Bf109E-1 & E-1/B missing ammo in the wing guns?

[Karaya]

Hello,

In Cliffs the ammo counter on the E-1 shows 420 rounds for each wing mounted gun, however it seems that IRL the correct amount of ammunition was 500 rounds per gun according to the "Ladeplan".

2000 rounds total for the cowling MGs (1000 per gun), 1000 total for the wing mounted MGs (500 per gun) - all up weight of 2573kg

8729

And the Bf109E-3s Ladeplan for completion

2000 rounds total for the cowling MGs (1000 per gun), 120 rounds total for the wing cannons (60 per gun) - all up weight of 2608kg

8762

[Mattias]

Hello,

In Cliffs the ammo counter on the E-1 shows 420 rounds for each wing mounted gun, however it seems that IRL the correct amount of ammunition was 500 rounds per gun according to the "Ladeplan".

8729

:salute: Karaya,

I never thought of this, but you might be right... thinking of it I've read the 109E-1 had 500 rpg somewhere else as well. We will investigate :thumbsup:

Cheers/m

[ATAG_Snapper]

:salute: Karaya,

I never thought of this, but you might be right... thinking of it I've read the 109E-1 had 500 rpg somewhere else as well. We will investigate :thumbsup:

Cheers/m

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!whaa


:)

[Mattias]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!whaa


:)

:salute:

those 2x80 MG rounds will be what finally tilts the scale in the favour of the blue side :devilish::)

[ATAG_Colander]

Don't know you guys but I've never ran out of bullets :)

[Mattias]

Don't know you guys but I've never ran out of bullets :)

Hehe, same here -I seem to run out of water coolant long before I run out of ammo :D

[ATAG_Snapper]

Seriously, if 500 rounds is historical, then that's what it should be.:thumbsup:

Selfishly, anything that extends the loitering/fighting duration of an opponent is fine by me -- I love extended dogfights. :D

Yesterday I was engaged on an extended one vs one over Occupied France (Dunkerque map). We were evenly matched and neither could quite get a firing solution on the other. What a hoot! Suddenly I was PK'd by a 2nd 109 that arrived on the scene.......and the fun was over. :ind:

[Little_D]

Hi Snapper,

you know that even for the E3 and E4 it was possible to put 100 cannonrounds for each wing in the plane? 60 rounds was the smalest option, was not often in use because of the weight, but i would love it, most of the time i have no ammo left but enough fuel to stay 45 minutes longer in the air :)

regards

Little_D

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hi Snapper,

you know that even for the E3 and E4 it was possible to put 100 cannonrounds for each wing in the plane? 60 rounds was the smalest option, was not often in use because of the weight, but i would love it, most of the time i have no ammo left but enough fuel to stay 45 minutes longer in the air :)

regards

Little_D

But....but....but....with all that extra ammo how could you expect to outclimb a Spit? :devilish:

:)

[Karaya]

Hi Snapper,

you know that even for the E3 and E4 it was possible to put 100 cannonrounds for each wing in the plane? 60 rounds was the smalest option, was not often in use because of the weight, but i would love it, most of the time i have no ammo left but enough fuel to stay 45 minutes longer in the air :)

regards

Little_D

Are you sure about those 100 rounds?

The MGFF & FF/M were drum fed and to my knowledge there were only 2 choices in capacity for these guns, either 60 rounds or 90 and the latter was mostly used in 1942/43 on the FW190. Havent heard of more than 60 shells being used on the FF & FF/M on the 109E before.

[Karaya]

Seriously, if 500 rounds is historical, then that's what it should be.:thumbsup:

Selfishly, anything that extends the loitering/fighting duration of an opponent is fine by me -- I love extended dogfights. :D

Yesterday I was engaged on an extended one vs one over Occupied France (Dunkerque map). We were evenly matched and neither could quite get a firing solution on the other. What a hoot! Suddenly I was PK'd by a 2nd 109 that arrived on the scene.......and the fun was over. :ind:

I know you were fighting it out on that map with me & Reinhart yesterday, though you bailed out safely, your pilot whizzed right past my cockpit :thumbsup:

8733

[Little_D]

Are you sure about those 100 rounds?

The MGFF & FF/M were drum fed and to my knowledge there were only 2 choices in capacity for these guns, either 60 rounds or 90 and the latter was mostly used in 1942/43 on the FW190. Havent heard of more than 60 shells being used on the FF & FF/M on the 109E before.

Hi Karaya,

you are right was only 90, we had this discussion in JG2 too with my old wingleader. i will try to find it again what he shows me. as i said it was not used very mutch because of the weigh, but it is possible.


Snapper,

with this extra bullets no need for outclimbing the spit :)

regards

Little_D

[ATAG_Snapper]

Yes, I remember that! ("Dang, I wish that could've stayed one vs one!" LOL). That was great teamwork that you guys had. At least I survived that dogfight, short as it was. I get shot down a lot. :D

[Catseye]

I know you were fighting it out on that map with me & Reinhart yesterday, though you bailed out safely, your pilot whizzed right past my cockpit :thumbsup:

8733

It's just horrible when your cockpit gets "whizzed" on.

It stains and makes the ground-crew very unhappy. :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

It's just horrible when your cockpit gets "whizzed" on.

It stains and makes the ground-crew very unhappy. :)

I aimed best I could! :devilish:

:)

To our more cultured friends: "whizzing" is a slang for "peeing" :D

[Artist]

Hello,

In Cliffs the ammo counter on the E-1 shows 420 rounds for each wing mounted gun, however it seems that IRL the correct amount of ammunition was 500 rounds per gun according to the "Ladeplan".

8729

Hi Karaya,

a bit late in this discussion, but may I kindly ask you to create a new issue with this in the bugtracker here at http://tfbt.nuvturais.de? (And, if you haven't done so already, please do read the guidelines here first: http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf/boards/4.)

And please include a link back to this thread in the description, so that people can find the discussion here.

Thank you very much,
Artist

[Stefan]

good that i wasn't too greedy to install the 4.31 patch since i saw the first bug reports in the forum chat. i'm a damn smart one!

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Hi Snapper,

you know that even for the E3 and E4 it was possible to put 100 cannonrounds for each wing in the plane? 60 rounds was the smalest option, was not often in use because of the weight, but i would love it, most of the time i have no ammo left but enough fuel to stay 45 minutes longer in the air :)

regards

Little_D

Actually more often 55 rounds were loaded, because the MG/FF mounted in the wing had a tendency to jam... especially when loaded with a full 60 rounds.

As far as 100 rounds... never heard of that.

Re. the MG... if it needs more rounds, that would be fine... of course that means more weight for the E-1... the game calculates weight based on every single round carried.

[ATAG_Colander]

No problem. I'll just fire 40 rounds before take off :)

[Karaya]

Actually more often 55 rounds were loaded, because the MG/FF mounted in the wing had a tendency to jam... especially when loaded with a full 60 rounds.

As far as 100 rounds... never heard of that.

Re. the MG... if it needs more rounds, that would be fine... of course that means more weight for the E-1... the game calculates weight based on every single round carried.

I think the E-1 can handle 5 more kg ;)

And on a sidenote: Logic would dictate that the E-1 should reach its historical fully up weight with the increased ammo load! That would mean lowering the current empty weight in the FM by ~5kg if anything...

The historical all up weight of the E-1 is listed in the Ladeplan I posted above (2573kg)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I think the E-1 can handle 5 more kg ;)

And on a sidenote: Logic would dictate that the E-1 should reach its historical fully up weight with the increased ammo load! That would mean lowering the current empty weight in the FM by ~5kg if anything...

The historical all up weight of the E-1 is listed in the Ladeplan I posted above (2573kg)

Weights of the aircraft are set on the basis of unloaded weight... ie. without ammunition or fuel. So adding additional ammunition will not change the base unloaded weight.

[Karaya]

I know how Cliffs FM handles weights, I was heavily involved with FM creation over at SAS and IL-2 46 & Cliffs are for the most part identical.

Again I think it would be best to adjust the empty weight down to get the aircraft to meet its historical all up weight when fully equipped in Cliffs. The empty weight is not set in stone but fully adjustable by simple text editing, so why not subtract the weight of these 160 rounds? I dont know how your FM guys handle it - if you aim to hit the historical all up weight or if you set the historical empty weight and then just let the game add up fuel, ammo, oil, ...

This is not a trivial question as ammo weight is not based on the weight of the entire round in Cliffs but solely on the projectile weight specified in the respective weapon's config.

[Wulf]

It has always been my understanding that the high capacity MGFF drum was, as Karaya mentioned, developed specifically for use with the FW 190 A. Given that the early A series 190s didn't even use outer wing mounted cannon, it seems most unlikely that the high capacity drum would have even been conceived, let alone be in production, during the BoB period. However, even if it was available, it seems equally unlikely that it could have been shoehorned into the wing of a 109 E without significant modifications. At the very least I'd have thought it would have necessitated the manufacture of enlarged 'bulged' panels for the under-wing surfaces.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I know how Cliffs FM handles weights, I was heavily involved with FM creation over at SAS and IL-2 46 & Cliffs are for the most part identical.

Again I think it would be best to adjust the empty weight down to get the aircraft to meet its historical all up weight when fully equipped in Cliffs. The empty weight is not set in stone but fully adjustable by simple text editing, so why not subtract the weight of these 160 rounds? I dont know how your FM guys handle it - if you aim to hit the historical all up weight or if you set the historical empty weight and then just let the game add up fuel, ammo, oil, ...

This is not a trivial question as ammo weight is not based on the weight of the entire round in Cliffs but solely on the projectile weight specified in the respective weapon's config.

CoD terms 'unloaded weight' differently than the Luftwaffe did... CoD includes oil, coolant and various other loads in the unloaded weight... only that which can be added or subtracted by the player is considered as an additional 'loaded weight'.

[Karaya]

Yes, IL-2 is a bit weird when it comes to empty weight, you cannot just slap in real life weights and expect the all up weight to be anywhere near the historical value. However isnt the actual all up weight after everything is added up shown on the loadout screen? We know how much fuel the Bf109 carried (304kg), the amount of oil (27kg), the amount of ammo (88 for the E-1, 99kg for the E-3), etc. so all there is to do is adjust the "empty weight" (or whatever we want to call it) so that the final result matches the historical flying weight.

[Mattias]

Actually more often 55 rounds were loaded, because the MG/FF mounted in the wing had a tendency to jam... especially when loaded with a full 60 rounds.


:salute:

True :thumbsup: If we ever implement random gun jams this loadout should be an option :thumbsup:

Chers/m

[Flugber.]

It seems that the problem was not in the weight of 160 additional rounds… I somewhere read long ago, the problem was that such a long cartridge-belt for 500 rounds very often jammed in the ammunition box of wing, so in reality in them were forced to load a shortened version for 420 rounds.

However to my regret, I now can not recall where I saw this information… therefore I can not give a link to it. :ind:

[Flugber.]

…
2000 rounds total for the cowling MGs (1000 per gun), 1000 total for the wing mounted MGs (500 per gun) - all up weight of 2573kg

8729
…
2000 rounds total for the cowling MGs (1000 per gun), 120 rounds total for the wing cannons (60 per gun) - all up weight of 2608kg

8762
The above pages can also be found in this Handbook: L.Dv.228/3 (Entwurf) 'BF 109 E1 und E3: Beschreibung, Einbau- und Prüfvorschrift für die starre Schußwaffe (gültig auch für BF 109 E4 mit MG-FF "M" und BF 109 T)', Edition 1939.

Also, it can be seen, and other notes about the 500 rounds in the ammunition box of the wing MG.17 on the E-1:



A. Beschreibung » II. Beschreibung der Einzelteile und Gruppen » 2. Flächen-MG 17 mit Zubehör (BF 109 E1):

a) Ungesteuerte MG 17

13312
'Leistung: Jedes der beiden Fl.-MG 17 hat einen Munitionsvorrat von 500 Schuß und schießt ungesteuertes Dauerfeuer' ©.

c) Endlose Gelenkgurte 17 n. A.

13313
'Gurteinziehband und Spulvorrichtung für Gurteinziehband: Für die ungesteuerten Fl.-MG 17 wird je ein endloser Patronengurt mit 500 Gliedern benötigt, dessen Enden mittels Splint 1,8×30 mm verbunden sind' ©.



However, as I wrote above – I've seen information that, in reality, in the ammunition box of wing was loaded the cartridge-belt of reduced length – at 420 rounds:

... the problem was that such a long cartridge-belt for 500 rounds very often jammed in the ammunition box of wing, so in reality in them were forced to load a shortened version for 420 rounds.
…
But at the moment, it while only my words that certainly does not prove anything…