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View Full Version : Is it time for the Spit IIa to be made available on the server ?



ATAG_Torian
Nov-27-2011, 22:39
Hi guys,
As some of u may have noticed lately there is a glaring difference now on the
server as far as 109 v Spit kill death ratio. With Mk.MrX & co routinely getting 5 or
more kills per sortie with frequently NO deaths for the length of the mission, it's
becoming harder to justify disallowing the IIa. The firepower of the E4 is just
horrific and a spit or Hurri just can't compete on a level playing field with it in a
dogfight. And to be fair the IIa still has the carburetted engine and the same guns
as a Ia or Hurri.
Please guys, give those of us who like flying for the Brits a bit of a chance. I think
the reason that so many are choosing to fly blue is they are sick and tired of being
cannon fodder and go for the easy to fly uber armed 109.
ATAG_Torian

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-27-2011, 23:01
A fair argument. I can only imagine the hue and cry that would go up! Perhaps let it be available at Hawkinge and Lympne only.

Blue Blighter
Nov-28-2011, 06:22
Ha-ha! You do not even F-15 will not help. Unless you're fly the team and with the connection, will the meat. And yet - do not stubbornly reappear under vulch. ;)

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-28-2011, 06:58
I won't get into the politics of it as I am definitely a blue flyer at heart, a couple of observations though, last week I the aim of prepairing my self for the multi squad campaign I jumped in the 1a to get a reasonable feel for her. Flying out of Ramsgate I climbed up to 15k before entering the combat area over multiple sorties. By the end of the night I had totalled 11 kills, 2 of which were bombers and had not been shot down until the last sortie in which a 109 took out my engine on the initial merge. I am no expert with the spit 1a but in no way felt handicapped through using it. I would bet that the reason the scores are so biased to the blue side is because we generally take the fight to them, catch them low on energy/ altittude, plus the bit of vulching that distorts the true tallies. Heck I quite often wrack up 10 kills for sometimes no losses flying the 110 and I should be easy meat for any red flyer worth his salt!
I would not like to see the IIa included to compensate for the lack of smarts displayed by a good deal of red pilots. Anyone who continually spawns at the Hawkinge/Lympnie mixmaster and expects the results to be different is living in a dreamworld!

Cheers
Craig

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 07:11
Just my $0.02, I fly the Rotol as it is faster than the Spit Ia, which in itself is wrong. I know it's the FM and not the server, I actually love flying in your server and think you've all done a phenomenal job. :dthumb:

I have taken to flying high above the channel as going low over Hawkenge/Lympne is a slaughterhouse. I go high, hunt bombers, and pray that there is no escort. If there is my only option is to make one pass on the bombers, roll, dive, and pray.


I would bet that the reason the scores are so biased to the blue side is because we generally take the fight to them, catch them low on energy/ altittude, plus the bit of vulching that distorts the true tallies.

Try doing that in a Spit/Hurri...we don't last one pass over the flakfest over the Blue Airfields. I tried it yesterday with another Hurri and a Spit, all of us were down in under a minute. We would take the fight to the French side but it is suicide...period.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-28-2011, 08:28
I have taken to flying high above the channel as going low over Hawkenge/Lympne is a slaughterhouse. I go high, hunt bombers, and pray that there is no escort. If there is my only option is to make one pass on the bombers, roll....

I would think that when attacking a bomber group with escorts this is par for the course, if the escorting fighters have not positioned themselfs so as they are at an advantage against attacking fighters then they have no point being there!

With regards to german flack I can not honestly comment as I have not spent any time over the French fields while flying red recently. The flack over Britain is no slouch though either, I know that I and several others spend a fair amount of effort suppressing it though. It is a pretty common occurrence to return across the channel on one engine and well shot up!

Cheers
Craig

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-28-2011, 08:34
Ha-ha! You do not even F-15 will not help. Unless you're fly the team and with the connection, will the meat. And yet - do not stubbornly reappear under vulch. ;)

Ouch! :laugh1

But you're right. I've listened/seen on chat the fellow RAF pilots complaining about being continually vulched when they continually respawn at Hawkinge or Lympne. Sheer madness!

ATAG_Torian
Nov-28-2011, 08:53
I would not like to see the IIa included to compensate for the lack of smarts displayed by a good deal of red pilots. Anyone who continually spawns at the Hawkinge/Lympnie mixmaster and expects the results to be different is living in a dreamworld!


Is it inconceivable that at some point in our sim experience we would like to
dogfight with other fighters ?
There are a few of us with reasonable experience in a Spit or
Hurri who don't spawn in at the butcher shop (aka Hawkinge) but rather choose
Ramsgate/Manston, climb well above and try to engage the enemy fighters carving
up the less experienced at the abattoir. Now this does bring some success
but with advent of MK.Mr.X and his well organised Russian hit squad it doesn't
matter how u try to engage them u will inevitably lose "e" in the Ia and Hurri and
once u have lost "e" u are fodder. They will just climb away and B&Z until they
hit u with a mineshell. These Russians are ALL on comms together at the Repka TS
server (I've been there and seen them all on together....which is actually a good
thing dont get me wrong) and u can see their tactics using a decoy to drain ur "e"
and then bouncing u. Kudos to them. Speaking of tactics, one they have taken to using is to land a plane on the Hawkinge field which then focusses the white flak
all over the field and not on their airborne comrades which then creates confusion
for an incoming friendly thinking there is a low flyer over the base leading them to
be jumped on by a bandit when they go lower to investigate. Anyway, the fighter
in me would like to see a few deaths recorded next to Mr.X and his minions names
(instead of the usual 25:0) but there is no way even an organised group of us can
do it with the current plane set. It is also difficult to get an organised group on
allied comms particularly in my time zone which happens to be the same zone that Mr.X & co is in and they are ALL on comms (GMT +9.5hrs).
So Trumps I feel that it is not necessarily a "lack of smarts" to want to do
something other than shoot bombers down or run away. The Russians have upped
the ante and freely gloat over their superiority. And for goodness sake, the IIa
still has the carburetted engine and no cannons !! Give us the means to take the
fight up to them or we might as well ask them to at least start using condoms and lube on us.
For anyone interested, u can fly a IIa on the Repka "Operation Sea-Lion" full
realism server. Not a historical map but some fun to be had.
ATAG_Torian

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 08:53
I would think that when attacking a bomber group with escorts this is par for the course, if the escorting fighters have not positioned themselfs so as they are at an advantage against attacking fighters then they have no point being there!

You are correct, however even if we engage a 109 and make him break for the deck, he has such an E advantage/climb rate, that he is back on someone's 6 in a matter of moments.

I'm not complaining and accept he limitations of the FM's at this point. It is rather uneven though, just as it was during the BoB. I usually will spawn at Manston or up north close to London as Lympne is a meatgrinder.

At some point the Spit IIa will have to be added (just as it was in Real Life). I am going to be patient...but I do wholeheartedly agree with Torain and hope to see the Spit II sooner rather than later.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-28-2011, 08:57
There are a couple of things in the works that will hopefully put this discussion to rest:

1) the devs are reportedly looking at the FM's of all the aircraft, including the British fighters. The Spit 1a should be at least 20 mph faster than the Rotol Hurricane at sea level. I'm just hoping the devs don't simply slow down the Rotol!!!!

2) the Rotol Hurricane sheds parts in a dive faster than an old shovelhead Harley! I'm hoping that will be addressed - it's nice to have ailerons and an elevator when approaching 400 mph! :)

3) I believe Bliss is looking at flak concentrations at certain airfields. It is suicide to fly over Axis airfields at present, as it should be. So, too, it should be over the Coastal Allied airfields.

I believe the Spitfire IIa's were introduced into the Battle of Britain fairly late into the game (anyone got a date on that?). Although many pilots of both sides maintain "it's the pilot, not the plane", that argument then falls apart when an objection is made to the IIa being introduced (the IIa is certainly not a "F15"!). To my mind, I'd rather get the Ia fixed, strengthen the Rotol Hurri, and get some more of that nasty white flak installed at Hawkinge and Lympne.

The IIa in CoD is said to have the most accurate FM of the Allied fighters, but if it was not in common usage for the majority of the Battle of Britain, then it's not historically accurate to have IIa's dominating the Allied side.

ATAG_Torian
Nov-28-2011, 09:24
Try doing that in a Spit/Hurri...we don't last one pass over the flakfest over the Blue Airfields. I tried it yesterday with another Hurri and a Spit, all of us were down in under a minute. We would take the fight to the French side but it is suicide...period.

+1
The speed the 109s B&Z at over the English fields can't be matched by a Ia or
Hurri over the German fields.
U might score a ground kill on a German field if ur lucky but
it's inevitably a suicide run. On the other hand, look at how many sorties Mr.X &
friends make over Hawkinge. How many times do u see flak taking them down ?
That's not an issue with them but it illustrates the glaring inequality of the planes or
yet another thing a "smart" pilot shouldn't do....don't attack German bases, don't
spawn at Hawkinge. At least we have some do's....do run away from a 109.
We should all play fishing simulator. We shall catch big fish...and we can cook
them in it too :Grin:

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 10:26
From here: http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0011.html


Spitfire Mk I's remained until June 1940, but until then, thirty of them had been equipped with twin 20mm cannons at the expense of the .303 Brownings. To distinguish the two, the Spitfire Mk I's equipped with machine guns were designated IA's, while those that had the cannons fitted were designated IB's. In all, 1,537 Spitfire Mk IA's were built and 30 Spitfire Mk IB's. The Spitfire IB's were not favoured with pilots, the cannons were often jamming leaving them a defenceless aircraft and pilots requested to be returned to the Spitfire IA's.

At the outbreak of the Second World War, the Mk I's were the mainstay of Fighter Command along with the Hurricane. When air support was needed in Norway and in France, Fighter Command sent only one squadron to Norway and ten to France. By this time Britain had lost some 500 fighters in this early part of the war. The Mk I Spitfire was to continue service throughout the Battle of Britain, and was a worthy opponent of its German equivalent, the Messerschmitt Me 109. But in August 1940, at the height of the battle, the Spitfire Mk I gave way to a faster and more powerful Mk II with its Merlin Mk XII power plant. Most of these MK II's were to arrive after the Battle of Britain, although some squadrons had been allocated them in late August and during September 1940. The first recorded Mk II being shot down was with 611 Squadron on September 11th 1940.

By now, the Supermarine Spitfire, with not only the specifications, but as further testing of the aircraft proved, was a fighter aircraft that was superior in every department to anything that was flying at the time. Sleek and swift, maneuverable, strong and well constructed.

The Merlin engine had received a power increase to 1,175 horsepower and was designated the Merlin XII. The differentiating versions of A's and B's continued and production of these totaled 751 Mk IIA's and 170 Mk IIB's.

From here: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/Battle_of_Britain/AP22.htm


The Battle of Britain began on July 10,1940, when the Luftwaffe began attacking shipping in the English Channel and limited bombing missions against RAF bases. Although Germany suffered greater losses than England in this period (248 vs. 148), the British were quickly losing experienced pilots. On August 1, Hitler issued Fuhrer Directive No.17, which read: "I intend to intensify air and sea warfare against the English homeland...The Luftwaffe is to overpower the Royal Air Force in the shortest possible time." Operation Sea Lion officially began on August 8 with orders for intensified attacks directed at airfields and radar stations. Aldertag, originally planned for August 10 but delayed because of bad weather, was August 13. On that day, the Luftwaffe flew 1,485 sorties; losing 39 airplanes while the British lost 15. The Germans also knocked out a number of radar stations, shutting off the eyes of Fighter Command. Although most of these belonged to Coastal Command and the few that did belong to Fighter Command were repaired quickly, the Luftwaffe still maintained an edge for the next several days. Commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering made several adjustments in tactics and for the remainder of the month, the RAF, although winning on paper, was losing aircraft and pilots faster than it could afford. It was three weeks away from defeat.




So the question is, are we looking at July - August 1940 or August - October 1940? Is there a way to limit the number of IIa's? Or only make them available from airfields around London causing a delay in getting them to the front? It is not a question of weather or not they were there, they were, just in limited numbers.

It is also quite possible that a limited number of IIa's in the server would stem the tide of vulching over Hawkenge and Lympne.

ATAG_Torian
Nov-28-2011, 10:31
then it's not historically accurate to have IIa's dominating the Allied side.

Ok, lets just take a cold hard look at the facts of life here.
ATAG is running a dogfight server. There is little historical about what is happening
there. When did well organised bands of experienced Russian 109 pc sim pilots
base rape Hawkinge over and over and over and over again in a 7 hour period ???
Historical would be 109s escort large groups of bombers to their targets. Spits and
Hurris are scrambled. Spits go high to take on fighters, Hurris take down bombers.
109s didn't have the hang time over England to on vulching joyflights willy nilly.
The krouts were too well organised for that and needed their fighters primarily for
escort duty.
The closest thing to historical in CloD at the moment is what has been happening on Sunday evenings on another server for a couple of hours.
I know what u mean and it would be nice if everyone confined themselves to doing historical things on the server but at the moment what IS actually happening is a
bunch of Russians has turned our server into their own private duck shoot and we are letting them get away with it in the name of "historical". They can't be
stopped because "smart" pilots run away from them because we don't have the
firepower to counter them. They are not treating it as historical. They are using
the best plane in a GAME to satisfy their egos and the best plane in the GAME to
counter them is not permitted. They are laughing all the way to the stats bank
and all we can do is stand in awe of these amazing, heroic masters of the
universe. Give me a break! These guys are racking up kill after kill after kill in
minutes and this is historical ?!?!?
I repeat, ATAG is running a dogfight server not a historical mission based server.
Sorry to pee on the bonfire but that's the reality what is actually happening.
ATAG_Torian

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 11:07
Great evaluation of Spit I vs. 109:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Please pay special attention to the charts. Yes I know this is an E-3, however it does illustrate quite well how much the FM's are skewed at this point in time.

As I said, I'm going to be patient and see what happens whenever the next patch comes out. Hopefully things will be a bit better balanced.

And yes, I completely understand Torain's, and every other Red pilots frustration. When an individual has 20 some odd flights and over 200 kills it is an issue. Whether it is a cheat, an exploit, or whatever it is ... it is not historical or accurate & it is quite wrong :no. I believe that for those of us who fly Red regularly, to see nothing being done to stem the situation is the foundation of the frustration. I'm not saying that there not discussions or things happening behind the scenes, but good standards are being taken advantage of, or "gamed", and we're powerless & neutered seemingly by the exclusion of the Mk II. If it were introduced we would have the tool necessary to handle the job ourselves :go:

I'm trying to be objective by looking at historical time frames on when the Mk IIa was introduced, how big a role did it have, and how to properly introduce it.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-28-2011, 11:24
Seems to me the biggest grievance is the tactics and teamwork employed by the Russian players! Go ahead have your IIa, but that still isn't going to save you from getting gangbanged by a group that communicates well and sets them selves up to win. Must admit that the sacrificial plane landed at the field though a cunning plan is a bit beyond the realms of sporting gameplay ;)

Cheers
Craig

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-28-2011, 12:13
@Torian: first off, I would be the first one to jump into a IIa if they become available.
1) I also fly with my canopy open (more for visibility than "SONAR" -- but I have literally dodged a bullet because I heard a DB601 behind me in the nick of time). That's pretty non-historical other than landing.

2) I've also dropped the resolution of CoD so I can at least spot other aircraft now to plan my tactics or avoid getting bounced (if I stay alert). Some consider THAT "gamey", but if I bought a 50" LCD the larger pixels at higher resolutions would also give me better spotting ability. Plus I get better/smoother framerates at lower res, so there I stay.

3) I changed that LODshow value in the conf.ini file from "0" -----> "1" so aircraft don't temporarily disappear as you close on them.

So, I'm not totally locked into "historical, just trying to look at all facets of the issue.

@Deacon: thanks for the links & info, especially on the IIa introduction timeline. One thing we all know is that it's smart to anticipate possible objections. If the E-4's are in the game, then, too, should the IIa's if the "historical" card is played.

@Trumps: smart tactics ARE king, no question. Of late there is a growing group of "RAF regulars" showing up in the evenings, all on Teamspeak -- sometimes we've been lucky to have you in that group, too! ;) Although not nearly as organized as the Repka-Russians (useful intel there, Torian), this group has been growing ever more successful in downing 109's through good Comms and tactics. Not to the level of the R-R's yet, but given a tool such as the IIa that more closely matches the E-4 in overall "fightability", the outcomes could be interesting.

One other thing comes to mind: we'd hate to lose the Repka-Russians should they decide to move on in search of greater challenges. The IIa just might present them with such a challenge.

Whiskey
Nov-28-2011, 12:18
I would like to see the IIa included. I'm no expert on either plane as I have never flown either in RL nor am I a pilot, but as it is now, it seems red is flying with one arm behind its back...the Spit Ia is a good plane but nothing as it should be, the 109 is on the same field, not modeled as it should be.

But as standards go (across the board), I would say that the 109 is closer to spec than the spit Ia is atm, therefore it has that slight edge.

As for tactics against Mr.X and his gang....the Spit IIa would certainly give you the tool you need to implement an organized squadron based sortie to meet them. It would probably improve the chances of success of such a sortie. But the bottom line to it is having a good organized group, good disciplined communications, good wingmanship, a good plan, a great flight leader and numbers (have more than they do :Grin:).

Just my 2 cents worth.

Whiskey

ATAG_EvangelusE
Nov-28-2011, 12:23
As for the Spit2, introducing that will simply create another series of threads demanding it to be removed or create more low level attacks on any airfield that it spawns from.

Even if it were included, over the Hawkinge area I cannot get an acceptable level of game performance. Warping, slideshow fps, freezes make it impossible for me (or great reluctance) to go anywhere near it below 8k.

I just hope the forthcoming update fixes these performance issues as well as improving the FMs in general.

Ohms
Nov-28-2011, 12:24
Trumps I have to kindly disagree with your last comment.I have no problem with MR X and his friends working as a team and using the aircraft to there advantage they should as anyone would,the problem is the FM's as we all know.In the past a suggestion was too have a very limited amount of Spit 2's available until Fm's are corrected.This may help fight against the present issue.This maybe a mute point if the FM's are fixed in the next patch.As you can see alot of people are looking hard to improve what they can do improve their chances against very good 109 pilots.I have flown with many REDS who climb as high as possible out of Rams/manston area only for the 109's to go higher.

Dutch
Nov-28-2011, 12:37
I say let's have the IIa in limited numbers, as long as the E4 is also in limited numbers.

I thought it was a mistake previously to base the IIa's further from Hawkinge/Lympne, because this meant that they had time to gain altitude and energy on top of their undoubted performance advantage.

Let's have them, but for now only based at Hawkinge/Lympne to limit the 'E' advantage.

This might have an added bonus in that blue people might be less inclined to continually head for Hawkinge too. I mean, It's a big map!:Grin:

ATAG_JTDawg
Nov-28-2011, 12:44
My 2 cents, as for the spit let it in! as many of you know i'm not a fan of vulching!!!But it is part of the game. Even if spit is let in ,it won't matter if guys don't fly together!!!! An work as a team... That's why same guys on t.s. every night working as groups or teams, =watching your m'8 back. The guys that do this are getting 1 to 2 kills a mission, on average, I still can't believe some dont use ts as they have already increased thier disadvantange.!!! WE DON'T KNOW YOUR IN TROUBLE. as a admin on norwegian server -forum ,Which was on 46 side but still around ,i made alot of maps for the server. The other side always says flak tougher = i put same guns both sides in same amounts = still complain!!!! Tried to get plane sets fair =still complain, No matter what you do some people will still cry foul!!!! = you can't please everybody ,an never will !!!--------- I might try the spit out ,but will stick with my rotol, an believe with more time my rotol will catch the 109 4 model, with fine tuning of what i have, trim ,mix prop etc. i'm up to 278 mph, now just a we bit more!!! If it's in the game let it fly!!!!, They will still get shot down, as does every plane in the game.!!! 1 plane will not change a thing , or how some base campers play!!! an depending on the foe an tactics , an your skill level i dont believe the out come will change by adding a plane!!!! = buddy up don't go alone!!! And as far as mr x i've fought him 5 times got his bait twice, an put some rounds in him only once= 0 for 5, but each time i learn an watch ,an soon he will be mine. !!!! now 1 last thing , i dont like the way alambash plays ! but thats the way he plays , do i think the lag that surrounds him is fishy, when your on his 6== yes avg. 8 or 9 kills per sortie. but inlines of proof 0. :salute:

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-28-2011, 13:34
Hi Gents,

I've actually been thinking about this for a little over a week. As someone who flies both sides, the 109 is dominant over everything else besides the spitIIa (assuming CO-E). As with anything the pilot has much to do with this, but you can turn the tables on someone up high (where everyone should be flying :Grin:) fairly easily with a 109. From then, the hurri/spit slowly runs out of energy, has to go down, constantly turning and avoiding (on the defensive).

As we all know the devs are working on FM's amongst the plethora of other problems, but the low altitude stuff near the front of England is getting ridiculous. There actually is twice the AAA on the front of England than France's forward airfields, but the problem is if the Luftwaffe bombers are left unchecked they will soon take a huge majority of that away by bombing - The same applies to the AAA on the Blue side with the red bombers. The main issue is, unlike IL246, we can't exactly setup AAA skill levels, unless we want to use GroundAI and that would really kill your FPS. We are still trying to determine the best AAA for damage as well.

With that said, I agree there needs to be SpitIIa's to offset the problems at the Front fields in England. I've spent all morning creating a script that will limit the SpitIIa to 5 allowed at a time. They are at Manston. On the 6th spitIIa being spawned in, you'll see a warning message saying the limit has been reached/plane will be disabled. In 10 seconds of that warning message all your control surfaces will fall off :Grin:

I don't think anyone will disagree that the SpitIIa is FAR superior over any of the FM's in the game atm, so they won't be unlimited. But having 5 of them in the air at any given time, should make the blue side think twice about constant sweeps over England at 5 ft off the ground.

Now be happy - and go kill each other! :laugh:

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 13:48
:salute:


Thank you, sir.

ATAG_Septic
Nov-28-2011, 14:17
Hi Chaps,

I enter this discussion from a slightly different perspective. Many of you are very skilled and make very good and sound points above, I am less skilled and make some very average points below;

After seven years away from IL2, I'm not very good at simulated flying. I have a preferrence for flying red on line but enjoy blue too. To me, this game is merely a means of filling time in an enjoyable way, I've no axe to grind.

I tend to fly;

Rotol Hurricane, which I find stable and relatively quick compared to the Spit 1a but stalls too easily for me in a turn or scissors fight. The Spit 1a is very manouvarable but too slow. Neither has cannons and only about fifteen seconds of ammunition. The Blenheim is just too much of a challenge at present. I perceive survival as victory in these three types. I don't expect kills.

110, fun to fly, fast in a dive, can bomb and then hunt bombers. Very effective guns and cannons (about 50 seconds of ammunition for the machine guns?). I feel that I only get shot down in air to air combat in this plane if I choose to. The 109, fast, simple to fly, great weapons, loads of ammo, can even bomb in it! I rarely get shot down in one but I still fly this machine defensively. I hope for but often don't acheive results in these aeroplanes.

I'm currently becoming disheartened about flying red. I'm already sufficiently disadvantaged and lack the advanced skills necessary to meet the 109s in combat if the pilot is at all proficient (and many of them are). So, with just a little regret it's blue for me more often than not at the moment.

I would like a Spit 11a as I might be able to fly more agrresively but I have witnessed how for some their enjoyment is all about the numbers and anything that upsets their chosen means of obtaining these numbers causes them distress, which leads to anger. I have no criticism of this whatsoever, to each his own, I acknowledge their angst. I am able but increasingly less willing though to provide a relatively easy target for the numbers focused blue flyers. The current red aeroplanes make that task a little too easy for them and therefore less enjoyable for me. I'm more content offering the proficient red pilots an easy blue target because at least there is hope! :)

So, it's learn the blue types abit more whilst trying to learn the necessary survival skills in the red aeroplanes, I just don't enjoy the latter so much with the current plane-sets on the server.

EDIT; I just saw your post Bliss, thanks for all the time you put into this Old Bean, it's very much appreciated.

Phew, I need a pint!

Cheers chaps.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-28-2011, 15:16
Cool as Bliss, itwill be interesting to see the effect that this has on things.
One thing that I think would really improve this game would be for the beaufighter to be made flyable, the biggest thing missing for the reds is a heavy fighter that can carry bombs, and raise hell down low over France, that would really set the cat amongst the pidgeons ;)

Cheers
Craig

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-28-2011, 16:21
Cool as Bliss, itwill be interesting to see the effect that this has on things.
One thing that I think would really improve this game would be for the beaufighter to be made flyable, the biggest thing missing for the reds is a heavy fighter that can carry bombs, and raise hell down low over France, that would really set the cat amongst the pidgeons ;)

Cheers
Craig


~S~ Trumps

I was speaking with a few guys on Red comms this morning about how cool this will be in 5-6 years as they add more and more to the sim. FW-190's, P47's, Ponies, Late Spits, -38's...I'm foaming at the mouth :eek:

XE9O
Nov-28-2011, 17:03
I agree with Dog, The Russians are smart and wing together. If you are by yourself you are dead, we must at least wing in pairs. Vulching is fine move to another base , it happened in real war.

The Atag server is a great server and you cant make everyone happy!:dthumb:

JG6_BigglesCDN
Nov-28-2011, 19:32
I like Bliss's idea. My father always taught me "Only a poor workman blames his tools". Seems to me the current red pilots are doing pretty well and if we want to do better organization is the key.

Cheers!

B

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-28-2011, 22:14
While I really disagree with the "bring in more firepower to compensate for skill" idea that this seems to be, I'd offer that 5 on the map should be changed to 10% of total planes for the other side. 5 Spit IIs when there's 7 blues on would be a totally dominating situation, Kodiak has already come out with scripts to limit planes based off player numbers, just need to tweak it.

Unfortunately, this is a result of blue's working together to a greater extent than I've seen the reds do, which seems to punish the camaraderie we've been developing.

Any way for the Who's Online page on the forum to show what planes are in the game, so I'll know when to play SP?

Ohms
Nov-28-2011, 22:56
Rudelmann i'm sorry but i must disagree with the premise that it's only teamwork that is holding back the reds.There is a core group of 10+ guys that coordinate when ever we are together and many more that join in when they are online.I believe Bliss's comment pretty much hit the nail on the head,but that being said i can see the logic of your % of aircraft proposal.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-28-2011, 22:59
OK, I'm a little puzzled here. Blues have the E4 which outclimbs and out dives the Rotol and Ia. It has massive firepower that outguns both RAF planes in terms of cannon fire destructiveness and duration of fire. The E4 has fuel injection so it can bunt into a dive -- the Rotol and 1a must half-roll first losing time and frequently losing sight of the enemy. Yet the Blues maintain that it's their superior tactics, not the superior aircraft performance, that accounts for the huge disparity in kill ratios.

Fine.

Until the IIa is introduced with a more powerful engine which still must be half-rolled into a dive and is still saddled with a mere 14 seconds of inferior .303 rifle rounds. Suddenly "superior tactics" fly right out of the window! The silly Reds who insist on respawning at Hawkinge to get repeatedly vulched will suddenly dominate because of.......silly SUPERIOR tactics? Or does having a machine like the IIa that can now keep up with an E4 in climb, dive, and level flight cause the Blues a problem -- despite the IIa's inferior armament and carburation?

So, which is it? Superior machines or superior tactics??? Just as the Blues maintain that the Reds simply need to fly & fight smarter in their current Ia's and Rotols vs the E4's, so it should apply that the Blues need only to maintain their superior tactics flying their E4's vs the Reds' IIa's to prevail. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. At least the E4's are not limited to five machines!

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-28-2011, 22:59
While I really disagree with the "bring in more firepower to compensate for skill" idea that this seems to be, I'd offer that 5 on the map should be changed to 10% of total planes for the other side. 5 Spit IIs when there's 7 blues on would be a totally dominating situation, Kodiak has already come out with scripts to limit planes based off player numbers, just need to tweak it.

Unfortunately, this is a result of blue's working together to a greater extent than I've seen the reds do, which seems to punish the camaraderie we've been developing.

Any way for the Who's Online page on the forum to show what planes are in the game, so I'll know when to play SP?

It has nothing to do with compensating for skill. The 1st 3 months of this sim, the only thing I flew was red. Now I've gotten quite a bit of time on the blue side, and I can say without a doubt, a 109 holds all the cards (minus the spitIIa). You can literally toy with a spit1a, and virtually do the same thing to a hurricane. (Just takes more patience). If blues fly like they do in the 46' setting, they'll hardly have any problems. But the reason we see 109's turn fighting, bleeding off all their E, fighting 2 ft. off the ground, etc., is because they can quite simply, get away with it. With a SpitIIa, they can't.

I flew 5 hours tonight. I had 16 kills (only 2 of which were AI bombers). Many were SpitIIa's. I died twice. 1 death was due to a parachute failure. The other was due to a collision with another plane. Now this isn't because of my skill. It's simply because I flew the 109 like how I'd normally have to in old IL2.

Fly on the red side for 3 months, and I'd bet you'd change your disagreement in a heartbeat.

I'm no programmer and spent 5 hours of my day just making a script to limit them to 5. I'll look into a % code when I can.

ATAG_Torian
Nov-28-2011, 23:10
It has nothing to do with compensating for skill. The 1st 3 months of this sim, the only thing I flew was red. Now I've gotten quite a bit of time on the blue side, and I can say without a doubt, a 109 holds all the cards (minus the spitIIa). You can literally toy with a spit1a, and virtually do the same thing to a hurricane. (Just takes more patience). If blues fly like they do in the 46' setting, they'll hardly have any problems. But the reason we see 109's turn fighting, bleeding off all their E, fighting 2 ft. off the ground, etc., is because they can quite simply, get away with it. With a SpitIIa, they can't.

I flew 5 hours tonight. I had 16 kills (only 2 of which were AI bombers). Many were SpitIIa's. I died twice. 1 death was due to a parachute failure. The other was due to a collision with another plane. Now this isn't because of my skill. It's simply because I flew the 109 like how I'd normally have to in old IL2.

Fly on the red side for 3 months, and I'd bet you'd change your disagreement in a heartbeat.

I'm no programmer and spent 5 hours of my day just making a script to limit them to 5. I'll look into a % code when I can.

Thank you Bliss. Common sense and reason prevail.

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-28-2011, 23:47
I did fly them when you had them on before, and I could easily climb up to a 109, reverse on it, run it down in seconds, fire (not kill it, guns do suck, but that's historical), climb up past it, and just accelerate. I probably had 20+ kills, and I can remember getting hit (not killed, just hit) once.

I think the real problem is the Hurri/Spits are reversed. By all accounts, the Hurri should out-turn the Spit, which it doesn't, and the Spit should out-run the Hurri, which again it doesn't.

Reason for your success today in a 109 probably has to do with lack of real experience with the IIa's. Even if you play them SP, there's a huge difference in attacking AI 109s and real ones. When people have more stick time in them compared to what we have now in the other planes, you'll see people learning the curves and pull required to truly make that plane untouchable again.

I'm not trying to flame here, or start a war, but having all the cards isn't quite accurate for the Emils, there's no difference between models, so can't state E-1 vs E-4 or whatever, they fly exactly the same. We have a much more difficult firing solution if you have cannons, and even less firepower if you take the E-1. We can't turn with either plane, although it is more forgiving at the snap than either Hurri or Spit (which is really pilot dependent). We don't have the power of the Merlins at altitude (at least not the Hurri, I haven't really flown a Spit up there). We don't have the instant flaps (watch how Mr.X and Firefighter used them in the online competition). There are ways to beat a 109 even 1v1 starting even, but there's not going to be a chance with the IIa's.

A really tight restriction will be needed for the late night crew. There's a lot of times I only get to fly when there's less than 10 people on the server, if all the reds are IIa's, that's going to leave only Repka and the III/JG27 servers.

Plus, its going to most definitely start a flame war on the banana forums... Can't help it, you have the most popular place to play, there will be a lot of blues upset, and reds defending it....

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 09:41
It has nothing to do with compensating for skill. The 1st 3 months of this sim, the only thing I flew was red. Now I've gotten quite a bit of time on the blue side, and I can say without a doubt, a 109 holds all the cards (minus the spitIIa). You can literally toy with a spit1a, and virtually do the same thing to a hurricane. (Just takes more patience). If blues fly like they do in the 46' setting, they'll hardly have any problems. But the reason we see 109's turn fighting, bleeding off all their E, fighting 2 ft. off the ground, etc., is because they can quite simply, get away with it. With a SpitIIa, they can't.

Great post, I have to agree 100% -ly. Just noticed the Mk.IIa and came in here for more intel - obviously it will cause some rage within orthodox Blue pilots but please don't worry about that too much. As long as you keep it reasonable and limited as it is at the moment, it will help a lot to balance things out. I like it a lot that way. Actually this and last changes (more AAA at the exposed airfields) will make certain people think twice about coming low and attack RAF on their bases (alambash I know you only read Russian so Хуй тебе в рот! pal). As Bliss says, 109s need to watch out a bit more and after today's flying it has moved from AirQuake towards some normal DF stuff at various alts = :dthumb:

We'll see how it goes, thanks to ATAG team for all your hard work, great server chaps!

*edit* - I see my post can be seen a bit biased - tbh I am actually a blue pilot and I fly RAF a lot on ATAG to even up the teams. I honestly recommend anyone complaining about RAF a/c abilities to fly them for say a month or two to see things from the other side of the barricade ;) Just as in 1946, I fly EVERYTHING and I can only laugh about these arguments of strictly blue / strictly red pilots claiming ridiculous stuff. Give it a shot blue guys, you'll be back in your E-4s in no time just like these Russian guys :D

VF/A-Mjoelner
Nov-29-2011, 09:48
10 players on as we speak, four 109's constantly hangin over Manston shooting up MK2's on the ground, in the hangars and on their take off runs, now you need Mk2's to cover MK2's taking off LOL

Cheers

VO101_Tom
Nov-29-2011, 10:05
Hello guys.

Earlier I made a comparison in 1C forum. Click. (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=347529&postcount=29)

Compared to the 109, the ratio shows that the Rotol Hurri is better than it would be (-2% < -9%). The D-5-20 Hurri is about the same, and the Spit is worse (-16% > -10%). And it is simply not true that the RAF aircraft turning worse than the LW. Anyone who says it does not know how to fly them. After all, you put a plane, not only in speed, but all other parameters are much better than any other aircraft. Like SpitVB vs. E-4B in IL-2. I have to say, not a wise move. :no
Why do not you give them air start (edit: I mean: instead of Spit II)? It also would be a great advantage...

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 10:07
10 players on as we speak, four 109's constantly hangin over Manston shooting up MK2's on the ground, in the hangars and on their take off runs, now you need Mk2's to cover MK2's taking off LOL

Cheers

To be fair, this only happens when certain Russian kids come over to play. Don't spawn at an airfield that is being gangbanged, simple as that. Maidstone is free I bet.

Edit:

Allegory of German 109 pilot fighting Mk.Ia realising it's a Mk.IIa in the process:

http://i33.tinypic.com/30hpqxk.gif

ATAG_Torian
Nov-29-2011, 10:26
Reason for your success today in a 109 probably has to do with lack of real experience with the IIa's. Even if you play them SP, there's a huge difference in attacking AI 109s and real ones. When people have more stick time in them compared to what we have now in the other planes, you'll see people learning the curves and pull required to truly make that plane untouchable again.
I just have to disagree. The reason would be there is now some parity between E4's and IIa's. The pilot in a favourable position gets the kill. The E4 still has an efficient rate of climb that a IIa can match if well managed. A poorly managed climb after an E4 will be accordingly punished as I was just this evening. On the other hand a couple of E4s tried a turn fight which wasn't going well and then tried a high climb. Some better engine and climb management on those occasions let me get some
good rounds into them (no kill). "Untouchable" !?!?...hyperbole is best left to
politicians. A IIa can certainly be touched just like an E4 can now be.


We have a much more difficult firing solution if you have cannons, and even less firepower if you take the E-1.
And how many take the E-1 as of late ?? Your argument about more stick time in a IIa bringing better results applies with equal validity to the E4. Since its advent I know more pilots have become more savvy with their use of the cannons with
lethal results and I'm very sure I'm not the only one who can attest to that. And
give us a break...u want to go back to 7.62mm only on your Emils ?? Dont think so.


We can't turn with either plane, although it is more forgiving at the snap than either Hurri or Spit (which is really pilot dependent).
Since when does a pilot of your calibre willingly get into a turn fight with a Brit
fighter. You and any experienced 109 pilot knows better than that. You fly to your strengths.


We don't have the power of the Merlins at altitude (at least not the Hurri, I haven't really flown a Spit up there).
How many dogfights are u doing at "altitude" lately ? I would guess that 99.9% of
engagements are at an altitude well suited to a 109.

There are ways to beat a 109 even 1v1 starting even,
I'm all ears brother.

but there's not going to be a chance with the IIa's.
Rest assured there is every chance. The playing field has been somewhat levelled
so everyone CAN have a fighting chance instead of being routinely butchered.
The airfield shouldn't be limited to so few planes in my view as the IIa is NOT the
undisputed king of CloD that poorly presented arguments would have us believe.
Heck I'll gladly go fly 109s if red starts to get more pilots than blue. As it is (at
least most times when I'm on) there are routinely 2 or 3 times as many blue as red.
Why??...a no brainer, 109s are easier to fly, faster and more lethal. Who can be
bothered learning the idiosyncracies of bi-plane era plane management and pea
shooters when u can have a sleek killing machine. A couple of hits on a bomber
with minegeschoss rounds is so much more satisfying than emptying all of your
rifle bullets into even a dam fighter for often little result.
I truly can't understand the tone of almost utter despair coming mainly from 109
officianados. Your day in the sun is still here. You're just gonna have to share
some of it. Get over it.
ATAG_Torian

ATAG_Torian
Nov-29-2011, 10:40
OK, I'm a little puzzled here. Blues have the E4 which outclimbs and out dives the Rotol and Ia. It has massive firepower that outguns both RAF planes in terms of cannon fire destructiveness and duration of fire. The E4 has fuel injection so it can bunt into a dive -- the Rotol and 1a must half-roll first losing time and frequently losing sight of the enemy. Yet the Blues maintain that it's their superior tactics, not the superior aircraft performance, that accounts for the huge disparity in kill ratios.

Fine.

Until the IIa is introduced with a more powerful engine which still must be half-rolled into a dive and is still saddled with a mere 14 seconds of inferior .303 rifle rounds. Suddenly "superior tactics" fly right out of the window! The silly Reds who insist on respawning at Hawkinge to get repeatedly vulched will suddenly dominate because of.......silly SUPERIOR tactics? Or does having a machine like the IIa that can now keep up with an E4 in climb, dive, and level flight cause the Blues a problem -- despite the IIa's inferior armament and carburation?

So, which is it? Superior machines or superior tactics??? Just as the Blues maintain that the Reds simply need to fly & fight smarter in their current Ia's and Rotols vs the E4's, so it should apply that the Blues need only to maintain their superior tactics flying their E4's vs the Reds' IIa's to prevail. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. At least the E4's are not limited to five machines!

Man, has taken me 4 posts to try and say what u have nailed on the head in 3
paragraphs. Well said.

VF/A-Mjoelner
Nov-29-2011, 10:59
To be fair, this only happens when certain Russian kids come over to play. Don't spawn at an airfield that is being gangbanged, simple as that. Maidstone is free I bet.

Edit:

Allegory of German 109 pilot fighting Mk.Ia realising it's a Mk.IIa in the process:

http://i33.tinypic.com/30hpqxk.gif

well changed airfields 3 times and back again the same thing mate and was told to change tactics against the 109's too, how do I do that while always being shot up warming up my engine ? Soon some1 will even tell me that I need to learn to fly my mount LOL

Whiskey
Nov-29-2011, 10:59
I flew the IIa last night and I must say, I love it. It actually feels and flies like a Spitfire. Although, trying to get off the ground while in the IIa was a big problem as 3-5 109 constantly base camping Manston/Ramsgate was to say the least annoying, while I watched them just circle the base as our flak did little to nothing (it seemed).

I would think that having a forward base with a Spit IIa and a rear base with Spit IIa's available would be a better approach. At least then the rear fighters could come and clear out the forward areas for take off.

If the IIa was introduced for a lack of skill, why was the E-4 introduced with no plane to counter it. If flown properly the E-4 can not be touched by a Hurri or a Spit Ia. That being the case, if skill was such a big factor why would anyone pick the E-4 knowing full well it can dominate the skies....if flown properly.

I would think that game balance is more of an issue rather than being historically correct. After all this is a game, we hit can re spawn with no ill effect.

Whiskey

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 11:12
well changed airfields 3 times and back again the same thing mate and was told to change tactics against the 109's too, how do I do that while always being shot up warming up my engine ? Soon some1 will even tell me that I need to learn to fly my mount LOL

Oh no, don't get me wrong, been there myself today (same time with you dude, swearing heavily). I am talking about Maidstone airfield, which is not too far and never vulched. With these guys online there is no point spawning at Hawkinge, Lympne and today even Manston / Ramsgate was busy. I know what you mean but spawn further in the north, zoom the vulchers or even better, intercept them in France. They never check their 6.

Dutch
Nov-29-2011, 11:17
trying to get off the ground while in the IIa was a big problem as 3-5 109 constantly base camping Manston/Ramsgate was to say the least annoying.

I've only just come off the server and the same was happening this afternoon (UK time). Some chap called 'alembash' and a wingman were doing it constantly for the whole time I was on.

So I spawned in a Hurri at Maidstone and went after them. Even managed to shoot one down.

At least when they insist on doing this, we know where they are and can spawn further away to get altitude on 'em, although not in a IIa of course!

So I think I'll make a habit of providing cover over Manston for now.;)

Whiskey
Nov-29-2011, 11:29
Yip, seems the Spit IIa strikes fear into the hearts of the 109 pilots, so much they make an effort to camp all forward bases having the dreaded IIa. Kinda makes me laugh really, guess we'll have to get all the red pilots to camp the E-4 bases like that :laugh1.

I must say, I do love flying in the ATAG server, great job guys :dthumb:.

Whiskey

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-29-2011, 11:42
Bliss, I'll go point to point with you when I get more time at work (walking out the door in 5 minutes now) ;)

Really, you're right, I don't fight at disadvantaged altitudes, and I don't turn and burn with Reds, until I know I'm going to win and am safe. The one place that reds have now is the ability to out-turn anything the Blues can put in the air, at the historical disadvantage of not being able to out-run or out-climb them. A good Red pilot (take 71st_Knight for example, or even BW_Wolverine) will pull turns and stay out of the 109's guns, and after several passes, they have taken the boom n zoom away, and have reduced the 109 to either running away, or a co-e fight. Both those pilots come out on top of those situations more often than not.

YOu've put in hours into multiple aircraft, I currently have 387 hours in CoD, 85% in the 109. It is experience and discipline that gives me the ability to defeat Red, or get the hell out. Yes I do get shot down (a lot less if I'd stay away from your crazy ground targets, haha), but it has been a solid month since it was from a human player (did crash in front of Bulldozer after AA took 1/2 my wing off, but he missed and got 0%, lol). But that's because no matter what, When I get co-E with a red, or worse, I get lower than them (maybe still have a slight advantage in E, sometimes not), I'm out of dodge. I'm very good at pushing the 109 to 720+ and quickly.

However, even like this, there's no position that would be favorable vs the Spit II, its faster at all altitudes, climbs better at all altitudes, turns better at all speeds. Simply flying to the 109s strengths would mean... flying somewhere else, there's no alternative, the 109 has no strengths vs the II.

l3ullDoZeR
Nov-29-2011, 11:42
10 players on as we speak, four 109's constantly hangin over Manston shooting up MK2's on the ground, in the hangars and on their take off runs, now you need Mk2's to cover MK2's taking off LOL

Cheers


Haha, this man speaks truth. Now Manston is the new Hawkinge. Oh and on a lighter note, I'm kinda shocked at the shitstorm 5 spit II's has caused.

I don't really see the big deal, I got shot on the ground more in 30 minutes in a spit IIa than I have for weeks without it!

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-29-2011, 11:51
It's not fair, we need airstarts for the IIa's because the E-4 has magic bullets that stop me from taking off!!! LOL I can't wait to get back to town and join the fun!

Craig

C

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 11:53
Just checked. Two Blue pilots have 34 kills between them this morning. Guess the IIa is not the scourge the Blues say it is.

EDIT: Just looked again 5 minutes later: make that 36 (or 46 kills if you add in the No. 3 Blue pilot).

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 12:03
I currently have 387 hours in CoD, 85% in the 109.

Ok, well done. Now try flying RAF for month or two, pick any Mk.Is and and come back to us how it went :laugh: I mean it mate, you will be surprised.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-29-2011, 12:19
Just checked. Two Blue pilots have 34 kills between them this morning. Guess the IIa is not the scourge the Blues say it is.

EDIT: Just looked again 5 minutes later: make that 36 (or 46 kills if you add in the No. 3 Blue pilot).

These numbers above make all the Blues arguments on this thread spurious.

I thought we had covered this, how many of those kills are from vulching? I would bet majority! Nothing has changed how the big scores are made, low over the RAF airfields, the Raf's magic aeroplane, and the lutftwaffes magic bullets won't change this, probably only make it worse because now flying the IIa is going to be like having a kick me sign around your neck!

Craig

VO101_Tom
Nov-29-2011, 12:39
Just checked. Two Blue pilots have 34 kills between them this morning. Guess the IIa is not the scourge the Blues say it is.

EDIT: Just looked again 5 minutes later: make that 36 (or 46 kills if you add in the No. 3 Blue pilot).

Even Spit IIa is not enough good airplane? Do not you think that this is becoming embarrassing? What's Next? G.50 to the Germans, begin to lose finally?

edit: 46 against who? AI bomber or Human SpitIIa? Wulching or dogfighting?

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 12:48
Even Spit IIa is not enough good airplane? Do not you think that this is becoming embarrassing? What's Next? G.50 to the Germans, begin to lose finally?

Nope, the LW should keep the E4's with no limitation on numbers. And the same for the RAF with the IIa's. Then we'll see who's embarrassed. ;)

edit: 46 against who? AI bomber or Human SpitIIa? Wulching or dogfighting?

Now you're being disingenuous.......or you've not played on the ATAG server. :inq:

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 12:55
I thought we had covered this, how many of those kills are from vulching? I would bet majority! Nothing has changed how the big scores are made, low over the RAF airfields, the Raf's magic aeroplane, and the lutftwaffes magic bullets won't change this, probably only make it worse because now flying the IIa is going to be like having a kick me sign around your neck!

Craig

Agreed.

So why keep tying one hand behind the RAF's back all the time? Why tether a limited number of IIa's to one airfield? The demonstrated superior tactics of the Blues will prevail if IIa's are given the same dispersion and numbers as the E4's. The Blues should be insisting on it to prove themselves right!

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-29-2011, 13:26
Agreed.

So why keep tying one hand behind the RAF's back all the time? Why tether a limited number of IIa's to one airfield? The demonstrated superior tactics of the Blues will prevail if IIa's are given the same dispersion and numbers as the E4's. The Blues should be insisting on it to prove themselves right!

Why the big deal with the E-4 all the time, it performs no better to the E-1, and from what I understand even worse unless flown using manual pitch. It's magical bullets won't aim themselves at the enemy either so I can't understand how it alone is seen as the blue uberfighter! I fly the E-1 and find that majority of my victories are won on the initial bounce, and that is with just 4 mg's, the magic bullets do not make the plane unlike what some think!

Craig

JG52_Di'O
Nov-29-2011, 13:27
NO!!!!

VO101_Tom
Nov-29-2011, 13:42
Now you're being disingenuous.......or you've not played on the ATAG server. :inq:

When I had time, i flew on the ATAG only (or own 1v1 lobby). Now, I dunno.
It is clear that the reason for the changes is not the wulch, not the RAF engine warm-up time, and not the low-flying Germans, because if so, you insert airstart, and secondary AFB a little farther, and all this problem is solved. No. You just need the better a/c to win. And i do not want to assist in this.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 13:47
Why the big deal with the E-4 all the time, it performs no better to the E-1, and from what I understand even worse unless flown using manual pitch. It's magical bullets won't aim themselves at the enemy either so I can't understand how it alone is seen as the blue uberfighter! I fly the E-1 and find that majority of my victories are won on the initial bounce, and that is with just 4 mg's, the magic bullets do not make the plane unlike what some think!

Craig

Having been at the receiving end, exploding cannon shells make bigger holes in my Spit than rifle bullets.

Whiskey
Nov-29-2011, 13:59
Just got off the server and wow. The amount of 109's and 110's constantly vulching in Manston/Ramsgate is brutal. I did manage to get off the ground a couple of times...score some hits and a few kills.

I can't understand why they fear the IIa so much, and only 5 of them. Is it because the E-4 no longer can fly care free? Because now they must use stronger tactics against a IIa? Try flying the Ia against an E-4, you learn tactics fast. Even good tactics are sometimes useless when a Ia faces an E-4.

I have flown the Spit Ia for quite some time now, it lacks power and e retention that it should have. Basically flying in a plane that is at a disadvantage from the get go but I flew it regardless. Blue pilots did not mind this one bit, but take that advantage away and the result is what you have now...constant base camping. And that is only due to 5 IIa's being available lol.

Its like a child`s tantrum to be honest....amusing.

Whiskey

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 16:12
ATAG_Trumps posted:

This is true, but surely you must accept half the blame at least for the state of your aeroplane after it has been touched by the magic bullets, you being in the more maneuverable fighter must have placed it there to be touched ;)
It looks more and more like the IIa is here as compensation for not having magic bullets, being as there are no complaints about the E-1/3 having an advantage!

Ban the bullets, ban the bullets ;)

Craig

Not at all.

All 109's have a speed, climb, and dive advantage over the I's and Ia's. The Blues have no problem with that.
The E4 has the double-whammy of heavier armament AND speed, climb, and dive. The Blues have no problem with that.
All 109's have the advantage of fuel injection over the I's and Ia's. The Blues have no problem with that.

The IIa's have a speed, climb, and dive advantage over the 109's. The Blues have a BIG problem with that.
The IIa's have inferior armament to the E4. The Blues ignore that.
The IIa's have inferior carburation to the 109's. The Blues ignore that.

The Blues are TERRIFIED of 5 (count 'em! FIVE) IIa's - hence the concentrated suppression (ie vulching) tactics that have suddenly shifted from Hawkinge to Manston.

For three months the Reds have flown inferior machines against the Blues. The Blues have steadfastly maintained that the Reds need only fly and fight smarter. Suddenly the balance has tipped slightly towards the Reds in terms of aircraft performance with the inclusion of a mere five IIa's being stabled at a vulnerable coastal airfield and the Blues are in a panic. Perhaps if IIa's were made freely available to the Reds that panic would be justified as the Blues realized that tactics only get you so far in the face of superior aircraft.

The Reds have manned up for three months in the face of overwhelming odds. It's time the Blues learned to do the same, albeit in the face of a slight disadvantage of a few IIa's.

VF/A-Mjoelner
Nov-29-2011, 16:20
Oh no, don't get me wrong, been there myself today (same time with you dude, swearing heavily). I am talking about Maidstone airfield, which is not too far and never vulched. With these guys online there is no point spawning at Hawkinge, Lympne and today even Manston / Ramsgate was busy. I know what you mean but spawn further in the north, zoom the vulchers or even better, intercept them in France. They never check their 6.

Copy Robo, sounds like a good idea !

jaydee
Nov-29-2011, 16:32
Id like to add my 2 cents worth !....ATAG are to be commended for having courage to let a plane (that is contained in the game and has a reasonbly accurate flight model) be flown,knowing there would be an outcry from some.........Ive just read some posts on bannana forums from some "sulks",saying there going to switch to Spit2a from 109 now. Well good luck getting one,thers only five available and they wont be sitting on the ground waiting for you guys to jump in !.....Everyone was happy while the 109s were playing havoc and clearly dominating the game.....Ive flown the 109 since I joined this server, until two weeks ago when I jumped into the spit and immediately noticed the diffrence in climb,acceleration,dive not to mention the warm up ! So whats the big problem introducing a plane (when flown well) that can take the fight to the 109 ? A lot of noobs(like me) in a spit2 are still going to be defeated by a 109 that is flown well ! Good on ya Torian for getting this ball rolling ! ~S~

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-29-2011, 16:33
Just a little snippet from the Current Players link:



Name Air Kills Time
alambash 36 1h 19m 51s



:eek:


And I LOL'd :laugh:

Jaydee - I agree whole heartedly...

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 18:45
Just had great time on ATAG (nothing unusual I know) and I don't think anything changed with this Mk.IIa business, I mean I stick to my Hurri but please keep it as it is (limited numbers of mark 2) as it seemed to level things up a bit and it's generally more enjoyable by both sides now (imho, have to try blues next time tbh).

Also, with the server being busy and very popular :thumbsup: it would be good idea to consider some moderating and actually warn / kick / ban some folks doing silly stuff. Just my 0.02..

*edit* I hope u Spit Mk.IIa jockeys all use the +12PSi boost to give the 109 some grief!

Doggles
Nov-29-2011, 19:29
I have to say I was quite disappointed to read the reasoning behind the Spit 2 being added.

Mr.X is a fantastic pilot, and competes at a very high level in dogfight tournaments in Russia (footage on the 1c forums). It's no wonder to me that he and his squadmates score many many kills and die rarely. If Axis pilots are using teamwork, the solution is for Allied pilots to respond in kind and use teamwork themselves.

Instead, whenever I'm on the server I see all the RAF guys flying single or rarely in pairs flying across to France where they furball at low altitude over Luftwaffe bases.

Is there any wonder they get shot down en masse when this is their MO?

The Hurricane is a very capable aircraft and it has a distinct area of the flight envelope where it is superior to the Emil. By contrast the Emil is inferior to the Spit Mk2 in all respects.

To add the Spit Mk2 simply because some Axis pilots are very, very good is ridiculous.

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 19:56
Sorry double post :(

Robo.
Nov-29-2011, 19:56
To add the Spit Mk2 simply because some Axis pilots are very, very good is ridiculous.

Hi Doggles - I think it was more about having 10 Axis sitting in E-4s against 4 Allies way too often, and also about the fact that 4 out of these 10 LW pilots were swarming RAF airfields killing everything that moves (and everything that doesn't even had a chance to move yet :D)

I see your point, but honestly, try ATAG as it is now to see it's not bad at all. Many pilots still fly Rotol Hurris, there were plenty of Mk.Ia Spifire and 5 Mk.IIa. I've seen quite a few of them killed.

As for Mr.X and Hurricane capabilities - he tried to fly RAF for few days, got his bottom kicked (obviously) and then switched back to his E-4.

Can you please specify what these distinct areas of flight envelopes are where Rotol Hurri happens to be superior to Emil?

Doggles
Nov-29-2011, 20:14
I have tried it. Previously the Allied aircraft couldn't climb with the Emil. This was good because climbing was really the only way to fight them. Trying to turn with a Spit or Hurri was suicidal.

The MkII removes the climb advantage.

If you get caught by a Spit MkII at co-altitude there is literally nothing you can do but hope for the other guy to make a mistake.

All this will accomplish is stacking the teams the other way. I certainly won't be flying anything other than a MkII until this gets resolved.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 20:16
To add the Spit Mk2 simply because some Axis pilots are very, very good is ridiculous.

Hardly.

They are very, very good flying superior aircraft.

The Reds are very, very good flying inferior aircraft.

The Blues like having this advantage. The Reds are fed up with it.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-29-2011, 20:24
I have to say I was quite disappointed to read the reasoning behind the Spit 2 being added.

Mr.X is a fantastic pilot, and competes at a very high level in dogfight tournaments in Russia (footage on the 1c forums). It's no wonder to me that he and his squadmates score many many kills and die rarely. If Axis pilots are using teamwork, the solution is for Allied pilots to respond in kind and use teamwork themselves.

Instead, whenever I'm on the server I see all the RAF guys flying single or rarely in pairs flying across to France where they furball at low altitude over Luftwaffe bases.

Is there any wonder they get shot down en masse when this is their MO?

The Hurricane is a very capable aircraft and it has a distinct area of the flight envelope where it is superior to the Emil. By contrast the Emil is inferior to the Spit Mk2 in all respects.

To add the Spit Mk2 simply because some Axis pilots are very, very good is ridiculous.

Dogges,

You're kidding yourself if you think the same pilot in a spit1a/hurriMk1 has an equal chance in our current 109. My steam account says 1097 hours in IL2COD. (you can check yourself) I'd almost wager a bet that I have more hours than almost anyone that currently owns it. With that said, I have roughly 300 hours flying on red, and 300 hours flying on blue.

There is no comparison with a properly flown 109 to the Spit1a/HurriMk1. It's almost child's play. I've been shot down plenty on both sides, don't get me wrong. But every single time I've died in a 109 it was my own doing. Either twirling around for 10 minutes with a hurri/spit and slowly going lower and lower and lower until finally out of E, or flat out getting bounced while doing the same thing (lower and lower).

I encourage you to fly red for 350 hours straight - only in a spit1a/hurriMk1 and I guarantee you'll see things differently. The only thing I can go back to is dog fight servers in IL246. The spit9 is fairly common to be seen on server with the G6's or even K series 109's. And you twirl around like I see 109 drivers doing in the server atm, 2 ft off the deck, no E, simply toying with their prey and that fuel injected, cannon equiped Spit9 is going to eat you for breakfast. It will eat you for breakfast even if you are flying your 109 right. I can't remember the last time I went online in 46 and didn't see the large majority of the 109's contrailing - perched ready to bounce.

We have the absolute opposite situation atm and quite frankly it's because the 109 doesn't have hardly anything to fear. I highly suggest any 109 pilot who ever flies below 1000m on our server to try to do the same in an IL246 server and see what happens. The problem has nothing to do with blue having too much skill. Actually, I think red has the majority of the skill. I wouldn't fly a 109 anywhere near what 75% of the 109 drivers do on the server, simply because of my years flying one in 46 told me how dumb that was. When I see 75% of the 109's below 1000m, that only reaffirms my initial thoughts on the matter. The 109 holds every card in the deck.

In 46' if I scared an enemy down (say I'm at 4000-6000m) the last thing I would do is follow him down where I know I'd soon be easy prey without altitude and without E. Everytime I have blue pilots on coms, that's exactly what we end up doing. (Constant twirling until we're eventually on the deck - virtually every time) And the reason we end up on the deck is simply because the spit1a/HurriMk1 loses every ounce of it's energy the second it pulls on the elevators (couple that with an engine that will die following someone in a climb). That = easy pickings. To deny this is straight up outlandish. The spitIIa is a better plane in virtually every single situation except high altitude. It still stalls, and it still loses E like mad up top, and still has crap guns. Couple that with being light in weight, it easy has a much harder time 5000+m with it's control surfaces in the less dense air.

Doc and a bunch of us were escorting bombers last night. I, being higher than everyone else 5500m, got bounced by a SpitIIa. In other words, he was higher and dove on me (aka - he had all the energy) He made a glancing pass and got some very minor hits on me and went down 1000m to where Doc in his 109 was. I dove after him and if I would of had a little better aim would have shot him out of the sky (hence doc's recent video) That same situation happens over and over again in the late model stuff with IL246. But as people used to simply climbing and watching the allied planes choke out to -aka- get the altitude advantage again, we ended up staying up there with a SpitIIa with not only the E advantage (he came from above) but also the altitude advantage. In 46, that same situation happens, you nose over and hit the deck, and never look back.

The only thing I can say is do what I do: A.) not be biased. B.) know inside and out every single fighter we have available for both sides. That's what I base my decisions on. The only way you can subjectively do that is putting the hours in on both sides. I never understood the "I only fly one side" thing and probably never will. But if you make it a point to fly the enemies planes, then you'll realize everything I've said is true. But it should be fairly obvious when I see 3/4 of the blue team on the deck.

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-29-2011, 20:30
. If you get caught by a Spit MkII at co-altitude there is literally nothing you can do but hope for the other guy to make a mistake..

Very true.

For three months now the RAF pilots have been subjected to this exact same situation if caught at co-alt by a 109. You can't out run them, out dive them, or out climb them. Out turn them? Seriously? The 109 can take the initiative at any point by diving away, extending, then, at his leisure, climbing up to commence boom & zoom tactics.He also has much more ammunition than the RAF fighter to toy with his desperately swerving victim as he chooses.

If the Blues tactics are so very good, what do they have to fear from a IIa with its little popguns and Model T Ford carberator?

*Helo*
Nov-29-2011, 21:02
I personally fly most of the time RAF aka RED since flying around with the Hurri and the Spit Ia is more challenging for me than flying with a 109. It takes much more effort to down a 109 than the other way around. The energy and the armament afvantage of the 109-E3/4 is quite comfortable but for me personally, it gets boring bouncing Hurris and Spits. Also the nose MGs of the 109 are a surgical tool to inclict precise damage on the rights spots of the enemy plane.

More than a Spit II, I would wish for more people flying around in groups rather than alone. Sometimes things look quite different when 2on2 or 2on3 fight each other than 1on1.
On the other side, I can totally understand the argument that RED has little chances when BLUE fighters swarming the red bases. There are some people like this alaXXXXX dude who donґt do anythign else but vulching dozens of people on the red airbases with little chances to prevent that for RED.

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-29-2011, 21:39
Doggles:


If you get caught by a Spit MkII at co-altitude there is literally nothing you can do but hope for the other guy to make a mistake.


There are 5 Spit Mk IIa's available on the server. EVERY 109 holds an advantage over EVERY Hurri or Spit Mk I. See what happens when the server has 60 pilots, with around 20 or so who will fly Red, most on comms who fly together as best they can.

Those 5 Mk IIa's, yes limited to 5, that spawn at a coastal field that is blanketed with Emils. They get decimated on the ground or as soon as they take off. If they are able to get into the air, then yes...they can fight an Emil on equal footing...EVERY other Red pilot is at the mercy of the 109, period.

Sorry if the guys on the Blue side are not having a free lunch anymore, but so many have said "it's the pilot not the plane". Follow Bliss's advice, fly Red for 30 straight days, do not get into a 109 or Spit Mk II during that period, and report back on how you feel. You just might have a different perspective.

~S~

Deacon

Doggles
Nov-29-2011, 23:00
So, the rationale I'm hearing is that because Axis pilots fly their aircraft to its advantages (climb), they get punished?

Snapper doesn't want to use the turn advantage, aka he wants to fly his aircraft AGAINST its advantages, but somehow it's now necessary to add more powerful spits?

Doggles
Nov-29-2011, 23:01
There are 5 Spit Mk IIa's available on the server

Thank goodness for small mercies. I was not aware of this.

In any case, I'll see you guys when they fix the flight models I guess.

Doggles
Nov-29-2011, 23:06
Dogges,

You're kidding yourself if you think the same pilot in a spit1a/hurriMk1 has an equal chance in our current 109. My steam account says 1097 hours in IL2COD. (you can check yourself) I'd almost wager a bet that I have more hours than almost anyone that currently owns it. With that said, I have roughly 300 hours flying on red, and 300 hours flying on blue.

There is no comparison with a properly flown 109 to the Spit1a/HurriMk1. It's almost child's play. I've been shot down plenty on both sides, don't get me wrong. But every single time I've died in a 109 it was my own doing. Either twirling around for 10 minutes with a hurri/spit and slowly going lower and lower and lower until finally out of E, or flat out getting bounced while doing the same thing (lower and lower).

I encourage you to fly red for 350 hours straight - only in a spit1a/hurriMk1 and I guarantee you'll see things differently. The only thing I can go back to is dog fight servers in IL246. The spit9 is fairly common to be seen on server with the G6's or even K series 109's. And you twirl around like I see 109 drivers doing in the server atm, 2 ft off the deck, no E, simply toying with their prey and that fuel injected, cannon equiped Spit9 is going to eat you for breakfast. It will eat you for breakfast even if you are flying your 109 right. I can't remember the last time I went online in 46 and didn't see the large majority of the 109's contrailing - perched ready to bounce.

We have the absolute opposite situation atm and quite frankly it's because the 109 doesn't have hardly anything to fear. I highly suggest any 109 pilot who ever flies below 1000m on our server to try to do the same in an IL246 server and see what happens. The problem has nothing to do with blue having too much skill. Actually, I think red has the majority of the skill. I wouldn't fly a 109 anywhere near what 75% of the 109 drivers do on the server, simply because of my years flying one in 46 told me how dumb that was. When I see 75% of the 109's below 1000m, that only reaffirms my initial thoughts on the matter. The 109 holds every card in the deck.

In 46' if I scared an enemy down (say I'm at 4000-6000m) the last thing I would do is follow him down where I know I'd soon be easy prey without altitude and without E. Everytime I have blue pilots on coms, that's exactly what we end up doing. (Constant twirling until we're eventually on the deck - virtually every time) And the reason we end up on the deck is simply because the spit1a/HurriMk1 loses every ounce of it's energy the second it pulls on the elevators (couple that with an engine that will die following someone in a climb). That = easy pickings. To deny this is straight up outlandish. The spitIIa is a better plane in virtually every single situation except high altitude. It still stalls, and it still loses E like mad up top, and still has crap guns. Couple that with being light in weight, it easy has a much harder time 5000+m with it's control surfaces in the less dense air.

Doc and a bunch of us were escorting bombers last night. I, being higher than everyone else 5500m, got bounced by a SpitIIa. In other words, he was higher and dove on me (aka - he had all the energy) He made a glancing pass and got some very minor hits on me and went down 1000m to where Doc in his 109 was. I dove after him and if I would of had a little better aim would have shot him out of the sky (hence doc's recent video) That same situation happens over and over again in the late model stuff with IL246. But as people used to simply climbing and watching the allied planes choke out to -aka- get the altitude advantage again, we ended up staying up there with a SpitIIa with not only the E advantage (he came from above) but also the altitude advantage. In 46, that same situation happens, you nose over and hit the deck, and never look back.

The only thing I can say is do what I do: A.) not be biased. B.) know inside and out every single fighter we have available for both sides. That's what I base my decisions on. The only way you can subjectively do that is putting the hours in on both sides. I never understood the "I only fly one side" thing and probably never will. But if you make it a point to fly the enemies planes, then you'll realize everything I've said is true. But it should be fairly obvious when I see 3/4 of the blue team on the deck.

Bliss, I'm not going to respond to this wall of text because I don't think that 1946 has any bearing on this game whatsoever. I stopped flying Spits vs 109s because that server was so obviously Red-biased that it became a joke.

They had Spit9s against FW190A-3s on one map. Why? Because Red pilots kept flying on the deck and getting rocked, then coming onto the forums and crying about how they were outmatched.

Sound familiar? The only difference is that instead of adding a better spit, the Warbirds of Prey guys just nerfed the Axis side.

This situation here is just as ridiculous.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-29-2011, 23:55
Doggles

I don't know where to start. It's obvious that you are very biased. You won't be flying because now there's a possibility that you might get shot down? This is the type of attitude I don't understand. I'm the type of person, that the harder the challenge, the greater the reward. But I'm not gonna rage quit because someone got the better of me. I learn from it. You got shot down the other day 500m off the ground and then complained about the MkII, then left. It has nothing to do with the fact you lost all your altitude or energy right?

As far as 46, it has alot of bearing on this game. Properly flying a 109 hasn't changed. 75% of the people on the server flying a 109 don't fly it properly because they don't have to. Is this really that hard to understand?

I'm actually disappointed in the amount of flak I've gotten from some of this. If you can't see just how big of an advantage the 109 has over both Mk1's than it's really pointless to say anything at all. And you have the audacity to say it's "ridiculous"? Just wait till we start getting fuel injected, cannon equipped spitfires? What are you going to do then?

I'll listen to any sort of debate you have or want to talk about, but you better have some points to mine, in other words, some sort of valid criticism. And if your only criticism is out of all the reds flying, now there's a possibility that 5 of those planes can perform on par or better than you in some situations, then we are done talking.

Again, I dare you to fly red (the Mk1s only) for a few months, because obviously it's soo fair and balanced right?

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-29-2011, 23:56
ATAG_Trumps posted:

This is true, but surely you must accept half the blame at least for the state of your aeroplane after it has been touched by the magic bullets, you being in the more maneuverable fighter must have placed it there to be touched ;)
It looks more and more like the IIa is here as compensation for not having magic bullets, being as there are no complaints about the E-1/3 having an advantage!

Ban the bullets, ban the bullets ;)

Craig

Not at all.

All 109's have a speed, climb, and dive advantage over the I's and Ia's. The Blues have no problem with that.
The E4 has the double-whammy of heavier armament AND speed, climb, and dive. The Blues have no problem with that.
All 109's have the advantage of fuel injection over the I's and Ia's. The Blues have no problem with that.

The IIa's have a speed, climb, and dive advantage over the 109's. The Blues have a BIG problem with that.
The IIa's have inferior armament to the E4. The Blues ignore that.
The IIa's have inferior carburation to the 109's. The Blues ignore that.

The Blues are TERRIFIED of 5 (count 'em! FIVE) IIa's - hence the concentrated suppression (ie vulching) tactics that have suddenly shifted from Hawkinge to Manston.

For three months the Reds have flown inferior machines against the Blues. The Blues have steadfastly maintained that the Reds need only fly and fight smarter. Suddenly the balance has tipped slightly towards the Reds in terms of aircraft performance with the inclusion of a mere five IIa's being stabled at a vulnerable coastal airfield and the Blues are in a panic. Perhaps if IIa's were made freely available to the Reds that panic would be justified as the Blues realized that tactics only get you so far in the face of superior aircraft.

The Reds have manned up for three months in the face of overwhelming odds. It's time the Blues learned to do the same, albeit in the face of a slight disadvantage of a few IIa's.


According to one of your own, the Hurricane can outclimb the 109, so that point is removed, and everyone admits that both RAF planes already out-turn the 109. If you can install the IIa with aileron damage to start, giving the 109 the turning advantage, while not historical, at least gives 1 point back. Instead, you simply introduce a plane that truly holds all the cards.

Arguing that bullets are better, or tactics are better is pointless, you'll never totally even the skill level between players. A bullet that doesn't hit is useless, 1 that hits had to be brought to bear by someone.

Anyways, I'm sure Bliss now remembers the headaches that came along last time he installed the UFOs, so I'm done with this thread. I know the headaches he's now suffering!

I do ask you guys to try to keep it civil, it is a lot of stress running something like this, and everyone questioning your every move (good or bad). Don't forget, Bliss/Watchman/Spin's hard work making this server the best, not every decision is going to be best, but they've proven before they're willing to see their mistakes, so give em time...

~S!

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-29-2011, 23:59
I thought the flak before was well deserved Rudelmann, as at that point in time I hadn't fully experienced the 109 in IL2COD.

Now that I've got an even amount in both, the SpitII is not going to be removed anytime soon. It's child's play in a 109 vs any Mk1's. If you don't think it is, you really are kidding yourself.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 00:28
Doggles

I don't know where to start. It's obvious that you are very biased. You won't be flying because now there's a possibility that you might get shot down?Don't put words in my mouth please. There's always a possibility I might get shot down. I'll probably still fly, but I'm only going to fly the Mk2. Someone said they didn't see Mk2 fliers getting 10+ kills and no deaths. I bet I can do that no problem. It's easy to win when you have a turn, climb, and speed advantage.


You got shot down the other day 500m off the ground and then complained about the MkII, then left. It has nothing to do with the fact you lost all your altitude or energy right? I was pilot killed at something like 2000 meters actually. Stop misrepresenting me. I complained about the Mk2 because Keller and I engaged those guys with 1000 meters of altitude advantage, and they zoomed up to us like it was nothing, then out turned us.


I'm actually disappointed in the amount of flak I've gotten from some of this. If you can't see just how big of an advantage the 109 has over both Mk1's than it's really pointless to say anything at all. And you have the audacity to say it's "ridiculous"? Just wait till we start getting fuel injected, cannon equipped spitfires? What are you going to do then?I agree the Spit Mk1 is pretty weak. The Hurri however has a definite advantage in part of the envelope that it can exploit (sustained turn). Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. Secondly, when cannon-armed, fuel-injected Spitfires come out I will be fine with it because more advanced 109s will be out, and probably also a 190 too. I will use the same tactics then that I do now: I will fly in such a way that I make the other guy play my game. The problem with the Spit Mk2 is that it wins at ALL the games.

I furthermore don't get why everyone gets so worked up about cannons? The 109 only has 60 rounds, and armament only matters if you can actually get into a position to fire. The best gun in the world won't save you if the other guy's performance prevents you from getting a firing opportunity.


Again, I dare you to fly red (the Mk1s only) for a few months, because obviously it's soo fair and balanced right?I've flown the Hurri before and done okay. Obviously I am not a Hurri ace because I don't fly it very often at all. All you have to do to know things are just fine is look at guys like JTDawg. He's regularly putting up scores of 15+ kills and pretty much only flies the Hurri. He flies the aircraft to its strengths and doesn't fly to his opponent's strengths.

Tell me again why the Mk2 is necessary?

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-30-2011, 00:45
I bet I can do that no problem. It's easy to win when you have a turn, climb, and speed advantage.

This is all I needed to read. Minus the turn (which the 109 wins on when you've gotten all your opponents E gone) - It is easy to win when you have climb, dive and speed advantage - AKA the 109 vs any Mk1's.

You just clarified the whole situation for me.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 01:05
This is all I needed to read. Minus the turn (which the 109 wins on when you've gotten all your opponents E gone) - It is easy to win when you have climb, dive and speed advantage - AKA the 109 vs any Mk1's.

You just clarified the whole situation for me.

The 109 doesn't have a sustained turn advantage against the Hurri, or the Spit Mk1a. The Hurri does turn a lot better than the spit though.

If you're honestly not just trying to win an argument, and honestly believe after "300 hours" of flying Allied that the Hurricane does not have a sustained turn advantage over the Emil then there's nothing I can say.

I'm done with this thread I guess.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-30-2011, 01:40
Doggles,

I'd say you haven't flown the Hurri much. The Spit1a has a much better sustained turn than the Hurri. If turn is the main thing that mattered, which you seem to be stuck on, then we'd still be in Sopwith Camels.

Speed, climb, and armament make all the difference in the world. The last 80 years of military aviation just proves that. If you don't think so, then no offense, I honestly have nothing left to say on the matter. The SpitIIa is not being removed.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 01:44
So you admit, then, that the 109 does not hold all the cards against the Mk1 aircraft?

I never said turn was the main thing that mattered. However angles tactics are definitely viable in air combat, and it's here that the Hurri is excellent while the 109 is mediocre at best.

Contrast this to the Mk2 that climbs better, is faster, but also turns better than the Emil.

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-30-2011, 01:58
If you're statement had any sort of validity, you'd be flying a G50 as it will out turn both Mk1's until it runs out of speed. I think the Tiger moth also has a tighter turning radius as well. Are you going to fly that if they put machine guns on it?

Do you see how pointless this is? The cards are held by the plane that can engage and disengage at will. It's always been this way since the inception of air combat. I'm done talking to you about this. I honestly believe you are just arguing to argue.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 02:07
If you're statement had any sort of validity, you'd be flying a G50 as it will out turn both Mk1's until it runs out of speed. I think the Tiger moth also has a tighter turning radius as well. Are you going to fly that if they put machine guns on it?

Do you see how pointless this is? The cards are held by the plane that can engage and disengage at will. It's always been this way since the inception of air combat. I'm done talking to you about this. I honestly believe you are just arguing to argue.

Are you kidding? Your justification for adding the Mk2 was that the Emil holds "all the cards."

I've just demonstrated that it does not hold all the cards.

I'm at a complete loss for words.

jaydee
Nov-30-2011, 02:19
To Bliss and Snapper......Thank you for your leadership,logic and straightforward approach to this "emotive" issue ! Unfortunately some people "Cant call a Spade...A Spade " if they feel "It might disadvantage them".The RIGHT decision has been made and I suggest you lock this thread (to avoid the vitreol and venom that goes on in other forums) and lets all move on and learn to fly our planes on ATAG in good company !..........All pilots...+1 this post to show ATAG we are behind them...Respectfully, Jaydee ~S~

ATAG_Bliss
Nov-30-2011, 02:26
Doggles,

Can you please tell me what you think determines the better aircraft when you have a comparison? I've already heard enough to think you honestly believe that the improvements in military aviation over the last 80 years is obviously all wrong.

If you think the "turn card" is on the same level of importance as speed, climb, or armament, then you'd be flying a G50 (which you don't). Your argument is silly to say the least.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 02:41
Aircraft are comparable in two distinct areas of performance: Energy and Angles.

An energy fighter is usually one with higher Thrust/Weight ratio than its opponent whereas an angles fighter is usually one with lower wing loading than its opponent.

When comparing relative fighter performance between two aircraft A and B, aircraft A can be said to be one of four things:

Double Superior, Single Superior, Single Inferior or Double Inferior.

-A Double Superior fighter has both the speed and acceleration to force the fight, and the instantaneous AND sustained turn performance maneuverability to win the fight.
-A single superior fighter has only one of those conditions. The other condition might be inferior or might be so similar as to come down to pilot skill.
-A single inferior fighter has a deficit in one area.
-A double inferior fighter has a deficit in both areas, and must either hope the enemy pilot makes a mistake, or disengage immediately.

Example of single-superior matchup: Bf 109E vs Hurricane MkI. The Bf 109 has an advantage in acceleration, climb, and level speed at some altitudes. The Hurricane has a turn advantage. Each fighter is supreme in one area, and neither aircraft can truly be said to be "better" than the other in all areas. The 109 pilot should go for Energy tactics, and the Hurri pilot should go for Angles tactics. Assuming a co-energy start, if the 109 goes for angles, he will lose. If the Hurri goes for energy he will lose.

Example of double-superior matchup: Spitfire MkIIa vs Bf 109E-4. The Spitfire has the advantage in climb and speed, and also has the maneuverability to win the close-in knife fight. Assuming a co-energy start, if the spitfire goes for angles, he will win. if the spitfire goes for energy, he will win. The 109 must pray the Spitfire makes a mistake because he cannot disengage either.


If you think the "turn card" is on the same level of importance as speed, climb, or armament, then you'd be flying a G50 (which you don't).

No, I would fly the G50 if I felt that Turn performance was the only desirable characteristic.

Robo.
Nov-30-2011, 04:06
Are you kidding? Your justification for adding the Mk2 was that the Emil holds "all the cards."

I've just demonstrated that it does not hold all the cards.

I'm at a complete loss for words.

Doggles - Bliss is actually right mate. Tiger Moth and G.50 are a great example. I am a blue pilot mind you.

Seriously mate, you would see things in much clearer perspective if you'd spend some time in the RAF fighters sometimes (any Mark I if you can). Your view of their abilities is rather distorted and therefore hilarious to read (when compared to the reality in the sim) E.g. Decent pilot in a 109 will very possibly get a shot at you down even if you go for angles tactics in a Hurricane Mk.I, co-E that is.

Also as for the Mk.IIa Spit - compared to what was ATAG without it, just few days ago (see my 1st reply), it has very much improved now. (sides, vulching).

It would be very unfair to have Emil and Mk.IIa in pure 1 on 1 situation because as you said, E-4 has no chance. But ATAG is MTE. I might as well jump in 109s now as it's finally a bit more of a challenge on LW side.

Robo.
Nov-30-2011, 04:16
So you admit, then, that the 109 does not hold all the cards against the Mk1 aircraft?

It certainly does hold aa the cards, Doggles. Decent pilot in a 109 won't give any Mk.I fighter a chance.

The good news is that there is not too many good 109 pilots. (actually many unexperienced pilots prefer the E-4 as it's so much easier to be successful in it - fair enough) but as in any MTE, you can use main advantage - energy. You have to be smart and you have to be good to beat 109s in a Mk.I fighter. You have to be smart and you have to be good to beat a Mk.IIa in a 109. :thumbsup: Energy advantage, wingman tactics and BnZ still work. Bullets still do damage when you hit. It's the pilot anyway so where exactly is the problem? You won't fly on ATAG because you might get shot down? Fair enough, yet funny.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-30-2011, 04:30
We all know that the FM's on the Mk 1 spits, hurries, and 109's are slightly porked at he moment, including the fact that that they seem to have swapped the spit and hurries FM, the relative performance between the British and German fighters is reasonably close to historical though being that the 109 has a slight advantage in speed, climb and acceleration in the dive, the British fighters are more. Manuverable, and when well flown the hurri is not too far shy of the 109 in speed! Armament and the likes of fuel injection are non issues, if the plane didn't have them so be it! Bringing the IIa into the equation we have the 1 fighter in game with reported accurate Fm, and numbers, if the IIa fm was nerfed to the same degree as all the others it would still out perform the 109's just proportionately the same as each of the others has their advantages. From what I recall of the last time this was tried it was soon discovered that to introduce the IIa with it's historically accurate better performance, plus it's +1 Accurate flight model turned it into a UFO verses everything else out there! It doesn't really worry me as the 110 is a bunny to shoot down no matter who catches me, so nothings changed there, my time in a 1a last week proved to me that if I set myself up to win I most definately could, so I don't really buy the hard doneby attitude of the reds, I still see this as a way to counter a group who fly better as a team, a group that love vulching, and the Dreaded E-4 magic bullets.
In saying all this I totally respect Bliss's decision to include the IIa, he is between a rock and a hardplace, and can never please all, and has had the guts to make call, good job mate. Looks like it's time for us luftwafflers to lift our game and earn our stripes!

Cheers
Craig

Whiskey
Nov-30-2011, 07:12
Bullets are bullets, not magic, just good gunnery is what makes the difference. I'm all for the spit IIa, I also flown without it for so long that the IIa is as much a danger to me as the enemy..lol.

What got my goat was the absolute tantrum reaction to having 5 IIa's in the server. Vulching had never reached such a level, hell you couldn't even take off from Ramsgate in a Ia. I don't mind vulching personally, but I make my pass or two and then get the hell out of Dodge. For a pilot to have 30+ kills by vulching alone and within less than 30 minutes, come on, grow up! Now, not all were vulching like that, there are some who just suppressed (once off the ground you were game to be killed....fair and appreciated too).

I ask the question why other servers have the IIa and have no problems? What exactly is the difference, that would have blue pilots fly on other servers with no problem against a IIa but on ATAG its all but the end of days!

Whiskey

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-30-2011, 07:27
+1 Thanks for making a difficult decision Bliss.


I ask the question why other servers have the IIa and have no problems? What exactly is the difference, that would have blue pilots fly on other servers with no problem against a IIa but on ATAG its all but the end of days!

I'm not sure, I don't fly anywhere else but ATAG, happily I may add.

I just wonder what it will be like in 5-6 years when there are properly modeled P-51's, Spit IX, and P-47's with pilots using sound B&Z tactics? When the Luft's are clamoring for more TA-152's and ME-262's (which were both very, very limited). I don't think this discussion will ever end. In fact maybe this post should be "stickied" and just let it roll...LOL.

ATAG_Trumps
Nov-30-2011, 07:33
Having not been present since the reintroduction of the IIa I haven't seen the vulching first hand, but have heard the tales. People have obviously decided that the best way to counter the IIa is to get it on the ground, maybe not sporting but a sound tactic none the less, the same method was used against the Me262 during the war as we all know. To expect the tactics not to change when one team is provided with a superior weapon would be silly. Obviously some people like this almbash ? Character are taking the piss but how far do you want to go to stop him, airstarts for IIa's, that much flack that the acceptable 1 pass vulch or skip bomb is impossible, and the whole field turns into a slide show when the guns open up? No one wins then!

Craig

*Helo*
Nov-30-2011, 11:06
As far as I remember, a while ago there was a discussion either here or in the 1c forums, whether to have some Spit IIs in bases further in land away from King Vulchґs main country "Hawking, Lymphe, Ramsgate etc." or not. When these Spit IIs are used offensively in France, their pilots need to pay the price of a much longer travel time to France, in case they wanna vulch the french airfields.

Apart form the facts between the 109 and Spits/Hurricanes, I miss the aspect of the sound radar, used by some Hurri and SPit pilots. I often hear on TS by people that they have not spotted, but hearing a 109 since they exploit the bugs of the latest sound system in CoD and als demonstrate unsportman-like behavior :0:, since the 109 makes obviously very destingt noises while flying around you. I personally donґt like that, since it is just unrealistic and requires more "check-six" glances. It isnґt really a direct argument for the 109 vs Spit discussion going on here, but that passed my mind when I read about unfair air encounters and to use the strengths of oneґs plane.

Doggles
Nov-30-2011, 13:04
Here's my real beef with the inclusion of the Spit 2.

Most of the time when I fly it's late at night, and numbers are low. By this I mean there are usually fewer than 12 people online.

But now with the spit 2, when there are only 10 people online 100% of the red team can be flying it even if it's limited to 5 aircraft, and now if you fly late at night like I do and prefer to fly blue, you have no chance at all.

How is this balanced?

ATAG_JTDawg
Nov-30-2011, 13:38
Thanks doggles for the complement!!!! i'm on every night,as you know ! From what i've been seeing , even when teams our low enough to where all spit iia could be used,they are not the hurri pilots , an reg spits still jump in their rides , an whats really funny is they are being used to go after bombers, not all but most (spit iia) instead of hunting the blue fighters!!!! With 60 players yes they all will be up =commen sense. But most days reds are out numbered !!!! as bad as 2 or 3 to 1. Now add that to the amount of blue vulching. cool with me ,But i like the dog fight , i have 500.plus hours in my hurri with the back firing motor, an yes most of my kills are 109s, I never fly alone am always on ts ! an fly good tactics (i think lol ) So if you think about it with 60 players an only 5 spits at most your chances of running into 1 is a 1 in 4 chance!!!!! ,but you could run into 2 if they are flying wing man, i would think in my opinion =more exciting ,like wonder if im gonna have to work this 1 different, i only have maybe 30 hours in 109 ,but i think i could still hold my own. But i'm a dawg !! An all dawgs go to heaven!!! And when i'm getting gang banged by 2 or 3 109s i like it ,till the last pass ,whether i win or loose!!!! a great fight is the rush!!! I can fly blue to even it up lol, SALUTE To bliss an all atag members an fliers ,(that means blue players to) I Think the numbers are right !!! Bliss did the fair thing if you really think about it!!!! See you in my rotol ;)

Whiskey
Nov-30-2011, 14:49
I agree, suppression is a sound tactic. But, in counter to that, during war, once a location of a target was known or air superiority could no longer be sustained for protection of that asset, the asset/target would be moved to a new location that is undisclosed to the enemy.

Since we do not have ground troops to do clandestine ops to find the new location of the asset/target, aerial recon must be done to locate it. This may bring incentive to implement actual patrols to stop incoming a/c or head straight out to the channel to intercept incoming enemy. It could also spur the enemy to start organized recon flights inside enemy territory.

I don't see a problem with this since the blues have already allocated a large amount of resources to suppress the IIa, they would just reallocate them to find the threat now. Seek and destroy if you will. This adds a new situation to the game for both sides (since the location is not known, recon must be done to suppress it), (red must use organized patrols on possible routes to the asset to intercept enemy a/c). Once the base has been located by the enemy and air superiority is lost, move the base again after a few days or so. It doesn't have to be inland all the time, coastal bases can still be used if the location is not given in the briefing.

Anyway, just an idea, I am sure it will have its "the plane can get altitude now if inland", or "how are we supposed to get inland if the IIa is patrolling", and maybe even "I can't get off the ground because there are 2 Spit IIa's in France vulching". That last one amuses me :Grin:.

Whiskey

ATAG_Septic
Nov-30-2011, 17:40
Here's my real beef with the inclusion of the Spit 2.

.... you have no chance at all.

How is this balanced?

You most certainly have a chance if I am in one of them, really. :)

ATAG_Deacon
Nov-30-2011, 19:02
Here's my real beef with the inclusion of the Spit 2.

Most of the time when I fly it's late at night, and numbers are low. By this I mean there are usually fewer than 12 people online.

But now with the spit 2, when there are only 10 people online 100% of the red team can be flying it even if it's limited to 5 aircraft, and now if you fly late at night like I do and prefer to fly blue, you have no chance at all.

How is this balanced?


So the server was skewed in favor of one side at all times, so the boss man decided to include a very limited number of one plane which balances the server ALMOST ALL OF THE TIME and you're unhappy? The one plane was available in limited numbers during the Battle of Britian, you do know that, right?

It's kind of a rhetorical question, I did a face palm when reading your post. Sigh.:no

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-30-2011, 19:22
In fairness, Doggles should have the last word on this thread, then it's best we lock her down. Many of us have had our say (me more than most, I admit) and although we sharply disagree on this issue it's not a permanent one. I would be the first to request The Keepers of the ATAG Server to remove the IIa's should an inordinate imbalance swing the other way. Plus any of us in the ATAG group can be contacted privately (drilstone at yahoo dot com) should that be the case.

What is obvious to me is that we all care passionately for this game that far outstrips the $50 cost. But as another team member pointed out to me, "we're not playing to win a cattle station" ....... I think that means cattle ranch to us in the Northern Hemisphere. Barring any balance-of-play upset on the ATAG Server, this limited Spitfire IIa trial will continue until the much-anticipated next patch is released, hopefully in the next week or two -- "Be sure". Then this whole thing shall, I trust, be rendered moot.

Now, to quote Bliss, "Go out and kill each other!" :)

Doggles?

5./JG27Rudelmann
Nov-30-2011, 21:26
If it was nothing but Speed, Climb, and max Dive that made the WWII fighter, why did the 110 give such a poor account of itself? Maneuverability trumps all these, behind pilot training and experience.

And after that the Mosquito! Two of my favorite rides, but if you tell me they are superior fighters, then I'd say, really, Wings of Prey is the game you should be on.