Exiting a turning contest

[miaig]

Hi,
I was reading "In Pursuit" (link here:http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3266) and on page 38, when discussing how to exit a turning contest the author says that it is more efficient to roll 180 inverted rather then upright.
So the scenario is: two planes a chasing each other's tails in a circle and you decide you want out. You roll 180 degrees and you start turning again. My question is why is it more efficient to do this 180 roll canopy down rather than up? The author's explanation is: "This is more efficient insofar as you need not fight inertia and gravity to reverse the controls (push the stick over) but simply exaggerate the already established bank" but I don't understand it.

[ATAG_Colander]

I think the whole idea is that you will loose some altitude by doing that hence gaining some speed.

[Wulf]

Hi,
I was reading "In Pursuit" (link here:http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3266) and on page 38, when discussing how to exit a turning contest the author says that it is more efficient to roll 180 inverted rather then upright.
So the scenario is: two planes a chasing each other's tails in a circle and you decide you want out. You roll 180 degrees and you start turning again. My question is why is it more efficient to do this 180 roll canopy down rather than up? The author's explanation is: "This is more efficient insofar as you need not fight inertia and gravity to reverse the controls (push the stick over) but simply exaggerate the already established bank" but I don't understand it.

I agree with Colander. If you roll into a climbing position you will then proceed to bleed speed as you pull out of the orbit, potentially stalling the aircraft as you do so (remembering that you are probably at or near corner speed to start with), potentially making yourself a sluggish out of control target for the other pilot, who is now fast lining you up in his sights. Roll downwards if you can (ie, have the altitude necessary).

[miaig]

Ok, I've did some tests. In trying to roll canopy down in IL2 I would most often spin out of control. I tried it in DCS as well, with the same results. The Mustang has a G-meter and this is what was happening:
First I would try to turn as fast as possible (that's around 4g, more than that and everything starts shaking). Then, while rolling canopy up the G-meter would show a little under 2 and after starting to turn the other way it would go up to 4 again.
When rolling canopy down I would get only a little over 0g but because the plane was nose down I would pull harder on the stick to bring the plane level resulting in 6g and a spin. If however I would pull slower, it would go to 4g while in turning.
When doing both correctly (meaning not resulting in a spin actually), canopy down would indeed lose altitude but gain speed.

[ATAG_Endless]

You have to stay calm and be smooth with the controls yanking and pulling the stick will do you no favours
You can still pull very effective turns when executing it smoothly . Chanses are your persuer is sweating for a shot and buy you staying calm and performing your turns calmly may just result in your persuer making a mistake and if your enemy is chasing you instead of continuing to turn in one direction push nose down even if in a spit or hurrie while in a turn then roll your plane and turn in the other direction chanses are he will try and pull lead on you and when he realises your not filling his gun sights he will panic yank the stick and try and turn back on you
Resulting in him loosing speed this can turn into your advantage if executed effectively

[Kling]

In general Always, and I really mean ALWAYS try pull as little G as possible! Gforce means weight on the aircraft and more weight(Higher G) means the wings must produces more lift. More lift =more drag=slowing you down.

When in a dogfight try to keep G as low as possible but enough so you can get the upper hand.

Concencus is to always keep drag as low as possible! ;)

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Hi,
I was reading "In Pursuit" (link here:http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3266) and on page 38, when discussing how to exit a turning contest the author says that it is more efficient to roll 180 inverted rather then upright.
So the scenario is: two planes a chasing each other's tails in a circle and you decide you want out. You roll 180 degrees and you start turning again. My question is why is it more efficient to do this 180 roll canopy down rather than up? The author's explanation is: "This is more efficient insofar as you need not fight inertia and gravity to reverse the controls (push the stick over) but simply exaggerate the already established bank" but I don't understand it.

what the author is saying, is that you should conduct a reverse-turn (otherwise known at the first part of a scissors) by rolling inverted, rather than rolling the nose up. (that is if you are in a left turn, you should roll to the left-wing-down in order to reverse the turn). The reason for this is that it means you will keep your nose pointing low, and thus you will not be working against gravity and thus giving up energy.

However;

1. Unless both aircraft are exactly the same air-frames, if two aircraft in CloD are in a turning fight, something is wrong. If the aircraft are different, one of the two should be able to perform better in the turn that the other. So, firstly, (Before you start turning) you should identify the enemy aircraft. You should not enter a turning fight in an inferior turner.

2. IF, for some reason you wish to dis-engaged you have a few options;

A) Dive away. This requires altitude. Just rolls in the direction of the turn and dive. Simples. But beware that ih he can see you, he will follow you down in many cases, then you'll be below him. Bad, bad bad.

B) Concealment. Find a cloud. Fly into it and then jiggle about before exiting.

C) Get your wing-man to clobber him. Where the hell is your wing-man? What are you doing flying alone?

D) Try a high-angle climbing turn. For this you will need energy + and aircraft that can handle the manoevre. Once again. you need to know the relative capability of your aircraft and the opponent before you try this.

E) Reverse the turn/ scissors. Risky. Gives opponent a chance to snap-shot you, or to climb above you. But can be a good last-resort, especially if you can dip below his nose and he has a carburetor and poor forward-down visibility (i.e. he's in an RAF fighter)

There's more options... those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.

[Headshot]

You're on a winner with that book. Very helpful. Most maneuvers will require lots of practice and even when you get it right your opponent may get it righter or just lucky. It's all part of the fun.
I find if I'm in a 109 the safest thing is not to get into a turning fight in the first place. Stay in the vertical and if you lose the E advantage brake off early to regain height. In a spit/ hurry turn fighting is what they're good at. But if you are against a good 109 pilot overshooting him is what you don't want to do so watch his speed. If he barrel rolls or drops his throttle he is hoping you will fly past him and into his line of fire.
Sorry if this is not what you're after.:salute:

[ATAG_Endless]

But if you are against a good 109 pilot overshooting him is what you don't want to do so watch his speed. If he barrel rolls or drops his throttle he is hoping you will fly past him and into his line of fire.
Sorry if this is not what you're after.:salute:

This is one of my favourites got a spit just today doing this in my E1 :devilish: got him to overshoot turned with him an pumped him full of mg rounds but beware is extreemely risky as you are giving the spit an energy advantage

[miaig]

Thanks everybody for your comments.