blenheim turrett

[ATAG_Knuckles]

hey gang

I would like to start a discussion concerning the rear blenheim turret, as most of you know I am relegated to that position for now,so my plan is to make it worth the pilots time to have a live gunner, I have now spent many hours in this position and have a few issues

so far I have not witnesed a single "strike" on an enemy aircraft although many times a 109 has filled my gunsight up close as i am firing, can this be a loadout issue
or just the fact of it being a puny single 303????

consensus at this time on loadout is a combination of A.P. and Dewilde due to the fact that most shots will be engine
my quest is to make this gunner position a formidable one that can achieve results

i also understand the load out is not up to me but the pilot

so steer me in the right direction here as i look forward to being a bit more useful

knuckles/Denis

[Torric270]

hey gang

I would like to start a discussion concerning the rear blenheim turret, as most of you know I am relegated to that position for now,so my plan is to make it worth the pilots time to have a live gunner, I have now spent many hours in this position and have a few issues

so far I have not witnesed a single "strike" on an enemy aircraft although many times a 109 has filled my gunsight up close as i am firing, can this be a loadout issue
or just the fact of it being a puny single 303????

consensus at this time on loadout is a combination of A.P. and Dewilde due to the fact that most shots will be engine
my quest is to make this gunner position a formidable one that can achieve results

i also understand the load out is not up to me but the pilot

so steer me in the right direction here as i look forward to being a bit more useful

knuckles/Denis

I have shot at things on the ground, hangers, other planes, etc. to try and zero in where the bullets are striking.

Also, I just tried it, under quick missions: bomber intercept Calais: setup with 9 Blennie bombers, I switched the 09s to 1 plane to start and work your way up. This way you can shoot the nearby blennies (I know, evil) but you can see and hear your strikes and see the results, % bullets hit etc. Just jump in the mission and hit ai autopilot and jump into the gunner.

Won't help with load-outs though unless you copy the mission over to FMB.

[DRock]

hey gang

I would like to start a discussion concerning the rear blenheim turret, as most of you know I am relegated to that position for now,so my plan is to make it worth the pilots time to have a live gunner, I have now spent many hours in this position and have a few issues

so far I have not witnesed a single "strike" on an enemy aircraft although many times a 109 has filled my gunsight up close as i am firing, can this be a loadout issue
or just the fact of it being a puny single 303????

consensus at this time on loadout is a combination of A.P. and Dewilde due to the fact that most shots will be engine
my quest is to make this gunner position a formidable one that can achieve results

i also understand the load out is not up to me but the pilot

so steer me in the right direction here as i look forward to being a bit more useful

knuckles/Denis


Hey Knuckes.

I have a lot of armour piercing rounds in my rear gunner position. I also have gun sighted in at 500. It works great, but with a single 303., you have to be accurate.

I use short bursts and zoom right in on him.

He may still get you, but he will pay a price for his encounter.

Bear pilot and I became so good at this (pre TF4.0) 109s started keeping their distance from us.

It's definitely a lot harder to shoot a target that's following you than vise versa.

Hope you get better soon, my friend.:salute:

[ATAG_Freya]

RE: turret gun training missions

Does anyone know if it's possible to create a mission with a script that would damage the guns of a 109e-1 (or any plane) so that it can attack with less or no effect, thereby making a turret gunnery training mission that can last long enough to get some practice in? Perhaps using weapon damages in a script such as these: (found at 1c)

part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00BeltBroken
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Charged
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Failure
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Jammed
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00LineDamaged

If these (or one of these) were inflicted onto a few single aircraft flights of attacking e/a, would they still attack, or turn for home?
If anyone has some type of script that I could mess around with please send it to me. :D (I'm no good with scripts but would love to figure out at least one!)

I know that 'on the job' training is way more fun, but this would be great for training and testing purposes. (ie loadouts)


Cheers!

[1lokos]

so far I have not witnesed a single "strike" on an enemy aircraft although many times a 109 has filled my gunsight up close as i am firing, can this be a loadout issue
or just the fact of it being a puny single 303????


Using default ammo - offline - QM - Bomber Intercept - Calais , you cause damage on enemy and friends planes with Blenheim rear turret at close range.
Set Banks damages script with the mission, to see results.

http://i57.tinypic.com/29xhelf.jpg

I got 1 kill, PK. :devilish:

On a "duel" with Bf 109 "parked" on his 6'oclock is 99% sure that you lost...

2 or 3 drum of ammo on friendly Blenheim don't cause fatal failures - is easy to kill the pilot - only in one occasion set a fire in aileron what induce crew to bail out.

Tip - At start of mission kill 1 or 2 Blenheim pilots, this increase the chance of Bf 109 attack your plane. :devilish:

Script to see damage:



using System;
using maddox.game;
using maddox.game.world;

public class Mission : maddox.game.AMission
{

public override void OnAircraftDamaged(int missionNumber, string shortName, AiAircraft Aircraft, AiDamageInitiator DamageFrom, part.NamedDamageTypes WhatDamaged)
{
base.OnAircraftDamaged(missionNumber, shortName, Aircraft, DamageFrom, WhatDamaged);

if (DamageFrom.Player != null )
{
GamePlay.gpLogServer (null, "{0} hits {1} : {2} \n", new object [] {DamageFrom.Player, shortName, WhatDamaged});//Test
}

}
}





Sokol1

[ATAG_Freya]

Here is a 'mission' to practice gunnery and test loadouts/range for the Blenheim turret gun. Basically, waves of 109's attack you and if you make it far enough they all go away, and you can bomb some ships. Nothing fancy, but if your doing it right you'll find it's a fun and addictive arcade style shooter to test and improve your skills with the "BB gun". It has a script (borrowed from this forum and butchered accordingly :D) that de-claws the 109E-1 rendering 3 of it's 4 MG's useless. It also has the Banks damges script mentioned in the above post by SOKOL1 (thankyou!) that allows you to see the damage inflicted by your masterful marksmanship. D/L and check the readme! Enjoy!



http://www.mediafire.com/download/21apnr3tfrrks6t/Air_Gunnery.zip

[ATAG_Knuckles]

freya


thamk you thank you

i was going to ask if someone would do this , as i mentioned before i would like to make this position worthwhile
ive got some practicing to do


knucks/denis

sorry for the poor typing it sucks with one hand errrrrrr

[1lokos]

Fun mission. :D

First time I got 6 Bf 109, 2 PK and other water radiator or engine damage. :devilish:

But in second try they revenge, at some moment are four attacking at same time - too much for my 75 bullets drum - and killed the gunner. :D

Sokol1

[ATAG_Knuckles]

already doing well with this

somethin we have needed for a long time

would like to get feedback on loadout, then if we could just get all the blennie pilots to comply with oue findings we may just start making a difference

so far i have been gettin good hits with a combination of armor piercing and dewilde concergence of 300

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

RE: turret gun training missions

Does anyone know if it's possible to create a mission with a script that would damage the guns of a 109e-1 (or any plane) so that it can attack with less or no effect, thereby making a turret gunnery training mission that can last long enough to get some practice in? Perhaps using weapon damages in a script such as these: (found at 1c)

part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00BeltBroken
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Charged
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Failure
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00Jammed
part.NamedDamageTypes.Machinegun00LineDamaged

If these (or one of these) were inflicted onto a few single aircraft flights of attacking e/a, would they still attack, or turn for home?
If anyone has some type of script that I could mess around with please send it to me. :D (I'm no good with scripts but would love to figure out at least one!)

I know that 'on the job' training is way more fun, but this would be great for training and testing purposes. (ie loadouts)


Cheers!

Hi.

just change the ammo belts in the E1's to all Boatachung (cant remember how its spelt) ammo and it wont usually damage you.
Or if you want to practice gunning in a German plane load up attacking Brit planes with just Observer Ammunition.

S!!

[ATAG_Freya]

Thanks HB! I've loaded the 109's in my mission as default for the D/L version, but have changed the ones in my own personal installed mission to have the E-1's firing boebat...bobafett...bowbauchuang.. whatever it is. Because what is better than a 109E-1 firing FOUR guns loaded with B-chung? A 109E-1 firing ONE gun loaded with bowtangching. Makes for good, safe practice!

@Knuckles- Glad you enjoy the training mission! I've found that setting the convergence to 400 and even 500 works well (why a single gun has convergence setting is beyond me, but it does! In the vertical I suppose), and use AP and DW too, though I haven't got too crazy with ammo testing yet. I find this mission addictive and once I start I can't be bothered to do anything but shoooooot. PS. Hope your healing up!

@ Sokol - I always find my ammo drum is empty at the worst possible time!! :grrr:

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Thanks HB! I've loaded the 109's in my mission as default for the D/L version, but have changed the ones in my own personal installed mission to have the E-1's firing boebat...bobafett...bowbauchuang.. whatever it is. Because what is better than a 109E-1 firing FOUR guns loaded with B-chung? A 109E-1 firing ONE gun loaded with bowtangching. Makes for good, safe practice!

@Knuckles- Glad you enjoy the training mission! I've found that setting the convergence to 400 and even 500 works well (why a single gun has convergence setting is beyond me, but it does! In the vertical I suppose), and use AP and DW too, though I haven't got too crazy with ammo testing yet. I find this mission addictive and once I start I can't be bothered to do anything but shoooooot. PS. Hope your healing up!

@ Sokol - I always find my ammo drum is empty at the worst possible time!! :grrr:


Hi Freya.

No probs. Good idea about the 1 gun too S!.

I did a similar training mission for gunner practice. Me and 2 ai wingmen in Blenhiems, in line abreast formation (so if the ai 109's attack your wingmen you get some practice shooting to your 7-8 or 4-5 position too) i just put the Blenhiem on the course auto pilot and jump in the turret. I have a seperate key setup for gunning and use my rudder pedals and joy to key to turn the turret and the mouse to move and fire the gun, i also set my left toe brake to zoom out and the right to zoom in. This works very well for me, i have my left hand on my throtle with buttons mapped for 30,70,90 deg fov, aim down the sight and take control of the gun and my right hand on the mouse.

I found the most effective ammunition mix for me against 109's to be 1 round of Buckingham (white tracer incendiary) and 1 round of De Wilde, this gives PK's, oil and water rad damage, engines shot out and good flamers. I dont use tracer in fighters but use it in the turrets cause if the enemy are attacking you i guess they already know your there lol. Due to the way the Buckingham is modeled in Cliffs it gives a bright white light trace (instead of a smoke trace) as well as a good incendiary effect, so you might as well use this as theres not much point in using normal tracers because the Buckingham trace's and starts fires.

You've got 25 drums in the back of the Blenhiem so dont be shy with your ammo, but time your reloads well. If you think your low on ammo 30rds or less and you have 8-10 seconds to spare, shoot them off and fit a new drum to be ready for the next attack. It would be nice to hit a reload key and fit a new drum, but not possible.

If you having probs seeing your tracers set the mission time to 7pm and fly towards the sun. The tracers show up really well.

I use 300 for the vertical setting on the gun and this works well for me and the way i shoot, but anywhere between 300-500 works ok and i try to not open fire at much over 300.

Remember to allow for your own speed as well as the enemys. For example if the enemy is at my 7 o clock level i use the left side of the small inner ring to aim with + lead for his speed and direction, if he's at 8 o clock i use the left side of the sight but further out between the inner and outer rings + lead for his speed and direction, if he's at 9 o clock i use the left side of the outer ring + lead for his speed and direction. Same for up and down, if he's low aim low and visa versa. Maybe not this exagerated but it will give you the general idea.

I know what you mean this mission is insanely addictive.

You may already know the above but hopefully it may be of interest to some new gunners.

Hub S!!

[ATAG_Freya]

Great info Hub!! Thankyou! I think when I get time I'm going to 'refine' and clean up this mission some. Add a wingman or two, and MORE 109's. Also, the way you use your rudder pedals is one of the best ideas I've ever heard. Joy to Key, you say? I'm going to look into that! I know I've seen a thread about it on this forum where someone explains it.

:salute:

[ATAG_Knuckles]

being one handed i have mapped my saitek x53 ang utilize the rudder twist for gun yaw as there is no "axis for turret movement it got to be a hat switch

appreciate sharing that info hub im going to try that tracer

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

Glad it was of interest guys.

i use joy to key in fighters too, just to give me some extra buttons on my controlers. You can have seperate profiles in joy 2 key and select the one you want to use, i just alt tab out of game and switch between my profiles for fighter or gunner as required.

In the game for my gunners key setup i have the turret move left and right assigned to the left and right arrow keys, and in joy 2 key i tell it to emulate these keys when i press the rudder pedals and bingo the turret turns.


I cant remember all the ins and outs of setting joy 2 key up when you first install it, but it must be easy cause i managed it. There are some post on the form about it.

if you have any questions PM me, or if you get it sorted perhaps someone could make a tutorial for the forums.

Regards Hub S!!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

i would like to figuer out how to map my arrow keys to the rudder pedals as that would be the perfect way to move the turret, ill work on that

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3698&highlight=joy2key

Just had a quick look in forum and found this. Post 14 by Lokos.

Its a program that people used to get the smooth zoom before TF introduced it in one of the patches. But you can use it to set an axis to work in game like a button press.

Also look at post 23 by ATAG Naz, an explanation of how it was set up for the smooth zoom, but it will give you the idea how to get rudder pedals to emulate left and right arrows for example.

Hub S!!

[1lokos]

JoytoKey Pedal axis movement to send keys for Blenheim left/right turret movement (up an down dont work in this plane - I think in none).

http://i57.tinypic.com/23ku26u.jpg

Is a bit trick center the turret because of the delay between the command and the turret movement (due the unlock and weight of turret simulation), practice.
It's not pedal related, happen if use the keys (A,D) instead.

Remember that with the turret on left side of plane - even slight - you can't move the MG for right past the fin.

Sokol1

[ATAG_Freya]

Hmmm...I'm a bit confused. (story of my life) So what happens when I'm in the turret, and spin it, but the planes rudder will also move left to right, no? Unless mode 22 or "a" autopilot is engaged, the normal rudder pedal controls will take effect, as I like to use the turret to look around when I'm not in an autopilot mode. Same with FOV zooming, hit left wheel brakes and my FOV will zoom in, LOL. That could be a problem. Is there no way for joy2key to seperate being in the turret from being in the cockpit? I best leave this alone if that is the case. :salute:

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hmmm...I'm a bit confused. (story of my life) So what happens when I'm in the turret, and spin it, but the planes rudder will also move left to right, no? Unless mode 22 or "a" autopilot is engaged, the normal rudder pedal controls will take effect, as I like to use the turret to look around when I'm not in an autopilot mode. Same with FOV zooming, hit left wheel brakes and my FOV will zoom in, LOL. That could be a problem. Is there no way for joy2key to seperate being in the turret from being in the cockpit? I best leave this alone if that is the case. :salute:

Hi

I use a seperate key setting (in game) for being a gunner for practice mission or just being a gunner online, and in this key setting i dont have the rudder pedals mapped to the rudder in game.

But you could assign a button in game say shift left/right arrow to turn turret then in joy to key set a spare button on your throttle to emulate the shift. Then when in the turret keep this button pressed as you press the pedals. i havent tried this but it may work.

Hub S!!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Hmmm...I'm a bit confused. (story of my life) So what happens when I'm in the turret, and spin it, but the planes rudder will also move left to right, no? Unless mode 22 or "a" autopilot is engaged, the normal rudder pedal controls will take effect, as I like to use the turret to look around when I'm not in an autopilot mode. Same with FOV zooming, hit left wheel brakes and my FOV will zoom in, LOL. That could be a problem. Is there no way for joy2key to seperate being in the turret from being in the cockpit? I best leave this alone if that is the case. :salute:

i have a seperate profile set up for gunner which i have deleated any control surface axis, so they dont mix

[1lokos]

Unless mode 22 or "a" autopilot is engaged, the normal rudder pedal controls will take effect,

For what I see here, the "autopilot" ignore your rudder inputs.


as I like to use the turret to look around when I'm not in an autopilot mode.

In this case, since you are not using your hands do handle the MG, turn the turret manually with them and let your feet's rest. :D

"There's is no perfect world".


Sokol1

[1lokos]

"There's is no perfect world".



But shortcuts... :)

On JoyToKey map the pedal movement to send "Q" or whatever, for both movements (left/right).

On Controls > Turret >Axes select the "Turret yaw" press "Q" and move the pedal left or right - latter after test if need check invert box.

So for control the turret yaw is need "Q+Joy1 Z axis (or something like)".

This axis movement dont affect the rudder because for this is expected only "Joy1 Z axis".

:thumbsup:

BTW - If you fly with Br.20 make a exclusive profile for then in CloD Controls and set a joy button or key plus X and Y axis to control turret yaw and pitch (Turret>Axes), much better control than with mouse. The button/key avoid that X, Y axis movements affect plane aileron/elevator.

This - use joystick for turret - dont work well for other turrets, that are "pivot" type. The Br.20 dorsal turret is powered.

Sokol1

[ATAG_Freya]

Well, I gave it a try. The shortcut works, only it moves the MG left and right, but not the turret. There is no mappable axis for spinning the turret itself, and the game won't 'pick up' my "joystick 1 Z axis" when I try to map it to turret movement. So I can't see how this will work, other than using a separate profile as Hub does. But my goal is to keep things mapped in ONE overall profile for everything. Granted, it was late last night I tried. Now that I'm fueling up with coffee, I'll be able to try some more...:) Also I looked at using a modifier to use the zoom in/out function using toe brakes on the peddals, but the way I have things set up (for fighters), I would need a 'joy2joy" program lol. I wish Cliffs'o would allow mapping of multiple bindings! oh well, I'll keep trying!

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi Freya.

You could just use the toe brakes on you pedals via joy to key to turn the turret, and forget about using the zoom.

I tried using a modifier say shift left/right arrow, but Cliffs always recognises the rudder pedal as rudder movement :(

Like i say i have a different key setup just for gunning.

S!! Hub.

[1lokos]

Well, I gave it a try. The shortcut works, only it moves the MG left and right, but not the turret.


There three different operation turret types in CloD, that I call:

Pivot - Me 110, Ju 87, Fiat Br. 20 (nose), just swing MG with mouse - if you use joystick axis you need "fight" with joystick spring the tend to center the aim... awkward.

Powered - Fiat Br.20 - perfect to control will joystick, the turret stop on actual position when you center the joystick - online need a key/button as modifier or the plane turn together turret, .. :D

Pivot/powered - Blenheim/He111 dorsal- MG wings with mouse, turret can be moved left/right with pedal axis send keys with JoytoKey or keys/buttons.

Due this is not possible a "universal" command for all turrets other than mouse and keys. (In the same way that keys for Spit magneto dont work for Bf 109).

This trick with JoyToKey work for Blenheim turret, but not is not suitable for Me 110, Ju 87 etc... and even for Br.20 due lack of vertical control.

EDIT - Did some test...

Unfortunately with the (TF) patch the Br.20 dorsal turret are not more properly controllable with joystick...
The turret now suffer effect of joystick spring and move jerky... move ~140 to left and 140 to right, stop and try return to center - this turret spin 360 degrees.
Even with F10 "off" - no mouse control - with stick axis the turret dont like before.
Probable "collateral effect" when they fix "mouse axis inversion"...
Spin the turret with mouse movement is too slow to be useful.
Strangely the turret dont respond to keys mapped to Move Mount, but move with keys mapped to Move the Gun

In resume, what are best turret on game - if properly controlled (with joystick, not with mouse, that people complained since day 1 - they dont understand that the control of this turret is not designed to use mouse, but the years of "il-2", you know...) - now is worst. :dazed:

In Ju88 mount (dorsal/belly) dont spin, but the mouse move the MG.

Soko1

[1lokos]

How was control Br.20 turret with joystick - record on "vanila" game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekNk3bQeW18&feature=player_detailpage
Notice the mouse cursor, indicating is not being used "F-10 mode".

Seems that now the Br.20 turret use the Blenheim turret "FM"... :doh: :D

Sokol1

[1lokos]

Back to "shortcuts"...

Use JoyToKey to "fix the fix" and make joystick movement send A,W,S,D (mapped to move gun left/right, up/down) dont help, is need move:

........__|
... __|

So, using JoyToKey to make joystick send mouse movements, I am able to restore Br.20 top turret proper control. ;)

Drawback, add complication - use external program - and is need Alt+tab and start JoyToKey (or select JoyTokey turret profile) when assume turret...
And only work for offline, with AI autopilot or Kurssteurung ON, and online only with Kurssteurung ON, since is not possible use a button/key to modify joystick axis behavior, because axis is not set to control turret direct (what result in jerky movement) as before...

"There is no perfect world."

Soko1

[ATAG_Freya]

Thanks Sokol. As for myself I've given up on joy2key for now. I used to use a cheap PS3 type controller for the turret, but didn't get the precision as with a mouse, and I'd usually forget to plug it in before I started playing. I suppose a second joystick would work too for the BR20 turret(?)..but for now this conf.ini mouse setting works for me until our perfect world is found! :)

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.5
SensitivityY=1.5
SensitivityZ=1.5
Invert=1

Only with 'invert mouse' - now the flak guns are backwards (inverted) :grrr: - always something!!

[1lokos]

I suppose a second joystick would work too for the BR20 turret(?)...

Work, but are these limitations that I observe - if you map his axis to control turret axis result awkward, because now the Br.20 top turret use the same "model" of Blenheim turret...

Previous (Vanila > TF 4.0), the Br.20 top turret (and only this) control with joystick was like in these turrets (just imagine using a joystick instead these "gamepad" :D ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ad0dsgy32jc

To get this now is need JoyToKey to emulate mouse axis - what you can do with your PS3 controller (with the above drawbacks).

Sokol1

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Ran across this in my readings...

Not exactly related... but the weapon same as Blenheim turret.

Vickers K Guns used by Special Air Service in the Long Range Desert Force:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Special_Air_Service_in_North_Africa_E_21337.jpg

[Archie]

Also O/T but: Hard as bloody nails that lot!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

I bet there a blast at the local pub !!!!!!!!

[ATAG_Freya]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Special_Air_Service_in_North_Africa_E_21337.jpg

Cigarette, anyone?

[Incog]

Ran across this in my readings...

Not exactly related... but the weapon same as Blenheim turret.

Vickers K Guns used by Special Air Service in the Long Range Desert Force:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Special_Air_Service_in_North_Africa_E_21337.jpg

You have to admit they're classy as hell

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Hi.

Some good info on the Vickers G.O. as well as other Vickers guns.

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

i also understand the load out is not up to me but the pilot knuckles/Denis

Had no idea about this or that if I moved into the position it blocks it to others, I want those 400 deaths back! All along I have had a shit load out for my gunner and always blocked it since I only mapped the cycle through all positions and was told during start up to make sure you raise up your turret.

Wanted to give this a bump!