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Thread: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

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    Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Why Blues have 109E4N's here fighting against Spit Ia 100 oct when 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa on any altitude ?

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Ziegler's Avatar
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Quote Originally Posted by vranac View Post
    Why Blues have 109E4N's here fighting against Spit Ia 100 oct when 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa on any altitude ?
    Paleeeeease Vranic! We (9./JG52) flew Spits on Sunday to practice for the upcoming campaign and were stunned at the ease in which we got kills on against 109's! It was a joke at how easy it was to outmanuver them and this was a squad of dedicated 109 pilots, several of whom were flying them for the first time. I must say it was very "enlightening" experiance as we lit up several 109's a piece. The only thing the 109's could do was to dive away and run a little faster. In this patch, I never knew how easy you guys had it till now! Those spits are Mighty!
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Ziegler; May-06-2014 at 09:00.
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Will you be able to show me that 1 vs 1 map, short distance, no running away from a fight, you can take Spit IIa ?
    We can post video later.

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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Vranac.
    I hope very much to see this video.
    I also think they run the fights.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Ziegler's Avatar
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Quote Originally Posted by vranac View Post
    Will you be able to show me that 1 vs 1 map, short distance, no running away from a fight, you can take Spit IIa ?
    We can post video later.
    Oh we all know what a virtual Ace (and all round tough guy) you are. See you in the chat trying to taunt people to little avail. Handbags at dawn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karkara View Post
    Vranac.
    I hope very much to see this video.
    I also think they run the fights.
    Of course they run if they have any sense about staying alive. You don't seem to understand the difference between an energy fighter and turn fighter. Energy fighter is not designed for dogfighting and any prolonged dogfighting with it is at best a 50/50 proposition which for me is not good enough odds.
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Ziegler; May-06-2014 at 13:33.
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Ziegler View Post
    We (9./JG52) flew Spits on Sunday to practice for the upcoming campaign and were stunned at the ease in which we got kills on against 109's! It was a joke at how easy it was to outmanuver them and this was a squad of dedicated 109 pilots, several of whom were flying them for the first time.
    Those guys who flew 109s only previously would've flown the Spit in the same way I'm betting. Fly any plane on ATAG like you should fly a 109 and you'll be successful as there's often low flying enemy around. Give yourself an initial energy advantage in a Spit and you'll out energy or angle fight almost any one of those low flying 109s fairly easily.

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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    You just made some statements which I find not true at all. I suggested a very easy way for you to prove them.
    If it's so easy for you why don't you show that to me and the others.

    So in a 109 I will have no altitude advantage in the first merge and I will not extend and runaway.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Ziegler's Avatar
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul Ole Ron View Post
    Those guys who flew 109s only previously would've flown the Spit in the same way I'm betting. Fly any plane on ATAG like you should fly a 109 and you'll be successful as there's often low flying enemy around. Give yourself an initial energy advantage in a Spit and you'll out energy or angle fight almost any one of those low flying 109s fairly easily.
    That's absolutely correct Ron and exactly what we did (use it as an energy fighter) and if you got in trouble, just start turning.
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Ziegler; May-06-2014 at 14:59.
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    Quote Originally Posted by vranac View Post
    You just made some statements which I find not true at all. I suggested a very easy way for you to prove them.
    If it's so easy for you why don't you show that to me and the others.

    So in a 109 I will have no altitude advantage in the first merge and I will not extend and runaway.
    vranic.gif Sorry that you don't find the statements true but I don't find that your 1 on 1 proves anything except that you think you're your a better pilot. In my case I'm sure your right. Doesn't prove anything but that Ace. You whining about an E4n in the map versus the Spit Ia 100 oct is unbecoming a pilot of your obvious stature. It's only a semi historical map after all the emphasis on "semi".

    What I said was that my squad practiced in spitfires (the first time for many of us) and found them very easy to fly and score in. I stand by my statement and you'll have your chance in the upcoming campaign (just like all the others we've flown) to test us since we are currently flying Red due to lower signup numbers at the moment on that side.
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    Re: Hellfire Corner

    No Ziegler, if I wanted to prove that we would be flying the same aeroplane. I just wanted to show you that 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa even in a dogfight without any advantage that 109 pilots usually use.

    And I can agree with you that Spitfire is easier to fly but when you are fighting a pilot with similar skill and E chances are something 20:80 for a Spit pilot.
    In a 109E4N you can make many mistakes and just leave a fight.

    And that pic is funny but I fly all aeroplanes and I miss the old Dunkirk map made by Bliss with g50's on it.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    I'd love to know the reason it's been removed or not added to any of the maps in rotation except for one. It seems strange to me that the maps have all the blue planes included including several variations of each plane and yet the reds get the short end of the stick. And please I don't want a blue only flyer trying to convince me the a1 is sooo much better than what they get to choose from. Seems pretty one sided and I don't want to make accusations but the reasons I've heard sound like blue fliers and map makers excuses for a slight advantage.


    Again I'm not saying this is the case but after retuning to play on atag after maybe almost a year or so of not playing it seems like the blues got a bunch of new planes E4b as an example but my favorite and best red (imo) plane is suddenly taken away from all missions save one. It's seems weird to me and I haven't heard any real good reason why this is the case. (it's only semi historical missions, doesn't really cut it for me as a valid reason).

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Well, in this game the 109 flown by a dedicated skilled pilot and some wing buddies . Lets say 9/JG52 they actually can decide how and where to fight. If they spot the enemy. You need a working Radar and pilots to understand what that radar tells you for getting a historical result. Because the hun in the sun was very often a Spit in the sun and a very surprised hun.
    If this was the case you could beat these fine flyers. I find it as a bomber pilot very satisfying surviving against the odds more than win by the odds

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliber View Post
    I'd love to know the reason it's been removed or not added to any of the maps in rotation except for one.
    The missions have not been updated, that's all. No conspiracy theories involved.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Ziegler's Avatar
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    The missions in the rotation are currently very competitive with both sides winning the maps and many times, maps ending in draws. That speaks for itself. The "Band of Blennie" boys and their escorts are formidible adversaries and have turned the tide on many a map of late.
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Ziegler; May-06-2014 at 17:33.
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Kaliber, a few years ago till 1.05 official patch actually there was a really strong Spit IIa in the sim. It was fast and climbing very well.
    But even then 109 had some advantages that you could use, better roll and ability to hang on a prop much longer.

    That myth about "superior" Spit IIa just continued even if there is no any reason for that now.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    The missions have not been updated, that's all. No conspiracy theories involved.

    Which is why I tried to word it diplomatically. I'm not wearing a tin foil hat but you must admit from an new/returning players perspective it seems odd that blue has more choices to choose from whereas red had one taken away or not added whatever the case may be, not to mention it's the best red high alt performer. It looks a little weird without any real explanation so thank you. Any Idea when they may be updated?

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    I never fly the E-4N versions on any map and I do not even know if and where they are available. But as far as I read from Gruber's reply in the Hellfire Corner thread there are no E-4N but only E-4N "derated" available. And this only on one single, destructable blue airfield - and even with a limited amount of 8 planes simultaneously.

    Come on, so much talk and even conspiracy theories about the derated-version that to my understanding is a slightly better performing E-4?

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    I think any fighter who has an energy advantage / better positioning has the advantage.

    The 109 still has better dive / energy characteristics, correct?

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    i love the old 109 vs spit debate. there will always be a lot of interesting info in these threads.
    but as been stated before it really comes down to the pilot in most cases. ive been attacked by high altitude 109´s with and without patience. the latter usually end´s up in the channel.
    but when you come up against a 109 pilot with not only skill but also patience you have to bring your "A game".
    loose sight of him, and you are most likely dead.
    you will also have to be patience since to many mistake on your end will result in you bailing out in best cases.
    you have to realize you are on the defense in that situation. you will not be able to go on the offensive until he makes a mistake or reinforcement arrives. both planes have there advantages and disadvantages.
    these are a few of them.

    spitfire:

    better turn rate
    better view
    easy to handle

    BF 109:

    better climb rate
    higher dive speed
    better roll rate
    better fire power
    faster

    when ever you use your plane in a way that lets your enemy gain the advantage you put your self at risk.
    trying to outmaneuver a spit in a low level dogfight is one of those risks.
    trying to go into a steep climb after a 109 is another one of those risks.
    so which is the better plane? well on paper i would say the 109. in reality/sim? most likely the one with the most skilled and patient pilot.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Firstly, the Spit1a 100 oct is my first choice even if the 11a was more widely available. However, I do think it's a shame that the work and effort TF put into getting the FM optimised (for all the ac currently flyable in CloD) should end up with some being largely relegated to SP.

    I have no objection to giving players a wider choice in more missions and, as already pointed out, are only 'semi historical' and very rarely played as true historical .

    Anything that can be done to encourage more players to try high alt escort/combat is a positive step and to see just how well TF's FM efforts translate in MP against player opponents not SP AI.
    Last edited by ATAG_EvangelusE; May-06-2014 at 20:03.
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Here are the facts:

    The Bf109E-4N, (actually very first versions were E-3 with the N engine, which is not modeled in the game) appeared approx. 1.5 - 2 months ahead of the Spitfire IIA.

    So it should be available in early BoB scenarios when the Spit IIA wasn't.

    However, from the limited amount of information available, I personally would believe it is quite likely the version which appeared first was 'De-Rated', ie. only 1.35ata was allowed. The full WEP power version wasn't likely available till sometime in mid-September or October. At all times throughout the period July-October, AFAIK there was only one Gruppe, (III/JG26) using the aircraft. That would mean a maximum of 40 Bf-109E-4N aircraft in the sky at any one time, out of the approx. 700 Bf-109's flying.

    To be historical, it would probably be best to have the De-Rated version available from July-September, the full power version after that.

    Regarding the Spitfire IIA. It didn't appear till the last week of August, and only one Squadron, (12 pilots up at any one time,) was active.

    In mid-September additional Spit IIA Squadrons began to arrive, till by the end of October there were 7 Squadrons active. This out of some 60 RAF Fighter Squadrons available.

    So whether we are talking the E-4N or the Spit IIA, it is very clear these planes were a definite minority of the aircraft available on either side.

    Most of the combat was between the E-1/E-3/E-4 and the Hurricane I (Rotol 100 octane) which was about 55-60% of the British total and the Spitfire IA (100 octane) 40-45% (depending on the date). The Bf110 was also a significant proportion of the German fighter force... being some approx. 200-250 aircraft out of the 1000 total German fighters available.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-06-2014 at 23:35.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Buzzsaw pretty much nailed it.

    In addition, I don't quite see the thing between the Mark I and Mark II. In a BoB configuration, there was practically nothing to choose from between them in performance, if anything, the Mk I was better when running 100 octane, since the emergency boost was usable only for a very limited altitude on the Mark II. The only advantage of the latter is very very marginally better performance at altitude.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Ziegler's Avatar
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    I never fly the E-4N versions on any map and I do not even know if and where they are available. But as far as I read from Gruber's reply in the Hellfire Corner thread there are no E-4N but only E-4N "derated" available. And this only on one single, destructable blue airfield - and even with a limited amount of 8 planes simultaneously.

    Come on, so much talk and even conspiracy theories about the derated-version that to my understanding is a slightly better performing E-4?
    +1 Dui, I never use E4N either. 3's and 4's pretty much exclusively. N's always seemed to be more "tender" in the engine dept and had more overheat/overrev problems for my taste. Just never felt reliable enough?
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Ziegler View Post
    The missions in the rotation are currently very competitive with both sides winning the maps and many times, maps ending in draws. That speaks for itself. The "Band of Blennie" boys and their escorts are formidible adversaries and have turned the tide on many a map of late.
    The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    @Chuck_Owl: Even your propaganda channel is forbidden to us blue, there might be some who dared to listen to and watch some of your movies. Just for intelligence reasons to get an idea where you hit next time, of course...

    And even without your movies I would never forget the first time when some squadron mates and me ran into one of your missions: some weeks ago you and some fighter escort were flying mid-Channel, at the deck to Calais. Was the first time that I saw so many red bombers flying together.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck_Owl View Post
    The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment.


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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck_Owl View Post
    The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment.
    Like Dui said, we were not used to coordinated raids from the red side. I think it's great stuff and good to see it happening in server one. You guys fly to try and do your part to win the map and that is the tact that our squad takes in deciding our missions. It's great practice for the campaigns.
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Here are the facts:
    Most of the combat was between the E-1/E-3/E-4 and the Hurricane I (Rotol 100 octane) which was about 55-60% of the British total and the Spitfire IA (100 octane) 40-45% (depending on the date).
    Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits
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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by Broodwich View Post
    Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits
    And Blue pilots tend to forget the part about their not having radar.
    Last edited by AKA_Knutsac; May-10-2014 at 23:29.

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    Re: Bf109E4N vs Spitfire IIa

    Quote Originally Posted by Broodwich View Post
    Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits
    We all tend to forget that the ATAG missions have very little to do with the historical BoB - it's just a nice big scale DF server where everyone can have some fun. We do have some bombers sometimes, we do have some odd 110 or a Hurricane here and there, but majority of players will be in E-4s and Spitfires in a furball on the deck, with very few planes yo be seen above 3.5 km. You can not force people to fly the plane XY so why pretend this has anything to do with the history? With the server being half full, you will see good 50% of Luftwaffe fighters sporting the E-4/N and 90% of the RAF flying the Spit. So why bother and why not allow every plane on the map with no limits at all.

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