Doubt about Breda-SAFAT rate of fire and bullets speed

[Brennus54]

HI atag team and others !

I pilot very often the G50 on Atag when it's available and i have to say the 12.7mm bullets speed is very slow, i think it's not historically correct.
I find this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda-SAFAT_machine_gun
you can read: <<765 metres per second (2,510 ft/s) (12.7 mm)>>.
Could you verify this velocity is correct in CoD ?

Actually it seems that Those guns fire at an average 525 bullets per minutes in the game, wikipedia breda-safat page say: 575 rounds/min (if synchronized) (helix synchronisation i think)
Could you verify this thing too ?

I precise that i don't know if wiki is right or wrong but i have a doubt about the actual performance of these machinguns

In any case, thx a lot for your time and your work, you are doing a very good job !


PS: My G50 is invicible AHAHAH ! INVINCIBLE !

[trademe900]

Invincible? Wait until you see me or one of my boys in the g50... death seems our servant.

Lol jokes aside! Salute to you brennus mate. I love going into battle with another g50. What a fun airframe!! This machine is a potent death dealer.

Interesting post mate, thanks for bringing this up. I am reading about the safat specs now. The ballistics are a big change to adjust to indeed, but boy do they rip through airframes with authority!

[VO101_Tom]

HI atag team and others !

I pilot very often the G50 on Atag when it's available and i have to say the 12.7mm bullets speed is very slow, i think it's not historically correct.
I find this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda-SAFAT_machine_gun
you can read: <<765 metres per second (2,510 ft/s) (12.7 mm)>>.
Could you verify this velocity is correct in CoD ?

Actually it seems that Those guns fire at an average 525 bullets per minutes in the game, wikipedia breda-safat page say: 575 rounds/min (if synchronized) (helix synchronisation i think)
Could you verify this thing too ?

I precise that i don't know if wiki is right or wrong but i have a doubt about the actual performance of these machinguns

In any case, thx a lot for your time and your work, you are doing a very good job !


PS: My G50 is invicible AHAHAH ! INVINCIBLE !

Hi.
The 12,7 mm Breda-SAFAT ingame values is: Rate Of Fire: 699 to 701 per minute, Muzzle Velocity is 760 m/s

[Brennus54]

I think you are wrong (or the game values are very very strange):
300 bullets/machine gun fired in 34 seconds, so the rate of fire is under 600 rounds per minutes, around 530 i think.
if the rate of fire is really 700 bullets per minutes, we could fired all the cartbridge quicker, around 25 seconds i think. No ?
700 bullets per minutes is the machine gun rate of fire without helix synchronization, does that means CoD include a real synchronization system ? which really work in the game ? each bullet waiting for the signal to shoot between the helix wings ? Or maybe not, because engine off or on give me the same breda-safat rate of fire --> 300bullets/34sec ! oh god help me, what is the truth !?!?

Can i ask you where you find this bullet speed of 760m/s ?

I really really doubt.


ps: yeah, invincible, really really invincible ^^, not the pilot, just the plane.
ps number 2 ^^: sorry my english, i am from France.

[trademe900]

Yes, it seems the rate of fire is slightly off indeed. Those are what the figures should be, i figure. I will submit the issue to the TF bug tracker tool when I get the chance to use a computer (can only use phone for now) , or someone else perhaps has a moment to submit this issue? Well done for pointing it out brennus.

On another note, guys... jump into a g50 and give this airframe a try! It is viscous and tricky to handle when pushing the limit but such a laugh out turning hurricanes and spits and the .50 cals punch through planes with authority. I have dealt out a lot of death with this airframe. What a potent machine. Heaps of fun!

[VO101_Tom]

I think you are wrong (or the game values are very very strange):

Hi.
Very likely the game calculate the synchronizations, because I copied this values from weapons.ini (I measured the ingame rate of fire, true, that is 530).
The fuselage mounted, synchronised Breda SAFAT rate of fire should be 31-32 sec / 300 rounds (575 / minute), the current 35 seconds is not too bad IMO...

[Uwe]

Close enough.

[Brennus54]

Ok, if we all agree about these unrealistic rate of fire of 530, I let you, atag members and support members, note this issue in the bug tracker program (I think I dont have access to It and I dont know How It works). So the 575 bullets per minute seems to be the real rate of fire !
Thx for your attention !

[trademe900]

Ok, if we are all agree about these unrealistic rate of fire of 530, I let you, atag members and support members, note this issue in the bug tracker program (I think I dont have access to It and I dont know How It works). So the 575 bullets per minute seems to be the real rate of fire !
Thx for your attention !

Its' easy. Just register on the site and then submit your issue. I would do it but I don't have a desktop pc- travelling around with phone.

[LuseKofte]

I think this sim are very realistic in all aspect, but to me this plane are far too effective in game than it ever was in real life. I am not saying it got the wrong FM or rate of fire, it just was not a very efficient plane during the war

[Brennus54]

it doesn't work, i'm at this website:http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/login
There is no option for registering.. any volontary ? ^^

[trademe900]

I think this sim are very realistic in all aspect, but to me this plane are far too effective in game than it ever was in real life. I am not saying it got the wrong FM or rate of fire, it just was not a very efficient plane during the war

Woah, Jaeger mate, you're really going down this road lol?

Fact of the matter is no matter how realistic it gets, the virtual aerial combat arena is another world and we could call attention to endless other examples of this kind; a single Ju88 riding the waves with 2.4 tonnes ordnance destroying half a fleet of boats or using Lotfe to hit one at 5000m. Flying through hangars and attacking planes inside? Yes, physically possible... but we are all having fun with these planes in another dimension without the many factors that can not be simulated.

You know this all too well dude! Who's that legendary high altitude anti-shipping Lotfe expert around here eh?

[trademe900]

it doesn't work, i'm at this website:http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/login
There is no option for registering.. any volontary ? ^^

Top right hand corner buddy, really tiny writing. I didn't see it either the first time I tried to register a while back.

[Brennus54]

Thx for your help trademe !
I just create a new ask for the breda-safat rate of fire.

Now, i would like to create some other asks about magnetos and fuel pump for the G50, but i don't know if it's a good idea, what do you think ? i don't want to give an extra workload to TF developers..

[trademe900]

Nice thought Brennus but dude go for it. The whole concept of that bug tracker tool is to compile a record of these things and prioritize them accordingly. It all goes towards creating the most accurate simulation possible and these guys from TF have a mind-blowing attention to detail. You should read some of the read-me files in detail... wow.

[Brennus54]

ok, thx for your opinion trademe, then i will post other features at the bug tracker site soon.

About bullets speed, i just make a little test, which is primitive but i'm quite sure there is a problem.
breda safat 12.7mm historical velocity is 765m/s (breda safat 12.7mm)
cal.303 browning historical velocity is 760-850m/s (it depends what kind of bullets you load (in fact the bullet weight))

To be quite sure about this issue i fire above the sea, low altitude, seing tracers:
Obviously, browning bullet impacts are quite instantaneous (less than 1 second), whereas Breda-safat bullets impacts take between 2 or 3 seconds ! it's a very long time, whereas historical data are quite the same!

What do you think about this observation?
Could anyone make a test with an another method?

[trademe900]

Well it might be a rough test method, but more than a 1 second difference is massive!! Seems like something is not right. Unfortunately I can not test this right now. Post it on the bug tracker man.

[Artist]

Hi Brennus,

I just create a new ask for the breda-safat rate of fire.

Thank you! I've changed it to Bug and asked for further info (see in bugtracker)

Now, i would like to create some other asks about magnetos and fuel pump for the G50, but i don't know if it's a good idea, what do you think ? i don't want to give an extra workload to TF developers..

Go ahead! As trademe said, that's what the bugtracker is for: collecting everything we can get.

Cheers,
Artist

August 15th, 2014: Moved the discussion from the bugtracker here:

Salmo:

Brennus54 - In-game specs for the Breds-Safat 12.7mm detailed below. Note rate of fire = 699-701 round per minute.
1. Can you explain further how you determined ROF to be 530/min?
2. Current ROF in-game should be 700/min, are you saying you want ROF reduced to 575/min?

[Breda-SAFAT-12,7mm] //Fuselage mount
// Generic Breda SAFAT cal. 12,7 mm
types Gun

GunClass Aircraft
WeaponType BULLET_LIGHT
BulletClass DetailedAerodynamic
Specification Mass 28.9 kg Action Automatic Fixation Static BarrelBore 12.7 mm Dispersion 6 mils RateOfFire 699 to 701 per minute ActiveRange 1 m to 4000 m //9 mils dispersion equals 0.5 degrees
FSound Bob/Weapons/MG_SAFAT_12mm
//FSound Bob/Weapons/MG_Vickers

Brennus54:

Hello TF_Salmo,
1. i dertermine breda-safat RoF by firing all ammunition and i measure the time needed to fire it all.
300 bullets per machinegun fired in 34 seconds if my memory is intact.
(300x60)/34= 529 approximately

2. i already know the current ROF is 700/min, one person already tell me, i think you Atag member see that in the game code. Isn't it ?
- It seems after my simple calcul that the in-game ROF is 529 or 530/min.
If the Rof was really 699-701 round per minute we could fired all ammunitions in 25 seconds approximately (60/700)x300=25.
- We have to note that the real ROF of this machinegun is 700, i mean it fired at this RoF if the machingeun is not helix-synchronized.
The fact is, obvisouly, the weapons installed on the G-50 are synchronised, so:

Does it means the game reproduce the G-50 synchronisation system?

If this is the case, we should have a variable Rof according to the helix RPM but this is not the case.. (300 bullets fired in 34 seconds)

To solve this question, maybe is it possible to shoot with a breda-safat without the fuselage mount, i mean firing with it alone, without being installed in a G-50. I don't know if this test is possible but it could bring us answers about this Rof problem.

Salmo:

Yes, shooting with a breda-safat without the fuselage mount & timing the ROF is a good idea. We need to consider also, whether the ROF specified in the game files is truely the ROF when the game plays. TF has found that you can't always rely on parameters in game files to reflect the actual experience in-game. We continue to look into this issue & your information & interest is invaluable.