Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

[Broodwich]

?
The point was why rarer planes are unlimited.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

?
The point was why rarer planes are unlimited.

It's up to mission builders to restrict the number of aircraft.

This is not Team Fusion's responsibility.

As has been mentioned many times... Team Fusion is not the same as ATAG. We do not run their server or any other server which hosts CoD.

[No.64_Johnny]

Well all I think is the E4N should not be in the sim anyway. It has a rediculous climb rate. I know the 109 did outclimb the spitfire at certain altitudes but surely it cant climb like that in reality?? What we should do is add a Spitfire Vb and a 109 F2 and then it would even things up

[GERMANWOLF]

all spits are easy for me to overthrow

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

Well all I think is the E4N should not be in the sim anyway. It has a rediculous climb rate. I know the 109 did outclimb the spitfire at certain altitudes but surely it cant climb like that in reality?? What we should do is add a Spitfire Vb and a 109 F2 and then it would even things up

At the end of the day it's a video game Johnny and there are many things we see in the game that didn't and in fact couldn't happen in reality. Not without consequences that is. Lately I have seen Spits cartwheeling through the sky after stalling it, only to recover and fly merrily away and all we can do is laugh as he does it again and then again. I promise you that in reality something would have been broken. This occurs on both sides in several scenerios because, it's only a video game! To much "reality" is missing but they (Designers/TF guys) strive to make as good as they can with what is available and it's a good bit of fun for us.

[Mruk]

Are there any charts showing speed vs. altitude and climb rate vs. altitude for E4N and SpitIIA available? (after patch 4.3.1)

[gavagai]

Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits

In the TF splash screens Spitfires are victorious, while Hurricanes go down in flames.

[Mruk]

Anyone knows max speed at sea level E4N vs. IIa?

[No.401_Speed (YO-R)]

post deleted

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

Not the case... the Spitfires are more than competitive if flown correctly.

A Spitfire will outturn a 109 in all instances where both aircraft start at similar altitudes and energy. And the Spit will still retain a significant edge even if the 109 has an energy advantage. Only if the Spitfire is damaged or has completely blown its energy and the pilot has pulled it into too slow speed a turn will the 109 be able to match the turn rate.

The Spit IA 100 octane at altitudes under 10,000 ft will out accelerate the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's at low speeds and stay with them in a climb. It is as fast as all these types at sea level.

If you are having problems with a 109 booming and zooming you, then don't stay around, better to make sure you have enough altitude that you can meet him on even terms... or if he is higher, dive away.

[ATAG_Colander]

As a 109 pilot I can tell you that the only way I will engage a spit is if I have a lot of E advantage. Any other case, the 109 is doomed.

In other words, yes, the 109 tactic is and should be BnZ but no, it takes more than a few hours playing to master it and not fall into errors like trying to turn with a spit.
My guess is that there are not many 109 pilots that "have only a few hours" left in the servers

[9./JG52_Meyer]

All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

I beleive there are a lot of lakes in Canada

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

[Robo.]

All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

It takes lots of skill, discipline and experience to master the 109.

Average 109 pilot you describe can and will be outflown by excellent RAF pilot in a Spitfire or even Hurricane. There are, luckily, plenty of great pilots on both sides.

[gavagai]

Energy fighting is not what an average pilot does. By definition it marks a virtual pilot as experienced. What might give the appearance of it being "average" is that it does not require better reflexes or complicated maneuvering for success, but that overlooks the challenge of how much more difficult energy fighting is conceptually. In a Spitfire, your average pilot points his lift vector at his enemy and turns, and he'll have some successes. In a 109 he'll be shot down repeatedly until he gives up on those intuitive maneuvers and gives primary importance to relative energy states (kinetic + potential).

It's one thing to say you'll walk away because you have good evidence that some FMs are inaccurate. It's another to say you'll walk away because if they are accurate you don't like the result. Asymmetrical aircraft matchups are the norm in air combat history, right?

[vranac]

I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

You are very wrong with this Phil. Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. Even if I tried it two times after the new patch.
I can turn with you ( horizontally) and then I'll just go away up or extend without any problem. You can stall it and run away after that.

109E4 is more than enough to fight SpitIIa if you are familiar with it. I'm fighting them on AX all the time and I'm not talking about newcomers. You can leave the fight any time you want.
Even if bounced with another enemy with more E there are tricks to make him bleed some E and than you can extend. And then you can attack again when you make enough distance.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

Not the case... the Spitfires are more than competitive if flown correctly.

A Spitfire will outturn a 109 in all instances where both aircraft start at similar altitudes and energy. And the Spit will still retain a significant edge even if the 109 has an energy advantage. Only if the Spitfire is damaged or has completely blown its energy and the pilot has pulled it into too slow speed a turn will the 109 be able to match the turn rate.

The Spit IA 100 octane at altitudes under 10,000 ft will out accelerate the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's at low speeds and stay with them in a climb. It is as fast as all these types at sea level.

If you are having problems with a 109 booming and zooming you, then don't stay around, better to make sure you have enough altitude that you can meet him on even terms... or if he is higher, dive away.

+1 in total agreement. I've been flying a Spit in the ATAG campaign this time and can atest to Buzz's comments. Properly flown the Spitfire is a mighty ride.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. e.

yes, a good idea!
I'm always happy to do some experiments in a controlled environment.

[ATAG_Endless]

This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

I agree with phil I too have heard 109 pilots say they are struggling with the 109 and in saying that I have had to change my flying style and be extremely diligent in the way I fly

But to say the 109 is overpowered I disagree hell the other night I chased down and shot two E 4N's in a spit 1a if the 109 has a energy advantage of course it's going to extend away and get separation every time

[Gromit]

Well I have caught and knocked down E4N's in a Hurricane, but all that tells me is the guy didn't know how to get the best out of it!

[ATAG_Endless]

Yea but the point was is if the 109 was overpowered there would have been no way for me to have climbed with it and get a solution

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I regularly fly the Hurricane Rotol 100 octane, a plane with is much slower and poorer climbing than either the Spit IA 100 octane or Spit IIA, and I regularly shoot down E-4Ns, but that only happens when three situations and all require me to have more energy or potential energy:

1) I place myself tactically at a +1000 meter altitude advantage over the E-4N so I have the energy/alt advantage, and the E-4N pilot has less than 1000 meters under him so he can't dive away and outrun me even if he sees me coming.

2) E-4N pilot isn't paying attention and I surprise him in a dive from higher altitude. (my dive temporarily allows me to sustain higher than his level flight speed)

3) E-4N is on the deck maneuvering at low speed and I enter with an energy/alt advantage of +500 meters. (this is most common way E-4N's die)

In pretty much any other situation an E-4N pilot who sees me is in absolutely no danger, he can simply fly away, dive away, or outclimb me.

Players need to remember that ANY given fighter aircraft in the game accelerates in a dive much faster than any other given fighter aircraft accelerates in level flight.

I often wander over to the French coast in a Hurricane at 23,000 ft.... (as Gromit said in another thread... just under contrail height makes you less visible, but at the same time anyone over you will immediately be visible by their contrails)

If I can't find a single German heading out from a Blue field towards England in a low speed climb who I can bounce, or if there are two many 109's climbing up below me... I just put my nose down gently... and dive away towards the English coast... My aircraft's dive speed will take me out of danger.

-Place yourself in a tactically advantageous position
-Keep a sharp lookout around you... don't allow yourself to fly underneath enemy aircraft
-Make your attack quickly... get out.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I'll add another couple points:

-Get on Comms...

I don't know how many times I've seen a Spitfire or Hurricane blithly motoring along without a care in the world, as a 109 knifes down from above them... and calls on comms for "Spitfire off the coast of Dover, Break!" go completely unheeded and another insta-pilot kill happens.

Get on comms... ATAG Teamspeak has a great bunch of guys who will help you out and save your sorry noob a$$ many times.

-Fly with a wingman...

Get on ATAG. There are plenty of guys who will fly wing with you... I am happy to fly wing with anyone... even with Noobs... I love to maneuver my pair such that the new guy I am flying with gets his first bounce and kill... no greater satisfaction than hearing him bubble over with enthusiasm and excitement.

[Broodwich]

This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

Both sides will complain even when one has the clear advantage. Some think they are the best and its never their fault. Such it has been, such it shall be forever *points to sig*

I wouldn't read too much into it

[9./JG52 Reinhart]

Eh... E4/N isn't my cup of tea. I'd rather take something fair that I'm always familiar with than a more advanced version. Plus people get too used to the luxury of it having a really good climb rate.

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

-Place yourself in a tactically advantageous position
-Keep a sharp lookout around you... don't allow yourself to fly underneath enemy aircraft
-Make your attack quickly... get out.

This is an excellent check-list for engagement.
I'd hazard a guess that at least half the playing community does not heed this but follows this instead;

1. spawn near the front lines
2. fly direct to the most likely combat area
3. vector straight at the first dot they see

[Vlerkies]

You are very wrong with this Phil. Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. Even if I tried it two times after the new patch.
I can turn with you ( horizontally) and then I'll just go away up or extend without any problem. You can stall it and run away after that.
.

yes, a good idea!
I'm always happy to do some experiments in a controlled environment.

Has this little duel demo at dawn taken place yet?

I would love to see a 109 endlessly sustain horizontal turns with a Spit or a Hurri without falling out of the sky.

And when you do demonstrate it, please enlighten us on how you managed to do it, that would be appreciated.

[vranac]

Has this little duel demo at dawn taken place yet?

I would love to see a 109 endlessly sustain horizontal turns with a Spit or a Hurri without falling out of the sky.

And when you do demonstrate it, please enlighten us on how you managed to do it, that would be appreciated.

Not yet,but we will for sure.

Read carefully, I never said you can out turn Spit. What I said is you can make 2-3 turns loosing all your E and then just leave.
Ask Osprey, we tried it, he was on SpitIIa me on 109E4N.

[Vlerkies]

Oh I get it now, sry misread.

So you and Phil are essentially saying the same thing then? That the E4N is faster/more powerful, but just to differing degrees really?

[dziki]

We all tend to forget that the ATAG missions have very little to do with the historical BoB - it's just a nice big scale DF server where everyone can have some fun. We do have some bombers sometimes, we do have some odd 110 or a Hurricane here and there, but majority of players will be in E-4s and Spitfires in a furball on the deck, with very few planes yo be seen above 3.5 km. You can not force people to fly the plane XY so why pretend this has anything to do with the history? With the server being half full, you will see good 50% of Luftwaffe fighters sporting the E-4/N and 90% of the RAF flying the Spit. So why bother and why not allow every plane on the map with no limits at all.

My opinion is opposite.
IMO treating ATAG server as simply DF server is not correct.
I think most of us, want to have most historical feelings, in playing CloD, as could be.
This also applies to plane-set in missions.

As was mentioned before , in BoB, Bf 109 E4/N was used only in ~5% (40/700) of all 109's.
At ATAG server Bf 109 E4/N is present in ~75% of maps (I counted only 2 maps without 109 E4/N).
As for me, Bf 109 E4/N and Spit IIa should be available only in maps from November 1940 (Raiders map).

dziki