doubt that the aileron (which would be needed to counteract the rolling force) would be able to counteract the tip.

The famous engineer Scottie is reported to have said something about not being able to change the Laws of Physics. I guess some flight sims have got an exemption from that ruling! ;)

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 06:34
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vranac
Jan-27-2014, 06:42
y

Ok. He just bought BoS. I can translate you later his opinion but it's the same as Kwaitek, Blackhart and other RL pilots were writing on BoS forums.

I expected good FM from 777 but now it's not. And unfortunately it's finished.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 06:59
.

Osprey
Jan-27-2014, 07:09
And no hard earned grudges altering your viewpoint no doubt.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 07:19
.

Skoshi_Tiger
Jan-27-2014, 07:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PUlRCi9FBQ&feature=youtu.be

...

allthough it would look a bit different in RL for sure.

That's all I'm saying Quax, neither sim is perfect and both require work.

One of the things that I think BoS needs to work on is their centre of gravity modeling.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 07:27
.

vranac
Jan-27-2014, 07:48
Pirke can speak for himself. I can talk with him on TS. Don´t need your help. Thank you.


Ok. I metioned him because you probably know how he is flying as an virtual pilot. He is military pilot also.

" aeroplane is too much unstable in all directions"
" when you hit rudder it rolls in 1 sec ) you should pool stick on yourself for a snap roll but here you only need rudder to do it"
" when I push or pool the stick for AoA aeroplane behaves better than the best acrobatic modern plane."
"in a stall fight it's crazy, I can fight at 90 km/h without a stall "...

You like videos, explain this please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SveBPF6AN0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BguS-PzFuz4

9./JG52_J-HAT
Jan-27-2014, 07:55
The viewpoint of the ATAG guys was already stated by Bliss, before BoS could be tested. That is a pitty, because most could have had both sims on their harddrives.

Oh, so what did Bliss say about owning BoS? I didn't get the memo. Should I reconsider my decision of eventually buying it upon release?

Sorry, but we still have our own minds, even if we belong to a group. Theres is no such thing as ATAG's opinion.

And I can use brakes to keep the 109 straight in CoD. Don't see a problem with that. Not 100% brake, that's for sure, but it is possible and quite useful sometimes.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 08:12
.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-27-2014, 08:23
Sorry, but we still have our own minds, even if we belong to a group. Theres is no such thing as ATAG's opinion.
.

Not what I heard. I heard that ATAG is all a bunch of Robots, and that Bliss has got this remote control thing... and that he can make decisions for you.. with a microchip... implanted in your brains, or your spines, or something.... yeah, that's what I heard.

vranac
Jan-27-2014, 08:30
Please give me the link then, I'm not a member of that forum.

Pirke passed training on a prop pitch aeroplane also, and he is the fan of the kites also :)

I think he knows something about aerodynamics and aeroplane behavior.

Osprey
Jan-27-2014, 08:40
Vranac, I explained several aspects of that vids already in the BoS forum. Just use the search function.

"aeroplane is too much unstable in all directions" Pirke flies helicopters, if i remember right. But I already flew with a 109 veteran ace. So I trust this guys opinion.

I interviewed a guy once, he put a software tool on his CV which I happened to be an expert in, it was an industry tool so important for the role hence the reason why I was on the interview team. Anyway, I began to question him about the tool and I quickly realised he didn't know anything really at which point I asked how he gained his experience on it and he then said "I saw a colleague using it from over his shoulder".

Do you see my point now?

BTW, this '109 ace', that means he's shot down at least 5 aircraft in a 109. That makes him about 90 years old - and he's flown BOS too?

BTW2 ATAG is not the entire COD community

BTW3 my point was that you indicated your bias toward COD by mentioning tree collisions. Well, as soon as a someone from the BOS community mentions that I tend to consider them a fanboy to be honest, and not worth listening too regardless of their background in aviation. Had it not occurred to you that COD was destroyed by politics, that they were forced to release an alpha and that we would have all had BOM by now - including the COD planeset, RUssian map and tree collisions. Instead BOS is miles away, non-compatible and backwards in many features.

BTW4, I'm a BOS Platinum owner, what I've seen so far has not gripped me one bit. I'm probably not going to spend any more money on it - It just felt like 1946 to me, thank you 777 and your meddling.

vranac
Jan-27-2014, 08:45
Not what I heard. I heard that ATAG is all a bunch of Robots, and that Bliss has got this remote control thing... and that he can make decisions for you.. with a microchip... implanted in your brains, or your spines, or something.... yeah, that's what I heard.

:)

http://sppiblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/borg2.jpg

DUI
Jan-27-2014, 08:46
Who got it right ?


I don´t need anybody elses opinion about a FM.

:faint:

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 08:50
Not what I heard. I heard that ATAG is all a bunch of Robots, and that Bliss has got this remote control thing... and that he can make decisions for you.. with a microchip... implanted in your brains, or your spines, or something.... yeah, that's what I heard.



#!/bin/sh

LINES=`wc -l /usr/share/ATAG_Replies.txt | awk '{ print ($1 + 1) }'`
RANDSEED=`date '+%S%M%I'`
LINE=`cat /usr/share/ATAG_Replies.txt | awk -v COUNT=$LINES -v SEED=$RANDSEED 'BEGIN { srand(SEED); \
i=int(rand()*COUNT) } FNR==i { print $0 }'`
echo $LINE

Syntax error.

9./JG52_J-HAT
Jan-27-2014, 08:57
Not what I heard. I heard that ATAG is all a bunch of Robots, and that Bliss has got this remote control thing... and that he can make decisions for you.. with a microchip... implanted in your brains, or your spines, or something.... yeah, that's what I heard.

So that's Bliss' voice I keep hearing? :doh:

ATAG_Snapper
Jan-27-2014, 09:27
Some interesting viewpoints here, but this thread has run its course. Thanks for everyone's input.

Snapper :salute:

ATAG_Bliss
Jan-27-2014, 09:41
OK, that's good news ! However Bliss stated in the BoS forum, that slipstream is perfect with 4.0. That is why I didnt expect any improvement.

Quax,

You will never be taken seriously constantly repeating false information. The thread at BoS about IL2COD, you just so happened to jump into and you said Cliffs of Dover doesn't have Spiral Slipstream. Amongst a plethora of other people telling you it did, I also told you Cliffs of Dover has spiral slipstream. So if you are going to say I said something, you had better quote it, because I did not say any such words about anything being perfect. No computer game will EVER have the power to model a real airplane in real time, and all the forces of which.

You must realize many people want a historical speed, roll rate, climb rate, damage model, etc. Thus far BoS is not very close to historical performances on their planes, which is following the same path as the FM in ROF.


The viewpoint of the ATAG guys was already stated by Bliss, before BoS could be tested. That is a pitty, because most could have had both sims on their harddrives. Sorry, I didnt get your post entirely, cause I am not english, and google doesnt tanslate very well.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. Please quote me or show me where I said anything about ATAG as a whole. I just like any other member of the flight sim community is perfectly fine making their own opinions about things. I'm a premium member in BoS as well. So I can easily say it's not even close to on par with Cliffs atm in areas that I care about.

Just like Osprey said, when you start an argument about Cliffs with something like tree collisions, you've basically already lost. Cliffs is getting traction because of it's ability and it's flight modelling. No other sim to date has given me the same feeling in a MP dogfight. I imagine DCS would as well, but until it's MP gets up to speed, the full scale immersion of it is not there yet. BoS with it's FM, DM, and AoA issues most definitely does not do much for me atm.

ATAG_Snapper
Jan-27-2014, 09:49
Thread reopened. This is the ATAG Forum, we do crazy stuff like that! :D

All viewpoints are welcome, I just ask that it all stay civil and polite. Then shoot your antagonist down in flames on the ATAG Server!

:)

ChiefRedCloud
Jan-27-2014, 10:25
WOW! :stunned: http://imageshack.com/a/img194/8633/7aa.gif For a long time novice like myself, this is a lot to take in. Being reasonably illiterate on the details of Flight Physics I find myself captivated by all these comments. Bottom line, I enjoy CloD and WHEN BoS comes to our virtual shelves at a reasonable price, I may give it a whack too. But all this HE said She said and finger pointing ..... WOW!

We indeed ALL have our views and opinions. And it is way to easy to misquote someone to try and slant a conversation (even taking different languages into consideration). I'm not put off by all this as I recognize that occasionally this stuff HAS to come out. It's like finally realizing you HAVE to do the dirty laundry. So the bottom line is, as you ALL already know, each to their own likes or dislikes. Cheers!

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 11:00
In the BoS forum my vid got deleted by moderators. Here the topic was locked. Perhaps the HQ forum is the only one without censorship. Funny that no single personal insult was posted in both forums. Must have political reasons.

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 11:14
In the BoS forum my vid got deleted by moderators. Here the topic was locked. Perhaps the HQ forum is the only one without censorship. Funny that no single personal insult was posted in both forums. Must have political reasons.


Quax,

May I ask what is that you're trying to accomplish with the video?

I see 3 options:
1.- You are trying to say that BoS is better in your opinion.
2.- You are trying to get TF to fix something you think is wrong.
3.- You are just trolling.

If is #1, just state it like that. I think a phrase saying "In my opinion, BoS models slipstream better than CloD. But this is my personal opinion and every one is entitled to their own" would be much better than "which one is wrong?".

If it is #2, also rephrasing your post would better accomplish this but be prepared for an exchange of opinions and be ignored by TF unless hard evidence with backing documentation of "how it should be" is presented.

If it is #3.. well, you know.


What I'm trying to say is that maybe, a little more care in the choosing of words could change the whole mood of the thread.

Colander.

PS:. Note that I'm signing my post without the ATAG in my nick so I don't cause any confusion whether this is my post or an ATAG post.

ATAG_Snapper
Jan-27-2014, 11:18
In the BoS forum my vid got deleted by moderators. Here the topic was locked. Perhaps the HQ forum is the only one without censorship. Funny that no single personal insult was posted in both forums. Must have political reasons.

The only one censoring this thread is you, Quax. Why did you delete all your posts?

Foul Ole Ron
Jan-27-2014, 11:21
BoS is being touted as having life like ground handling. If you can show me this behavior in a aircraft I would be most interested to see it. The aircrafts centre of gravity is high up. The centripetal acceleration would cause it to pivot on the wheel on the outside of the turn, the oleo on that wheel strut would compress and the aircraft would tip onto that wing. As for the rudder in the 109 having enough authority to counter balance the tip forces Hmmm! isn't the rudder the control that is causing it to spin around ..... I doubt that the aileron (which would be needed to counteract the rolling force) would be able to counteract the tip.

Also Gunther Rall had this to say about ground loops:

"The 109 had not for us, maybe not for the long time pilots of the 109, but the new comers had problems starting with the gear. You know it was a high, narrow gear. And we had many ground loops. And then the gear breaks. That is not a norm, this is a exception, but it anyway happens. "
- Major Gunther Rall. German fighter ace, NATO general, Commander of the German Air Force. 275 victories. Source: Lecture by general Rall.

Currently though BOS will spin around forever without any damage. In general, to be fair, the ground handling in BOS is very good and the brakes on the 109 can be used the way were used in real life. But it's clear that some things aren't modelled fully yet either.

The inflight FM is mostly nice as well though again there's things which are clearly off - the roll rates in particular are completely off and I've no idea where they got them from. If the devs put in the effort to polish some things up they'll have something nice on their hands but we'll see.

The cockpits are pretty hideous compared to CloD and DCS though - definitely some work needed there on the 109 especially. But we're still in alpha so hopefully there's still some polishing to be done. I'm not expecting DCS / CLOD levels but they're not up to scratch for 2014.

LuseKofte
Jan-27-2014, 11:36
Well I do agree on the opinion that all BOS related topics evolve into politics. And there are more into it than two bad FM.
I see only hostility against a honest effort to get a new good flight tsim.
It might be I will not fly this new sim but I am surly going to try it out, I have always wondered about the negativity against Clod in IL 2 sites, it is like they do every effort trying to stop anyone trying to go CLOD, and I can see the same thing in here towards BOS.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-27-2014, 11:51
I have always wondered about the negativity against Clod in IL 2 sites, it is like they do every effort trying to stop anyone trying to go CLOD, and I can see the same thing in here towards BOS.

You're right Jaeger. There is some of that.
But plenty of people own both games. I hope that not everyone is being an un-necessary critic.

I do not have BoS. But for four reasons that I will happily list;

1. I don't care about the Eastern Front. I grew up reading books about the Battle of Britain, Dieppe, the desert war, Malta, Italy, Normandy and the Bulge. That is my "romantic" attachment. Not the eastern front.

2. I don't want to put money in the gamble just yet. I will wait until final release, and then reconsider.

3. Although I play a lot. I spend enough time on Flight Sims games already.. another one will put pressure on my time.

4. I play multiplayer. Two games will split the multi-player base. If I was single player only I would say that "more games is better".. but I'm not. I'm into multi-player. Every person that is on the BoS servers, is one less for me to fly against on CloD. So I'd rather stick to one, to help keep this game alive.

ATAG_EvangelusE
Jan-27-2014, 12:01
Well I do agree on the opinion that all BOS related topics evolve into politics. And there are more into it than two bad FM.
I see only hostility against a honest effort to get a new good flight tsim.
It might be I will not fly this new sim but I am surly going to try it out, I have always wondered about the negativity against Clod in IL 2 sites, it is like they do every effort trying to stop anyone trying to go CLOD, and I can see the same thing in here towards BOS.

I paid for the premium early access not to pre-judge BoS but to support my interest in flight sims. I hope my money will be well spent but I won't know that untill the project is completed and possibly gone through a few updates. I am certainly not hostile but you know that anyway.

A succesful flight sim is made of many parts and FM, though important, is just one cog driving a whole bunch of others each dependent on the other.

ATAG_Bliss
Jan-27-2014, 12:03
Well I do agree on the opinion that all BOS related topics evolve into politics. And there are more into it than two bad FM.
I see only hostility against a honest effort to get a new good flight tsim.
It might be I will not fly this new sim but I am surly going to try it out, I have always wondered about the negativity against Clod in IL 2 sites, it is like they do every effort trying to stop anyone trying to go CLOD, and I can see the same thing in here towards BOS.

No Jaeger - I think you are talking about different things. People are going to criticize things that aren't right. That is not negativity. There is a huge difference between saying something is crap and actually leaving constructive criticism, comparisons, and arguments for why A is better than B or X does something better than Y. There is no politics involved at all.

I, for instance, haven't been impressed by BoS because it doesn't do the things I want it to do yet. It's damage model is very arcade. It's flight models are far from historical. It's complex engine management is a huge step backwards from Clod. Many things don't effect speed one iota for instance, things like the position of radiators, flying the plane at proper prop pitch compared to the real flight manual of the plane, etc. etc. It hasn't proved itself to allow any objects amounts like Clod or 46 levels yet. It hasn't been shown to have all that stuff going on in a MP mission yet with 100 humans at the same time. It doesn't have the ability to script in anything you want in a mission, let alone even have the basic mission builder capable of doing basic stuff that IL246 has done for a decade. It's cockpits look pretty bad in comparison. The ground textures look like something from doom 3d (actually their resolution is the same level as 2001 IL2FB).

So when people get used to a product that does X,Y,Z etc.,etc., regardless of it being a flight sim that's being worked on right now or not, if it's still not up to par with something people are currently enjoying, they are probably not going to switch over very easy just because it's a new thing. The new thing has got to be better. IL246 is still amazing for instance. It's amazing in what you can do with mission building, it's content, and it's online and offline ability. But Clod does most of that stuff better, with more fidelity, with better graphics, FM, DM etc. It's poorer in other areas like the AI, tree collision, and obviously lack of content between the 2. But those things Clod does better, is the reason more and more are trying Clod everyday. It's the same reason people are trying DCS and enjoying it as well. But BOS doesn't do very much better than what we currently have. And in the areas I really care about it falls really short.

You may find this negative or political, but the reality is people fly flight sims for different reasons. I play them because of what they can do. I'm know I'd be the 1st one playing DCS (because of it's fidelity in all areas) if it's MP was up to par. So even though I own every single DCS module there is, since my main enjoyment comes from MP, I hardly find myself playing it. The same can be said for any other view points of why X person would rather play flight sim Z. But for someone to say the why's or for someone to criticize is not negative at all. It's just their point of view.

When you've played ROF as long as I did, built missions for it, ran a server for it, was a beta tester for it etc., you would understand where I'm coming from with regards to the game engines between the 2. But stating those things aren't in a way to take the punch at something. It's just stating why BoS is not up to par with our current offereings, for ME, as a flight simmer.

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 14:19
.

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 14:27
Come on, you don´t believe that yourself. I stated in the BoS forum, that BoS has slipstream modelled, CloD not. Everyone knows that. Otherwise you wouldn´t try to address this with 4.01.


Wrong.
TF is not looking at any "spiral slipstream". If there's anything wrong with the current modeling, feel free to post hard evidence about it.
TF IS looking at ground handling though but that has nothing to do with "spiral slipstream".

Quax
Jan-27-2014, 14:37
.

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 14:50
You're welcome.

Foul Ole Ron
Jan-27-2014, 15:19
Thanks for the info. I can delete CloD right away.

http://img.pandawhale.com/74343-Tombstone-well-bye-gif-hji0.gif

Mysticpuma
Jan-27-2014, 15:40
I used to play European air war. I am.sure t never modelled it and I never missed it....but I did have fun....I don't think I will concern myself too much with this then.

:)

Cheers, MP

ATAG_Lolsav
Jan-27-2014, 15:44
I can delete CloD right away.

At least i have a chicken...

Quoting the great Leeeeroy

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 15:44
For starters I'm not sure what he was complaining about. I can't take off in a 109 without using rudder.

Mattias
Jan-27-2014, 15:59
For starters I'm not sure what he was complaining about. I can't take off in a 109 without using rudder.

:salute:

He wanted the 109 to need full rudder + right brake. Great fun for the guys without rudder pedals (and hence no toe brakes) :recon:

Cheers/m

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 16:01
Or do this:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1992qg04meqrtjpg.jpg

Kwiatek
Jan-27-2014, 16:20
If it is no evidence, that every high power single engine propeller aircraft needs lots of rudder to counter the slipstream and the 109 did need additionally right brake, because full rudder was not enough, then I don´t have to wait for 4.01.
At the moment CloD aircraft run straight on rails, like jet aircraft. I proofed that with my vid. Thanks for the info. I can delete CloD right away.

About "horrible" tendency to swing 109 E and Spitfire MK I at take off and landing - WW2 test pilot notes:

SPitfire MK I

Landing and take-off.

The aeroplane is easy and normal to take-off. There is a slight tendency to swing, but this is not so pronounced as on a Fury and is automatically and easily corrected by the pilot.The aeroplane is simple and easy to land, but requires very little movement of the control as the elevator control is so powerful, and it is not necessary to have the control column fully back.

If the engine is opned up with the flaps and undercarriage down, the aeroplane can be easily held by the control column. The aeroplane does not swing when landing.


Ground handling.

The ground handling is exceptionally good. The aeroplane is easy to turn and taxi in fairly strong winds. It is a more satisfactory aeroplane for operating in high winds than the normal biplane fighter.


British 109 E test:

Take-off
This is best done with the flaps at 20 degrees. The throttle can be opened very quickly without fear of choking the engine. Acceleration is good, and there is little tendency to swing or bucket. The stick must be held hard forward to get the tail up. It is advisable to let the airplane fly itself off since, if pulled off too soon, the left wing will not lift, and on applying aileron the wing lifts and falls again, with the ailerons snatching a little. If no attempt is made to pull the airplane off quickly, the take-off run is short, and initial climb good.

Landing
This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy.

9./JG52_J-HAT
Jan-27-2014, 16:25
Or do this:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1992qg04meqrtjpg.jpg

Hey, we have that in BoS! Why can't we get that in TF 4.01 too?

Kling
Jan-27-2014, 16:28
Well I dont see why a plabe would swing upon landing. The throttle is reduced and with it the slipstream is also reduced so there will be no tendancy to swing...

Continu0
Jan-27-2014, 16:31
Quax, did you check your realism-settings? Slipstream and everything can be turned off, right? I mean that would be a thing if the whole conversation for nothing because of that...

Kling
Jan-27-2014, 16:41
Quax, did you check your realism-settings? Slipstream and everything can be turned off, right? I mean that would be a thing if the whole conversation for nothing because of that...

I think there is no point in replying here anymore...
The guy uninstalled the game remember ;)

Fehler
Jan-27-2014, 16:45
Or do this:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/1992qg04meqrtjpg.jpg


I am pretty sure that is a Bentley... (=English)

Now if you could do that in a Mercedes, (= German) all would be fine! Haha!

Continu0
Jan-27-2014, 17:07
Meanwhile, near Stalingrad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXr4JD-zAuc

Mattias
Jan-27-2014, 17:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SveBPF6AN0

Am I the only one feeling the urge to hum "Op, op, op, op, Oppa Gangnam Style" when I see this? :go:
(No offence to BoS intended)

Cheers/m

ATAG_Bliss
Jan-27-2014, 17:21
Come on, you don´t believe that yourself. I stated in the BoS forum, that BoS has slipstream modelled, CloD not. Everyone knows that. Otherwise you wouldn´t try to address this with 4.01.

I just posted the vid here, cause of your trolling in the BoS forum. And now look, how you can handle qualified critiques. Just reread the thread.


I think you're the one failing to read here. You again are trying to say the Clod does not have spiral slipstream. It does have spiral slipstream modeled. Do you think there's a magic force that comes down on a plane and makes a player use rudder to take off with besides slipstream/prop wash. Fly planes in Clod trimmed to cruising speed faster than that speed and watch the propwash / engine torque try to roll/yaw the plane on it's own. Of course it's modeled. Ground handling is a completely different subject than slip stream.

I hope this confusion on your end is just because you don't understand English that well. Because you are quite wrong. The reason you saw bits of the prop code was to show you slipstream along with every other conceivable prop effect is modeled in Clod. So again, either you don't understand by way of comprehension, or you just refuse to admit it. But it is there. You lose all credibility when you say stuff like flying on rails.

Add some wind in the mix, and the last thing you are doing is flying on rails.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXy289FhR2s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOMn_BUM_L0

ATAG_Colander
Jan-27-2014, 17:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SveBPF6AN0

Am I the only one feeling the urge to hum "Op, op, op, op, Oppa Gangnam Style" when I see this? :go:
(No offence to BoS intended)

Cheers/m


This is what came to mind on the first seconds :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEOeTX1LqM

ATAG_Bliss
Jan-27-2014, 18:06
I think there is no point in replying here anymore...
The guy uninstalled the game remember ;)

Oh there is a point. His credibility just keeps getting worse. Now he's spouting off saying we deleted his posts/videos and censored his words here on SimHq. I mean, anyone that can read a forum can clearly see the guy edited and deleted his own posts here. This is the obvious troll of the year winner right here.

Enjoy: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3902755/Re_Slipstream_Model_in_CloD_an#Post3902755

Foul Ole Ron
Jan-27-2014, 18:21
The amusing part is he's so emotionally invested in proving something wrong in CloD that he has total blinkers on when it comes to any obvious deficiencies in the BOS FM modelling. I'll freely admit that the ground handling for the most part is better in BOS and the 109 behaves more like it's real life counterpart. However the ground loops aren't right but they're ok in his world. He doesn't seem to care at all that the roll rate in the 109 is off by over 30% across all speeds and that's a far more important characteristic in the end than ground handling as most of the time will be spent in the air. Throw in the high level of passive / aggressiveness in his posts and tinfoil hat conspiracy delusions you actually feel like taking the chap to one side and asking is he ok.

Mattias
Jan-27-2014, 19:20
Oh there is a point. His credibility just keeps getting worse. Now he's spouting off saying we deleted his posts/videos and censored his words here on SimHq. I mean, anyone that can read a forum can clearly see the guy edited and deleted his own posts here. This is the obvious troll of the year winner right here.

Enjoy: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3902755/Re_Slipstream_Model_in_CloD_an#Post3902755

Don't know whether to roflmao or :(

vranac
Jan-27-2014, 19:25
This is what came to mind on the first seconds :)


This one is even better and I got the same feeling like you when I was watching it. On lower speeds in a climb.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI70E5BccYY

I don't want to bash Quax, I just pointed him to a friend of mine who is excellent virtual pilot and I'm sure Quax is aware of that.

Pirke has no agenda against 777 , RoF , BoS and actually he was flying RoF more than old il2 and Clod recently.

He won 4vs4 Rof Gladiators championship with HQ recently and he bought BoS with the price money from that one but I'll quote him once more:

" I'm not so happy with it [FM] I was flying it for 2 h and because it's still alpha and 38% finished I will give them another chance
but now I think that they just needed some effort to finish Clod [FM] but f**k ...
Competition for the ancestor of il2 is still open "

ChiefRedCloud
Jan-27-2014, 23:59
I guess this is what Quax originally posted .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toIvr0fV7cE

But I have to agree with someone above in that IF this (see BoS comparison towards the end of video, then there are going to be a more than a few who do not play BoS because everyone either cannot or will not purchase rudder peddles. All I really know is that "I" normally have to compensate each and every time I take off. Perhaps you can set up the ideal variants so you don't have to in QMB but I am challenged in the ATAG servers each and every time.

Quax
Jan-28-2014, 02:27
hillarious shitstorm :thumbsup: .....99% of the posts off topic


@ChiefRedCloud: no wind, i didnt touch the QMB. Just hold brakes, as it only yaws as long as you advance power.

Mysticpuma
Jan-28-2014, 02:44
I was going to reply to you Quax, but realised you'll just delete your post and move on somewhere else to stir the pot.

So, Spiral Slipstream.......sounds like a good name for a pop group :)

I wonder if Quax uninstalled CloD. If only he(she) would post an update at the BoS or SimHQ forums we could find out?

MP

Mattias
Jan-28-2014, 03:27
hillarious shitstorm :thumbsup: .....99% of the posts off topic

Well, it's kind of hard for us to know what the topic is since you went on deleting the opening post (and 99% of your the rest) :)
Considering you lied about this over at SimHQ I think you've been treated very kindly here :thumbsup: Most forums would ban you for much less :recon:
This thread should probably be locked, but again since you lied about ATAG censuring your posts you pretty much made it impossible for the moderator to lock it :doh:

Cheers/m

Quax
Jan-28-2014, 03:39
give me a break. I didnt say you deleted my posts. This thread has been locked already. That is what i ment. BoS forum did delete my posts. Learn to read.

Mattias
Jan-28-2014, 03:48
give me a break. I didnt say you deleted my posts. This thread has been locked already. That is what i ment. BoS forum did delete my posts. Learn to read.

"this vid was censored in the BoS and ATAG forum. Let´s see how long it survives here cheers "
Learn to write :D

Quax
Jan-28-2014, 03:51
If you lock the thread I have opened, it is censorship for me. And that´s why i deleted. I didn´t insult anyone. The thread was locked for political reasons.

Mattias
Jan-28-2014, 03:56
If you lock the thread I have opened, it is censorship for me. And that´s why i deleted. I didn´t insult anyone. The thread was locked for political reasons.

Whatever makes you happy :salute:

Foul Ole Ron
Jan-28-2014, 05:18
Quax you seem determined to flog this point over and over with the end result that as ground handling is inferior to BOS that CloD is something beneath you and can't be played and in fact must be deleted off your hard drive. By that logic you should also do the same with BOS with its roll rates which are wrong by a large margin. If these roll rates and other ahistorical FM modelling continues into the final product will you quit BOS or will you manage to handle the cognitive dissonance by only seeing what you want to see? I'm sure Gavagai could tell you all about the incorrect FM modelling they did in ROF where planes didn't match their RL counterparts in performance and their lack of interest in correcting the problems. Let's hope this attitude doesn't continue with BOS or the so-called shitstorm here will be miniscule compared to what will explode on the BOS forums.

I can't speak for TF but from what I see they had to prioritise their development resources and concentrate on more critical areas first than ground handing. In particular they seemed to want to bring the FMs in line with historical RL performance and each major release has brought significant steps forward in that area (as well as a whole pile of other improvements). Acting like the whole product is beneath you just because they haven't gotten yet to less important areas that need development such as ground handling is pretty churlish. There's not many flight sims out there these days and throwing one out completely that, while not perfect, does a lot of things well just doesn't make sense to me.

Davis0079
Jan-28-2014, 05:58
The thread was locked for political reasons.


political reasons?????? whos running for office this year.....Mattias?????......whats he running for



doesnt BoS have a health meter damage system........end of argument.......go play your beloved BoS......you want to flame on someones forums...go over to the DCS forums like the rest of us....dont bring your high and mighty attitude here....or I got an even better idea...go complain on the C1 forums...they are the ones that need to be told that Clod is a piece of shit......but the things that TF has done for not only this game, but the community as a whole. I get very upset with you when you flame on the TF team....they have done nothing but improve the game and the flight sim community......quite obvious that I'm not in charge....all your childish threads would have been locked long ago...You dont like Clod....go back to your Hello Kitty online, go back to CoD, go back to I dont care....just go plz...its the best for everyone....

Quax
Jan-28-2014, 06:02
It is not about ground handling. Slipstream is the strongest propeller induced force of an propeller driven aeroplane. After 7 years of CloD development, you state that this is a minor thing?

I know BoS rollrates are too high. But at least they feel like planes in the air.

Georgio
Jan-28-2014, 06:42
As I understand it, it's not the spiral slipstream that causes the swing in ground handling, but the propeller torque, but you do have a point about the 7 years fruitless development of CLoD and the feeling of flight in BoS.


It is not about ground handling. Slipstream is the strongest propeller induced force of an propeller driven aeroplane. After 7 years of CloD development, you state that this is a minor thing?

I know BoS rollrates are too high. But at least they feel like planes in the air.

Quax
Jan-28-2014, 06:47
No Georgio, the torque rolls the plane. That is no factor on the ground. But lot of RL pilots mix this up. There are even PPL instructor pilots, who mix this up. Torque and gyro is modelled in CloD. But if you modell them without the stronger slip force, weird behaviour is the result. Try turns with CloD and you know what i mean.

Skoshi_Tiger
Jan-28-2014, 07:00
As I understand it, it's not the spiral slipstream that causes the swing in ground handling, but the propeller torque, but you do have a point about the 7 years fruitless development of CLoD and the feeling of flight in BoS.

Hi Georgio,

Welcome to the ATAG forum!

There should be a number of thing happening when you apply power. As you said there is torque roll where the plane should try to roll in the opposite direction than the motor is spinning and but also there is this slipstream effect where the air being thrown back by the propeller in a spiral tends to hit the vertical stabilizer and turn the aircraft to one side. Also when you have built up speed and raise the tail you also get the gyroscopic effect where the propeller acts as a gyroscope and a force kicks 90 degrees to the raising of the tail, it also creates a turning force in these aircraft.

I think the argument here is that it under modeled in CoD and to me seams over modeled in BoS.

I know its all personal opinions but to me the feeling of flight is better in CoD. BoS still has a long way to go. For me I can't get a feeling for the flight model until they decide to implement trivial things like elevator trim (in both aircraft).

Cheers!

Osprey
Jan-28-2014, 07:01
What I find incredibly sad is that when COD was under development by 1C we had these agenda driven dicks from the ROF community, a minority of course, but nonetheless agenda driven into badmouthing COD to death. Then they sensed 'victory' as 777 announced the successor, they had 'won'. I have noticed in my time on BOS forums the pure celebration of this and how BOS would show Luthier and Oleg how to run a project, how it would be better blah blah blah, and whilst TF were in the early stages of cracking the code they would post up their dreams of what was to come, often with a dig at COD in the post somewhere (tree collision, anti-aliasing, launcher crash - even though that was fixed in the final release). Yes, those bastards wallowed in victory.

Then it went quiet for a long time, and now we've come through some dark days with COD and things are really starting to pull together, the sim is gaining momentum and quality. Sure enough, they are back, like Quax here, just to try their best to destroy what they can. I couldn't agree more with Bliss's last post since people wil flock to the best in the end and as such I expect more of the same dicks to visit as TF release more and more tbh, and I'm happy to argue the toss with them.

I repeat that I have platinum BOS, but it hasn't gripped me one bit. I recall the ACG guys all went into trying it out when the alpha came out but I don't see that at all now, the only other game ACG guys seem to play is DayZ, and on Sundays we're really enjoying our campaign what with all of the mission complexity that COD offers us.

~S~ all.

vranac
Jan-28-2014, 07:31
It is not about ground handling. Slipstream is the strongest propeller induced force of an propeller driven aeroplane. After 7 years of CloD development, you state that this is a minor thing?

I know BoS rollrates are too high. But at least they feel like planes in the air.

Look Quax, I'm still waiting for an explanation of those videos I posted, or a link.

I can tell you also that there is a big thread about CloD FM, lots of assumptions there without single proof that something is wrong. Loft and Petrovich also were writing there explaining their approach.
Then one of the main programmers ex-MG, Dimas( he left before the release) joined to clarify some things.

And please tell me how is it possible to make snap roll in 1 sec only with rudder.

Or how is it possible to pool out LaGG out of dive (60*, 600 km/h) and loose only 250m when manual states 1400m loss of altitude. It is not only that some knowledgeable people calculated that
for a such maneuver load is 9-10 g but a clear statement from manual.


When the rotation of the aircraft stops because of gaining speed in a dive and coming out
of a dive aircraft spontaneously strive to go on higher angles of attack, where pressure on
the stick is rising. In that moment it's necessary to restrain the aircraft from transition at
high angles of attack and smoothly release the stick when coming out from a dive.
Attempt to speed up coming out from a dive can lead to repeating a stall. With accelerated coming out from a dive aircraft is throwing from wing to wing. That shows too hasty
movement of the stick when coming out of a dive. To avoid repeated stall in such cases it's necessary to push the stick little forward and then gently take the aircraft out of a dive.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jan-28-2014, 07:40
As I understand it, it's not the spiral slipstream that causes the swing in ground handling, but the propeller torque

It's a bit of both. And it varies from air-frame to airframe. This "binary" conversion (yes it is, no it's not) is a waste of breath. Each aircraft has its own mix of forces which also change with airspeed, prop pitch, AoA and RPM.


but you do have a point about the 7 years fruitless development of CLoD

And what is that point? Which 7 years are you talking about?
The fruit is here old chap, and many of us are having a damned good time tasting it.


and the feeling of flight in BoS.

Well, with this I cannot argue. I play my computer games from the comfort of an office chair in my house.... It's about as far removed from the "feeling of flight" as it gets.


Oh, and welcome. What drew you to this forum?

9./JG52 Ziegler
Jan-28-2014, 07:48
Within a year, it is my fervent hope that we have multiple excellent choices to fly. CLoD 5.0, BoS, DCS WW2, !!!! I hope that they are all brilliant and as much fun as CLoD has been and is at this moment. :thumbsup:
I'm sure that the dev teams are doing their absolute best to FM as realistically as possible with in the confines of a sim because as a RP, I can say that nothing will ever be just like real flight except RF.
That said, I can see excellence ahead (and an Oculus VR) in my future. How lucky are we! :salute:

Mattias
Jan-28-2014, 07:53
Within a year, it is my fervent hope that we have multiple excellent choices to fly. CLoD 5.0, BoS, DCS WW2, !!!! I hope that they are all brilliant and as much fun as CLoD has been and is at this moment. :thumbsup:
I'm sure that the dev teams are doing their absolute best to FM as realistically as possible with in the confines of a sim because as a RP, I can say that nothing will ever be just like real flight except RF.
That said, I can see excellence ahead (and an Oculus VR) in my future. How lucky are we! :salute:

+1 :thumbsup:

If I knew what to come back in the days when I was playing Lucasfilm's Their Finest Hour... I would probably have a heart attack :D

Cheers/m

LuseKofte
Jan-28-2014, 08:25
I like ATAG site , but this section make me afraid :recon:

I respect all that got a opinion on it, I got many second thought about BOS myself. But knowing what happened to CLOD. We should give this game a chance.
I am not saying everybody should buy it nor like it. But it is the way you present it .
By the way What is it with this man deleting all his post.

We should not have a frontline dividing the likers and dislikers. After all we do want to keep summing all of us.

This message will be self-destructed in 5 seconds .........5 Mississippi......4 Mississippi.....3 Mississippi.......

Headshot
Jan-28-2014, 08:33
I like ATAG site , but this section make me afraid :recon:

I respect all that got a opinion on it, I got many second thought about BOS myself. But knowing what happened to CLOD. We should give this game a chance.
I am not saying everybody should buy it nor like it. But it is the way you present it .
By the way What is it with this man deleting all his post.

We should not have a frontline dividing the likers and dislikers. After all we do want to keep summing all of us.

This message will be self-destructed in 5 seconds .........5 Mississippi......4 Mississippi.....3 Mississippi.......

+1

Mattias
Jan-28-2014, 08:42
I like ATAG site , but this section make me afraid :recon:

I respect all that got a opinion on it, I got many second thought about BOS myself. But knowing what happened to CLOD. We should give this game a chance.
I am not saying everybody should buy it nor like it. But it is the way you present it .
By the way What is it with this man deleting all his post.

We should not have a frontline dividing the likers and dislikers. After all we do want to keep summing all of us.

This message will be self-destructed in 5 seconds .........5 Mississippi......4 Mississippi.....3 Mississippi.......

This is not a thread bashing BoS, it's a thread about one guy claiming spiral slipstream is not modelled in Clod and some others claiming it is. But it went a little off rails once the guy started deleting his posts and it's now a very confusing thread :D

Maybe time to lock it after all.

Cheers/m

ATAG_Snapper
Jan-28-2014, 09:01
This is not a thread bashing BoS, it's a thread about one guy claiming spiral slipstream is not modelled in Clod and some others claiming it is. But it went a little off rails once the guy started deleting his posts and it's now a very confusing thread :D

Maybe time to lock it after all.

Cheers/m

Yep, I agree.

Yesterday I closed the thread because I felt all had been said on the topic and there were signs of the OP's thread going downhill. Ironically, I believed the mud would come sliding down and bury the OP, but as we all know - no favour ever goes unpunished! LOL

After a quick conference with Admin we decided no mud had actually been slung, but the decision to reopen this thread was mine alone. Unfortunately, the OP decided after the reopening to delete all his posts. Worse, he's chosen to drag his BS into another forum, which I truly regret. I've been a member of SimHQ for over a decade and it's a fine forum with many knowledgeable and good people.

I've also put a ban on the OP, pending ATAG Admin's concurrence to make it permanent. Despite his obvious knowledge on aviation matters, he's clearly got an agenda as a troll and troublemaker. It's a shame, because he could have made some valuable contributions here.

ATAG_Colander
Jan-28-2014, 09:12
Just an FYI, this is what the OP meant:
7176