Lets have some unity for ALL who love to "Fly" planes on a pc !

[Skoshi_Tiger]

In clod the planes fly like they're on rails but you still get clod fanboys saying it's fm is more advanced.

You know if you substitute 'BoS' for 'Clod' in that sentence I would agree with you 100% Hood. I guess we will get a lot more unity when people start realizing that their subjective opinions are not universal facts.

[Dutch]

In clod the planes fly like they're on rails....

Maybe that's because of the simple fact that the trim controls actually function in Cliffs of Dover......

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Maybe that's because of the simple fact that the trim controls actually function in Cliffs of Dover......

Remember Dutch that it is only an Alpha. I guess we are very unfortunately that none (as far as I am aware) RoF planes have trim so I guess we will have to wait until they allocate resources to implement it into the flight models. I guess they have more important things to do at the moment. It's a pity because as far as I am aware by the time of the second world war trim controls (elevator at the very least) were fairly universal in combat aircraft. (Please, anyone, correct me if I am wrong!).

Looking back at combat flight sims of the past I can't remember any that didn't have some form of trim control, so I guess it's just a matter of time before they get around to implementing one?

Cheers everyone and have a very happy and preposterous New Year!

[Arthursmedley]

(Please, anyone, correct me if I am wrong!).

Yes, you are wrong. Planes in RoF have functioning trim controls if they had them fitted historically. It has been stated by the devs that trim for BoS is being worked on.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Yes, you are wrong. Planes in RoF have functioning trim controls if they had them fitted historically. It has been stated by the devs that trim for BoS is being worked on.

Which ones had functioning trim controls?

Now I've owned the game since release but just to make sure I looked into the control section. On my up-to-date version of the game there are no trim control assignments.

There is however a stabilizer setting for aircraft that have adjustable horizontal stabilizers. Hey! I bet that's why the 109 has it's stabilizer adjustment, but the LaGG which uses trim tabs doesn't have trim?

Like I said Hopefully, sooner rather than later, they get around to putting trim into the flight model.

[LuseKofte]

I understand most post here, this tread is obviously meant for smoothing things between Clod and BOS.
And I agree entirely, what I see here is the same thing I see when I try and try and try to drag someone over from SAS site over here(I am admin over there). I might get lucky but suddenly my topic are spammed by people trying to convince them not to fly CLOD.
Frustrating, since they already bought the game, there are nothing to loose by trying ATAG server, I offer people a lot of my own spare time to nurse them in the start. But there are always someone that just do not want other to have fun with other sims. It is destructive for the entire sim community.

I think everyone that is negative towards BOS should think about their motives, because criticism that has surfaced most places is against the early beta, I like the fact that I got to try it, but every one here knows a judgement for the complete game is to soon.

[vranac]

And the comparisons with clod just don't work. In clod the planes fly like they're on rails but you still get clod fanboys saying it's fm is more advanced. Sure the cockpits look nicer and of course it's a finished game so everything is in place.

Watch from 1:30.

LaGG FM is finished and final according to Han, he wasn't talking about 109F because discussion was about LaGG FM but I assume it's also final.
LaGG rolls like FW190 and doesn't behave according to the manual which is very detailed for some critical regimes of flight.

BoS is alfa only in few aspects, effects, DM visuals, maybe sky will have some more tweaking.

[Tycoon]

I am begging,pleading,praying, for someone,anyone to post the official lagg 3 roll rate.
NOT, it's too fast.
NOT, fast as a fw 190.
NOT, arcade.
NOT, stupid BOS.
THE official roll rate.
It DOES seem a bit fast but that argument has no credibility until we know the real roll rate.

[LuseKofte]

I find it funny to talk about historical roll rate in a sim.
WE do not fly in a real world, a sim simulate the real world , it simulate airflow, lift ,torque , sidewind and gravity. You cannot start comparing it with a plane not present in the game yet.

You need to see the difference between the opposing planes, in most sims to date they have been different within the same parameters but not entirely different to fly.
It need to be historical difference between the aircraft in the game with a simulated realistic feel to it. You will not have the same realistic flightsim as you got in DCS . We might get a more realistic combatsim in the line of IL 2 but up to date, to think otherwise are not within the developers goal for this sim.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I am begging,pleading,praying, for someone,anyone to post the official lagg 3 roll rate.
NOT, it's too fast.
NOT, fast as a fw 190.
NOT, arcade.
NOT, stupid BOS.
THE official roll rate.
It DOES seem a bit fast but that argument has no credibility until we know the real roll rate.

The Fw190 roll rate time has already been posted. It is widely known the 190 has one of the best if not the best roll rates of any WWII single prop plane. The Lagg is also widely known to have a very horrible roll rate. So when the Lagg times to roll are faster than a recorded 190's, there is a problem.

So while I cannot answer your specific question, the fact is the Lagg in BoS rolls better than a 190 which is obviously wrong. I can't give you the correct number, if it even exists. But can obviously say that the Lagg should roll slower than a 190 and not faster. That would be the 1st step in correcting the issue.

Edit: And with the caveat as far as correcting the problem, as Jaeger and gavagai says, if the Devs are shooting for realism. If not then it will be like it will be. Just like the ROF FMs that may never get fixed etc. I personally believe those types of errors will hurt the game in the long run. Many people like to fly their planes based on flight manuals etc.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Which ones had functioning trim controls?

Now I've owned the game since release but just to make sure I looked into the control section. On my up-to-date version of the game there are no trim control assignments.

There is however a stabilizer setting for aircraft that have adjustable horizontal stabilizers. Hey! I bet that's why the 109 has it's stabilizer adjustment, but the LaGG which uses trim tabs doesn't have trim?

Like I said Hopefully, sooner rather than later, they get around to putting trim into the flight model.

The additional trim hasn't been around that long. It was over 2 years after release in ROF before planes that had historical trim were actually equipped with it in game. The same can be said for the weapons that all used to have the same ammo and fire at the same speed. Now they are more realistic etc.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

The additional trim hasn't been around that long. It was over 2 years after release in ROF before planes that had historical trim were actually equipped with it in game. The same can be said for the weapons that all used to have the same ammo and fire at the same speed. Now they are more realistic etc.

Thanks for the clarification Bliss! I just hope they get their act together and sort out the trim for the LaGG. I'm sure the code will be transferable to the majority of the aircraft in their plane set and it would be better for all to get it sorted out from the beginning.

And sorry to the OP for running off at a tangent.

[Hood]

You know if you substitute 'BoS' for 'Clod' in that sentence I would agree with you 100% Hood. I guess we will get a lot more unity when people start realizing that their subjective opinions are not universal facts.

We must fly different games then. CloD is light years easier to fly and fight in to the point where it seems too easy. Maybe that is true to life or a reflection of how the control systems are modelled (maybe CloD allows for us using small joysticks where BoS doesn't) I don't know, but to argue that it's better is just silly.

That goes towards the entire point of this thread as does your point about subjectivity. Some people here have zero objectivity and all they see is BoS and immediately whinge whinge whinge, and see CloD and think epiphany. CloD is great but that doesn't mean BoS is bad when, after all, it's at alpha stage. I think some people know its alpha but don't understand or want to understand what that means.

Hood

[nacy]

Cliffs Of Dover is alpha with Team-Fusion as BOS is alpha.

[Old_Canuck]

This "unity" message would get more traction if you were able convert certain devs. and their fanboys first rather than starting at the consumer end. At the consumer end we tend to evaluate and buy - sometimes through experimentation by purchasing sims that don't live up to expectations- and yes CloD falls into that category but it was rescued by a dedicated group of volunteers because it had unused potential.

One example of how this top down unity could work is how Igor Tishin, Oleg Maddox and Ilya Shevchenko agreed long ago not to trample on each others products. I believe their adherence to this agreement over time is what forged their trust in each other to proceed (in unity) on the upcoming WWII sim. So now we see the beginnings of unity among flight sim developers thanks to their example. Will other developers join that scenario or will they continue to carve out market share by attempting to undermine other developers and by encouraging their fanboys to attack competing developer's products? If devs. create a superior product, these tactics of subterfuge would be unnecessary.

[ChiefRedCloud]

That goes towards the entire point of this thread as does your point about subjectivity. Some people here have zero objectivity and all they see is BoS and immediately whinge whinge whinge, and see CloD and think epiphany. CloD is great but that doesn't mean BoS is bad when, after all, it's at alpha stage. I think some people know its alpha but don't understand or want to understand what that means.

Hood

Perhaps it's a case of A bird In the Hand (i.e. CloD) is worth Two Birds (BoS) in the Bush.

Look I see a lot of personal opinions and good information here in this thread and else where. Which is a good thing. However when THE opinion starts to get POINTED then you have to wonder. You mentioned FAN BOYS. I'm transplating this to either mean someone who prefers one thing over another ( a lot) or one who sees problems in the picture (sims) as a "whole". Which is it. And the answer your question (which you have not asked) I do not have the Alpha of BoS. I'm relying on you and others to bring me unslanted information so that when it costs less than $100 (ok $90 what ever) I can perhaps purchase it.

Till then, Happy New Year ....

[Hood]

Which is it. And the answer your question (which you have not asked) I do not have the Alpha of BoS. I'm relying on you and others to bring me unslanted information so that when it costs less than $100 (ok $90 what ever) I can perhaps purchase it.

Till then, Happy New Year ....

Fan boys in my context means those that are blinkered by their adoration of one game or developer. This goes for all games and developers.

If you're relying on others for info I suggest you don't read these threads at all in this forum. You'll just see inane comments about problems in a game that is at alpha stage. Or inane comments based on personal dislike of the developer or 777 1C etc.

Instead I recommend waiting until final release for a better opinion or maybe even further if they release a demo version with a small map and 2 planes as they did in ROF. This is by far the best option as it may be that the final release is pants or that it's great but you don't like the content.

Personally I like it but until I can fly MP or campaign missions I only play it a couple of times each open session. The content isn't enough for me to devote more time to it yet.

And please don't get hung up on the price. Anything niche is more expensive generally and in real terms pc games are cheap compared to 10 years ago.

Hood

[LuseKofte]

oh boy. Kind of easy to see why sim community is dying . It is done by their own hand. There are no market for this stuff we do. And we have no sim to choose from. We cannot pick what we want . There isnt anything out there for us. When it comes we start attack it as it is evil itself.
None of these games are perfect, critisising a game on it Alpha stage for not being finnished ???
Like clod the game is not finnished

[Kwiatek]

And the comparisons with clod just don't work. In clod the planes fly like they're on rails but you still get clod fanboys saying it's fm is more advanced. Sure the cockpits look nicer and of course it's a finished game so everything is in place.

Yea you right in BOS planes definitly dont fly on the rails. I think more like on the springs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SveBPF6AN0#t=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BguS-PzFuz4#t=0


Far from realistic to me. CLOD is much more realistic here. Only thing for now where BOS is better there is ground handling of planes but unfortunately planes in the air fly like hanging on gums or springs.

If 777 dont change these seriusly issue in flight model i think for me game is over before it would be relased

[Hood]

I kinda feel the same about the planes on springs but when I put an extension onto my joystick it was so much better. I'm hoping that some time before final release that they fully enable axes sensitivity adjustment.

Hood

[ATAG_Bliss]

I kinda feel the same about the planes on springs but when I put an extension onto my joystick it was so much better. I'm hoping that some time before final release that they fully enable axes sensitivity adjustment.

Hood

What exactly does that have to do with the problem? Did you watch the vids? Flight sim software (Flight model etc.) limits us to what/how we are able to fly. Immersion from a longer stick etc., has absolutely nothing to do with the problem in the above videos. The flight model is seriously flawed. In it's current state, it feels like a slight step up from War Thunder, let alone the inaccuracies with roll rates, climb speeds, turn rates etc. It's not even close to being realistic or accurate.

I've rode along in many tail draggers including some WWII birds, and DCS and Clod are the closest visual representations of that right now. They say it's 35% complete so I'll wait until they say it's released to do further testing. But it's laughable and boring to play in it's current state to me, especially with the arcade damage model and systems modeling. It just feels many steps down from what I'm used to playing.

[Hood]

Well if the controls aren't dampened down to realistic levels whatever they might be then all sorts of weird things can happen. Extending the stick for me reduced the effective stick movement so made things smoother. It was harder to get the "springs" effect.

If the curves can be dampened even more I'm hoping it'll be even better. I recall Eric Brown reducing the original IL2 curves way down to get something approaching what he used to experience.

Edit: Found a post dealing with this issue and including Eric Brown's joystick profile.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/archive/index.php/t-16887.html

It'll be interesting to see the end result. Although I'll be a dedicated LW pilot at the moment any time I spend is in the LaGG but that isn't really much time at all - too early in the development cycle for me.

Hood

[ChiefRedCloud]

@ Hood .... I read and weed out a lot in the various forums I frequent. And yes I do have to sift things through the "REALITY" filter a bit. But this is how I came to play CloD in the first place. At the price of $60 + tax. I've never been disappointed as after I read through ALL the positive and Negative comments of any forum willing to cover CloD, I then made my decision to purchase it. Honestly I've never regretted it. I do find it kind of humorous when I read of someone forking out something like $15 for CloD and they feel ripped off.

As for the price, well economics play a big part in my fixed income family (my wife, my self and my 18 year old special needs granddaughter which we are raising) and so I have to be very selective what I invest in. At New Wings we are making plans, if all goes well to host a server for BoS. But as much as I would enjoy jinxing through the alpha I will not put out that kind of money yet. So I'll take your advice and wait and read.

I've noticed that some are indeed passionate about their chosen game or sim. I am too but I try to be more tolerant with regards to my beliefs and others. No matter how madding it might be at times. usually I just laugh and shake my head and move on. Then sometimes, I open my mouth and (type). I can no more change another persons thoughts nor would I want to. I might present my case in the hope of changing their minds, but I will do it with respect to those around me and myself. Knowing full well that I might not succeed.

Anyway, thank you for your advice and, your opinion on things. And again, Happy New Years

[Wandalen]

I went for the premium edition of BOS, and i must say its looks good so far.
Dont realy understand peoples complains about a game that only 36% in alpha stage. How many % was CLOD when it was realised?? Well i thanks the Team Confusion for their good job at CLOD , my game vould ended up in my trash bin if it wasent for them! . Argee with the thread starter, why bother argue over another flight sim.
I love CLOD, BOS, ROF, DCS and i still having a good time flying IL2 46

Salute !
Wandalen

[Foul Ole Ron]

Part of the problem seems to be that the modelling that would restrict the levels of deflection you could actually get is absent currently. If you add an extra extension to your stick and fly smooth the problem won't appear as readily but there's clearly an issue that needs correction. The other problem seems to be that when the excessive deflections are pulled the aircraft isn't reacting the way you'd expect and all sorts of funny looking flight maneuvers can be pulled which don't look like they should be possible. It's still an alpha so we'll see what happens but they're talking about the flight models basically being done which doesn't bode too well to me. Hopefully it gets sorted out.

[ChiefRedCloud]

I went for the premium edition of BOS, and i must say its looks good so far.
Dont realy understand peoples complaints about a game that only 36% in alpha stage. How many % was CLOD when it was realised?? Well i thanks the Team Confusion for their good job at CLOD , my game would have ended up in my trash bin if it wasent for them! . Argee with the thread starter, why bother argue over another flight sim.
I love CLOD, BOS, ROF, DCS and i still having a good time flying IL2 46

Salute !
Wandalen

I agree in that I don't understand some folks complaints. But don't mistake an opinion for a complaint. I realize you know the difference, still. And I think some of the opinions come from bad tastes left from either 1C or 777 or both in some of their short comings. These are things we each have to overcome or deal with individually. Perhaps my novice mind can deal with things better in that I don't understand much of the technical side of these issues. But as in the videos above, I can see that those in development still have a ways to go. And I'm just as sure they know about it and are working on it.

Time will tell it all and we will then see what comes of all of this.

Happy New years from myself, my family and all of us at New Wings ....

[Wandalen]

Well i thanks the Team Confusion for their good job at CLOD

Sorry too mutch vine Team Fusion LOL

[ATAG_Jeepy]

Haha. Cheers Wiggo 'n Merry Christmas m8 !

[chris455]

Watch from 1:30.

LaGG FM is finished and final according to Han, he wasn't talking about 109F because discussion was about LaGG FM but I assume it's also final.
LaGG rolls like FW190 and doesn't behave according to the manual which is very detailed for some critical regimes of flight.

BoS is alfa only in few aspects, effects, DM visuals, maybe sky will have some more tweaking.

I found this video to be very disconcerting.
I've been to a few airshows in my time but I don't think I've ever seen a real aircraft do things like this.
I know the 109 was good, but.........jeesh.
I will almost certainly purchase BOS when it is released, but things like this make me even more grateful for what has been done with COD.

[gavagai]

The Fw190 roll rate time has already been posted. It is widely known the 190 has one of the best if not the best roll rates of any WWII single prop plane. The Lagg is also widely known to have a very horrible roll rate. So when the Lagg times to roll are faster than a recorded 190's, there is a problem.

So while I cannot answer your specific question, the fact is the Lagg in BoS rolls better than a 190 which is obviously wrong. I can't give you the correct number, if it even exists. But can obviously say that the Lagg should roll slower than a 190 and not faster. That would be the 1st step in correcting the issue.

Edit: And with the caveat as far as correcting the problem, as Jaeger and gavagai says, if the Devs are shooting for realism. If not then it will be like it will be. Just like the ROF FMs that may never get fixed etc. I personally believe those types of errors will hurt the game in the long run. Many people like to fly their planes based on flight manuals etc.

Ta-da! It's Rise of Flight all over again.

Who is going to be the sucker who digs all over for documented LagG-3 roll rates, finds them, shows them to be wildly out of step with BoS, and then is told to piss off? It's not going to be me this time.

I'm all for unity among flight sim fans, but we also need to do ourselves a favor and show a little backbone now and then. Flight sims aren't going anywhere. Insist on quality.