This is what they do lately...really??

[Tvrdi]

So, at the BOS forum :die:...the new policy is to remove all the topics which consists any reports (reports, not natively negative posts!) which are not in favour of the sim. So the last one (the one which was too much for me) was with title "Some thoughts on Multiplayer Early Access" was all about MP net code etc. So there some ppl reported how they had slowdowns and stutters etc. Which is ok for alpha I guess. But man, they quickly removed the topic to the closed founders/buyers section so the ppl who never bought the sim couldnt see it anymore.
What a lame policy....This is just another pathetic move of you know who...
Im starting to regret 50 bucks I spent on that trash....
What they want to hide from ppl who never bought the sim?

[JG5_Emil]

There is a certain over zealous mod on that forum that deletes posts left right and center that aren't even negative and yet has a couple of special little freinds who are allows to abuse people left right and center. In fact over zealous is a slight understatement.

Pretty much gave up posting over there and I'm not a BOS hater or anything (rather a sim supporter) but when you make posts that aren't even bad and they vanish two minutes later it starts to get really annoying.

That forum will end up with about 20 people all agreeing with each other on everything :grrr:

[ATAG_Bliss]

Yeah I figured that one out when my 1st 7 posts over there all vanished. I've long stop posting. By the looks of things so have many other people.

[AllMattersFecal]

That forum will end up with about 20 people all agreeing with each other on everything :grrr:

I can't get over the irony of this statement.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Ha - Jamz just posted an issue about his controls and the thread was hidden/moved into a private section after a couple minutes. Poor dude lol.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Ha - Jamz just posted an issue about his controls and the thread was hidden/moved into a private section after a couple minutes. Poor dude lol.

Sup Bliss ~S~

I had a bitch about the controls and that frigin black screen issue..Deleting files to make the game load, then it wipes your key bindings..

I asked a question but then discovered myself that one of the files you were told to delete shouldnt be deleted (in my case) it was this file that when put back it restored my settings..

I went back and edited the thread..Im dont know anything about it being moved...nor do I care tbh lol

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Some lonely soul must have a really exiting life sitting there watching every new thread come into that forum...Nice one

[AllMattersFecal]

Some lonely soul must have a really exiting life sitting there watching every new thread come into that forum...Nice one
Agreed.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Ah, you must have access to it then. Imagine the silver people who don't have access to the founders forum. They make a post and it just gets moved to where they can never see it again. That would kinda irk me.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Ah, you must have access to it then. Imagine the silver people who don't have access to the founders forum. They make a post and it just gets moved to where they can never see it again. That would kinda irk me.

yup

[ATAG_Bliss]

Some lonely soul must have a really exiting life sitting there watching every new thread come into that forum...Nice one

Yeah - the mods must have been told how important it is to keep criticisms and concern away from the prying eyes of potential customers. Better to hide that stuff in private forums for business sake. Wouldn't want your customers knowing how the game really is I guess.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Yeah - the mods must have been told how important it is to keep criticisms and concern away from the prying eyes of potential customers. Better to hide that stuff in private forums for business sake. Wouldn't want your customers knowing how the game really is I guess.

Yea, well I can see the logic tbh..

The banana forums and CoD was a prime example of this

[ATAG_Bliss]

Yea, well I can see the logic tbh..

The banana forums and CoD was a prime example of this

The banana forum suffered from poor moderation from personal insults. All the bugs reported and the bug tracker that started because of it was actually really good. But I don't agree that anything that's criticism hidden and anything positive stays public. That is simply misleading people who read the forums or potential buyers.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

True but do you really need to publish bugs to potential buyers I don't see the point tbh..

Someone that doesn't have a clue how the system works with bugs etc etc and Alpha/Beta setups could be confused and not purchase the game imo..

I honestly think that Bugs and issues should be for members that have the game only..no need for anyone else that doesn't have it to read all that stuff

Access to developers notes and general forum sections should be all that a potential buyer needs to see

[ATAG_Bliss]

True but do you really need to publish bugs to potential buyers I don't see the point tbh..

Someone that doesn't have a clue how the system works with bugs etc etc and Alpha/Beta setups could be confused and not purchase the game imo..

I honestly think that Bugs and issues should be for members that have the game only..no need for anyone else that doesn't have it to read all that stuff

Access to developers notes and general forum sections should be all that a potential buyer needs to see

Yes I most definitely think most people want to know about the product good and bad to help them make a decision on purchase. Again if x player buys the game then finds out bug x,y, z he could be upset about it because he didn't know it had that issue before hand and even more upset when he realizes all that stuff has been hidden from the public eye.

There's no other flight sim dev team that does that. Dcs is a prime example where bugs and the threads with bugs are stickied and kept clean. Of course in private these are also discussed. But as a customer and a consumer I think that's very misleading to only show the good side of things and quickly hide any problems. So I can't agree with you there.

[JG5_Emil]

When someone said to a couple of guys who were ex USAF pilots "thanks for sharing your experiences" I also wanted to thank them (it's nice when real military pilots are on forums as well) so quoted and added a +1, there wasn't more to add on the matter. Minutes later that was deleted....

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Yes I most definitely think most people want to know about the product good and bad to help them make a decision on purchase. Again if x player buys the game then finds out bug x,y, z he could be upset about it because he didn't know it had that issue before hand and even more upset when he realizes all that stuff has been hidden from the public eye.

There's no other flight sim dev team that does that. Dcs is a prime example where bugs and the threads with bugs are stickied and kept clean. Of course in private these are also discussed. But as a customer and a consumer I think that's very misleading to only show the good side of things and quickly hide any problems. So I can't agree with you there.

Yea I hear yer...

I can see both sides of the argument..I don't know which way Id go If i were them tbh

Let em get on with it... time will tell if they have done things and are doing things right

[ATAG_Colander]

In my opinion, if you do an open alpha testing you have to do one of two things:
1.- Make clear to every tester that they are not to talk about what they see outside the closed alpha forum and kick out any offender.
2.- Be prepared to have negative comments posted to the world to see.

I don't think they did any.

[Tvrdi]

In my opinion, if you do an open alpha testing you have to do one of two things:
1.- Make clear to every tester that they are not to talk about what they see outside the closed alpha forum and kick out any offender.
2.- Be prepared to have negative comments posted to the world to see.

I don't think they did any.

Exactly. Unfortunately my limited english doesnt permit me to be as clear as you. At least not when my head is still "hot" lol. Thanks.


Yeah - the mods must have been told how important it is to keep criticisms and concern away from the prying eyes of potential customers.
Its not even or only concerns and criticism they are deleting/moving. Its threads like the one I mentioned in my first post. It was all about ppl reporting what they like about MP and some pointed out about stutters and bad performance and then, there you go, BUM! The topic get moved to founders section.
they decided to make preorders and public alpha wide open....why all the hiding if they dont have anything to hide....Im affraid its just the proof that engine has seroius problems (ROF has too in some specific way) with netcode, and how the engine handles AI and more than 20 ppl on the server...ironically, the stuff for which CLOD was initially crucified - BOS fails...at least in alpha state but the release is close so we will see....

[LuseKofte]

I hate the way they treat legit concern about the development. I hate the fact that they have a discussion topic on their diary . When they does not give answer to question asked.
They should be more open and have better people to communicate for them. But I find most flight sim distributor/developer very much the same way.
We are a very small part of computer entertaining branch but our interest require additional and in many cases expensive equipment. Mine total got a cost about 2500$
So I need more of the genre on the market so I can fully enjoy it.
I find forums like this more helpful and giving than the forums made for the game. So I wish for a bit more tolerance and understanding for this game. But I fully agree on most of the critique written here, it is kind of frustrating not being able to tell the developers how they actually could do to make this better, without to much effort .

[startrekmike]

I am going to be the devils advocate here and perhaps that is just the role I seem to always take on this specific subforum but it is what it is.

Anyway, I think that there is a lot of talk on this thread about "misleading customers" and I just don't see it, at least not yet.

The fact is, we live in a world where first impressions can make or break a game and everyone here should understand more than most how much a bad first impression can hurt a sim that has potential, seriously, how many folks who were avid IL-2 1946 fans happily transitioned fully to Cliffs of Dover when it was released? Probably not many, not when you consider it's state on release.

So, to get back on track, BoS is less than half done, seriously, let that thought stick in the mind for a minute, the sim is literally still in it's early stages of actual development and as such, it makes sense that they don't want the first impression of a non-early access member to be based on negative feedback about a bug that is probably going to get fixed the next week anyway.

As for moving posts, again, it makes sense, the moderators are not sitting around a table in a dark room conspiring to ruin the day of every ATAG member that goes over their to post, they don't sit around thinking of ways to undermine your work, they are just doing a job that perhaps makes them look a lot more totalitarian than they really are.

Seriously, think about it, as I said before, they are not even half-way to release, any post that ends up on the main forums complaining about a bug is not really posting in the right place to begin with, they have a place to post bugs and that place is reserved for those that are in a position to actually report them, posting about bugs on the open forums won't mean much when the sim is less than half done.

Lets put this into perspective, lets say that you release a closed beta version of your big TF 5.0 mod, you have maybe 30 testers who you are working with and you make a private subforum with a system in place to post bugs in the most useful format possible, now, one guy among the testers decides that he is going to post on a open forum about a long list of bugs, he makes it sound like it will be the worst thing ever even though it is still in such early state that it stands to reason that these bugs will be squashed in time anyway.

Now, I might go on that open forum and see this post, it might even make me think twice before coming back and if enough folks do the same thing that the first guy did, imagine the effect it could have on your products reputation even before it comes out.

Now imagine having a beta that anyone can buy into, imagine how hard it is to keep the fact that it is still in development in perspective for folks on the forums, imagine how hard it is to walk that line between giving folks access and risking your products reputation because a few bad eggs don't understand how early access really works.

I have only today jumped on the early access myself, it is not a product that anyone can really judge at this juncture, there are many missing features, many place holders and it is very clear that there is more to come, some may not like it for political reasons, some may not like it because they have loyalty to other products or development teams, some may even not like it just because of it's engine and that is fine, it does not effect me in the slightest as I can make my own choices but still, looking beyond all the bad blood, the politics and the in-fighting, BoS is still less than half done and yet there are some on this forum that are eager to stick a fork in it and say it's done, I don't get that, it defies logic.

On a side note, considering the general attitude that I see on thus subforum, I have to wonder just what was in those posts that some of you posted on the BoS forums that the mods removed, I mean, some may say that perfectly innocent posts were removed maliciously by the mods but I would need to see those posts before I honestly believe they were so innocent.

Seriously guys, looking past all of the established bad blood and politics, it is half done, even I can see that there is a ton of stuff that is simply not in place yet, why make it a whipping boy on this subforum? Why even have a BoS subforum if it is disliked so much?

[Tvrdi]

You completely missed our point. Again, i dont hate BoS, i bought it. im playing it. I dont like how they deal with things...its alpha...let the ppl talk in public forum what they discovered. I dont like how they manipulate with words, all candy and sugar, unlike with Luthier, and then we hear sry posts....and, when someone makes valid concerns about some limitations about game engine net code etc, they delete threads and call us liars... then it turns out it was all true....instead of honest approach "thank u for report, we are working on this"

[vranac]

So, to get back on track, BoS is less than half done, seriously, let that thought stick in the mind for a minute, the sim is literally still in it's early stages of actual development and as such, it makes sense that they don't want the first impression of a non-early access member to be based on negative feedback about a bug that is probably going to get fixed the next week anyway.

As for moving posts, again, it makes sense, the moderators are not sitting around a table in a dark room conspiring to ruin the day of every ATAG member that goes over their to post, they don't sit around thinking of ways to undermine your work, they are just doing a job that perhaps makes them look a lot more totalitarian than they really are.

Seriously, think about it, as I said before, they are not even half-way to release, any post that ends up on the main forums complaining about a bug is not really posting in the right place to begin with, they have a place to post bugs and that place is reserved for those that are in a position to actually report them, posting about bugs on the open forums won't mean much when the sim is less than half done.

Lets put this into perspective, lets say that you release a closed beta version of your big TF 5.0 mod, you have maybe 30 testers who you are working with and you make a private subforum with a system in place to post bugs in the most useful format possible, now, one guy among the testers decides that he is going to post on a open forum about a long list of bugs, he makes it sound like it will be the worst thing ever even though it is still in such early state that it stands to reason that these bugs will be squashed in time anyway.

No, that sim is a few months from the release. Yes it's still alpha but in final stage now. I'm sure that they have very strict contract with the same company that pushed CloD a bit to early.


Oleg: If only we had more time and more money to fully polish the game before release, and do a lot more than ever made into the final patch, everyone would have been a million times happier today. Us, the fans, and especially the management. It could have been a great hit. It should have been a great hit. Of course, no one is blameless, but really releasing it in the state it was released in was a very bad decision. As you can see by the final patch, we were fully capable of doing a good product; the final patch was done purely out of personal desires of the team, while the team was supposedly fully engaged in working on a sequel. If we did not work on the sequel, and just worked on improving Cliffs of Dover, we could have done the work we did in much less time.

We would've been playing that theater a year ago already on engine that is more advanced in any way.

People who bought that game in pre-release are not beta testers, they have "real" beta testers for that. They asked the founders to post about bugs in a closed section and that's ok.
But questions about FM and DM and engine capabilities aren't bugs.

On the Russian forums situation is completely different and you can find a lot of info.