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View Full Version : Force Feedback bug - MG17 propellor sync bug



aus
Mar-21-2014, 15:38
THIS HAS BEEN REPORTED TO TF VIA BUGTRACKER

Hello folks -

The mg17 on the 109, as well as the MG on the g50 - are not propeller synced. This is an obvious issue as seen when the engine is dead, but mgs can still be fired! :stunned:

8444

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_gear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_gear)

Also, force feedback seems to be buggy. The proper force is there for ailerons and elevator, until a stall is encountered. At which point the force is lost, but not regained. Rather the stick goes into "default mode" where there is a centering force, but no feedback. Shaking from MGs and stalls etc still happens, but no speed dependent resistance, nor absence of force during a stall. This is also an issue on the ground, when the default force is active until the plane starts to achieve airspeed at which force ACTUALLY DIMINISHES, as is proper at such low airspeed. In other words, the default force is higher than the proper force which should be transmitted to the stick. I have confirmed this with G940 and Sidewinder users both.

VO101_Kurfurst
Mar-23-2014, 10:11
I don't see why you could not fire the cowl MG 17s if the engine is dead - they were not operated by the engine (there was one such gun I know of - the hungarian Gebauer MG). There was just an electric interruptor which prevented the guns firing if the propeller blade was in the wrong position. And of course the guns were fired electrically, so if there is no electricity, no fire... it would need checking but I believe if you have an intact battery, the guns would still fire even if the engine stopped.

ATAG_Colander
Mar-23-2014, 10:21
Well, he does have a point when the prop is stopped in front of the guns and you can still shoot.

gavagai
Mar-25-2014, 08:59
Force feedback has never worked well in Clod. In the 109 I still have to fire the guns once and pull the aircraft into a stall in order to enable ffb after an air start.

I haven't tested to see if the stall shake is still linked to firing the 109's cannons with 4.3, but it was pretty annoying in the past.

Great work over all from TF. Clod is not the only flight sim to have trouble implementing ffb.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Mar-25-2014, 10:42
Well, he does have a point when the prop is stopped in front of the guns and you can still shoot.

Yeah that would be the only time they (nose guns) would not shoot as the prop operated an interupter and not a firing mechanism. :thumbsup:

gavagai
Mar-25-2014, 16:01
Another one is the ffb cutting out when I fire the machine guns. Then it returns a second after I stop firing.

aus
Apr-17-2014, 11:52
From what I can tell, the MG17 was fired mechanically, via percussion firing pin, and was only sync'ed with the propellor via an electrical interrupter gear. The bolt of the MG17 was released from the rest, open position and a round chambered when the trigger was pulled, but the firing pin was not activated until the electrical interrupter gear gave the go ahead. check here (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/mg17-belt-feed-mechanism/)

So, lacking other evidence, I suppose that the guns would fire as long as the blade wasn't in front of the guns when the engine were stopped. Still, the rate of fire ought to be propellor RPM dependent to a degree.


I don't see why you could not fire the cowl MG 17s if the engine is dead - they were not operated by the engine (there was one such gun I know of - the hungarian Gebauer MG). There was just an electric interruptor which prevented the guns firing if the propeller blade was in the wrong position. And of course the guns were fired electrically, so if there is no electricity, no fire... it would need checking but I believe if you have an intact battery, the guns would still fire even if the engine stopped.

1lokos
Apr-17-2014, 20:07
In the MG17 (when installed in synchronized mounts), the actual release of the firing pin was interrupted by an oscillating block timed to the propeller shaft. This meant that pulling the trigger would cause the bolt to chamber a round regardless of the propeller position, and if the prop was blocking the muzzle the gun would wait with the round chambered until the prop was clear, at which point the firing pin would strike and the firing sequence would resume.

This dont mean that independent if engine is running or not the shoot will happen, unless if the propeller are in "line of fire"?

Or, the engine oscillating block send command for MG stop firing, not allowing firing.

"Bien, nos es lo mismo, pero es igual". :D

Sokol1

Wulf
Apr-17-2014, 20:43
THIS HAS BEEN REPORTED TO TF VIA BUGTRACKER

Hello folks -

The mg17 on the 109, as well as the MG on the g50 - are not propeller synced. This is an obvious issue as seen when the engine is dead, but mgs can still be fired! :stunned:

8444

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_gear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_gear)

Also, force feedback seems to be buggy. The proper force is there for ailerons and elevator, until a stall is encountered. At which point the force is lost, but not regained. Rather the stick goes into "default mode" where there is a centering force, but no feedback. Shaking from MGs and stalls etc still happens, but no speed dependent resistance, nor absence of force during a stall. This is also an issue on the ground, when the default force is active until the plane starts to achieve airspeed at which force ACTUALLY DIMINISHES, as is proper at such low airspeed. In other words, the default force is higher than the proper force which should be transmitted to the stick. I have confirmed this with G940 and Sidewinder users both.


Well from a purist point of view you may well be right (I don't actually know) but I'd hate to think of the TF people actually investing time on something as inconsequential as synchro gear for the guns. The cyclic rate for the synchro MG 17s and the non-synchro MG 17s is remarkably close so it isn't as though the non-synchro guns would confer any great advantage.

aus
Apr-19-2014, 12:32
This dont mean that independent if engine is running or not the shoot will happen, unless if the propeller are in "line of fire"?

Or, the engine oscillating block send command for MG stop firing, not allowing firing.

"Bien, nos es lo mismo, pero es igual". :D

Sokol1


Quite. :)

1lokos
May-24-2014, 20:19
WW1 synchronizer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faZiS1CYZs0

Sokol1