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Thread: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

  1. #1
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    Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Gentlemen.

    Zorn means anger or wrath and believe me, i'm exceptionally angry. Name is business, atm.

    After reading another thread where some people discussed to tweak the 109's Pilot's G Force capabilities i finaly decided to make my own ... discussion.



    When 4.3 came out i felt everything was right, Flightmodel, Damagemodel, Graphics.... and i was greatly satisfied that the 20mm MG/FF in my opinion (and many others) was finaly accurate in terms of dealing damage to a vehicle build of aluminium, a bit of steel and wood - flying through the air! Also MG17 became awesome - Remember this Übungsmunition/Zerleger? ...oh dear - good times!
    - But then --- the amount of Pilotkills on the Red side raised surpassing. Forum was exploding.

    We all know what happened: Hotfix 4.321

    Not only that the "issue" with the Sprenggranate 20mm was "fixed" (Though i feel the whole 20mm-Ammo was degraded or the Tankfires and Hurritanks got their armorplates back)-
    also Übungsmuniton/Zerleger 7,92mm became totaly useless!! Now, why is that?

    An example:

    Imagine you sit in your car. Maybe an old one. And someone fire's 2 explosive 20mm shell's of any kind -Splitter/Sprengbrand/Mine whatever- right on your roof. Do you honestly expect to survive that?
    You shoot a Boar with a 20mm explosive shell, it disintegrates!!! Nothing left but red dust!

    Did it happen for "balancing"? While everyone yearns after Historically accurate - blablabla?



    I am sick. Sick of putting 4-6 20mm into a Red Airframe, thinking: "Jesus - he must be dead!" - only to see him fly away like nothing happened.


    I'm speaking not only for myself, but for all those Blue Pilots out there who calmly accepted every single disfavour coming up in all these patches caused by the stamina of moaning red Pilots.
    I want my "historiacally accurate" ammo back - and my Übungsmunition working again.



    Additional: After 10 years of flying online, 3 years CloD i feel ashamed of the way a lot of people use to fly this game nowadays.
    70 years ago the Men in these Machines felt terrible fears, died horrifying deaths and only they had one goal: To land and survive the Day.
    What you experience now on ATAG, which is the most frequented and recommended server for this game, is nothing but Battlefield 4 or Call of Duty for Flightsimmers.
    Of course it is a game... but... you know - only to get the kill. I can respawn. Wheres the Honor? Where are the Salutes? Wheres the will to come home again? Bet 20% of Pilots aren't even able to land their Plane safely. Nevermind.
    Friendly reminder: I want my accurate Ammo back!

    Thank you, Gentlemen.

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    Supporting Member 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)'s Avatar
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    you are most welcome to re-install 4.3 and fly that version of the game.

    It is BS like this that makes me seriously consider not bothering to help improve this game at all for ungrateful people such as yourself.
    Last edited by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P); May-22-2014 at 15:22.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Grafzorn,


    "...I am sick. Sick of putting 4-6 20mm into a Red Airframe".

    Might I suggest you desist then?

    Septic.
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    Supporting Member Robo.'s Avatar
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Hi and welcome to the forums. I am sorry to hear you're frustrated and feel like there is blue or red colour involved in any of these patches. There was an issue with HE munition caused by a simple typing error and this error has been rectified. There is no black magic or conspiracy involved. I suggest you try to fly any of the RAF fighters you claim to be tanks and get shot at by 20mm munition to see the effect from the other perspective.

    As for online flying, people are people, they will fly as it suits them, some will indeed see this game as some kind of air quake. Nothing to do with TF I am afraid. People will also always complain (no matter what TF does) as you simply can not please everyone. Some people will even complain about other people complaining too much

    Hope that helped, good luck online.

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    Exclamation Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    GrafZorn, your concerns are noted. I leave that for Team Fusion to address, should they wish.

    As moderator, I will advise you that coming onto this forum with a rant such as yours -- especially as your first post -- is not the best thing to do here. Should you wish to continue this, or any, discussion on this forum, I suggest you temper your tone considerably. Please do not test me on this aspect.

    Thank you,

    Snapper


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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Oh good, just what we need...

    A loudmouth with a big sense of entitlement, who is unhappy about his lack of success, so he decides to vent.

    No proof, no videos, just a real ignorance of the facts.

    Anyone who bothers to read the forums would understand TF 4.3 was bugged. The effects of all HE rounds was mistakenly set far too high due to a misplaced decimal point in the global weapons file... hence the incredibly effective MG/FF 20mm. (and the AAA)

    I would recommend you learn how to fly and shoot. Anyone with the basic skills can shoot down or kill all of the British aircraft with the MG/FF in TF 4.312.

    Either that, or go back to WAR THUNDER.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Here comes the beating of the dead horse again

    Well everyone wants pilot kills but the reality is STOP TRYING TO KILL THE PILOT !!!!!!!!
    Aim for the engine ,control surfaces , oil system , radiator .

    I only fly blue and I have had no issues in shooting planes down with the occasional pk
    If you want BF4 or Call of duty style game play then go back to the last patch because shooting wildly in a dogfight and getting 4 or 5 pk's in one sortie takes no skill .

    At the moment with the new hotfix I feel that this is the most balanced it has been in a long time
    And there are allot of blue pilots who have no issues shooting down enemy planes with the occasional pk and trust me if you are positive the enemy plane will fly off uneffected after receiving 5-6 cannon rounds try flying red and see what happens

    I'm sorry but your post seems to be a whinge about not getting enough pk's because your ammo isn't on steroids Pk'S are earned not given


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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    GrafZorn , I have more than 3000 h in this sim flying both sides and G50s also and I can tell you DM here is faaaar away from any other sim.
    Hitboxes are so small like supercharger, engine cylinder , MG, MG ammo .....

    If you want something else go to War Thunder or BoS

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    "Imagine you sit in your car. Maybe an old one. And someone fire's 2 explosive 20mm shell's of any kind -Splitter/Sprengbrand/Mine whatever- right on your roof. Do you honestly expect to survive that?
    You shoot a Boar with a 20mm explosive shell, it disintegrates!!! Nothing left but red dust!"

    Whaa! Whaa! Plenty of real life anecdotes of Spits and Hurris getting hit with 20mm rounds and the pilots flying home, but I can assure you in game a good 20mm hit will red-screen or black-screen a pilot. And just how many boars have you shot with a 20mm?

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    A gift horse is a horse that was a gift, quite simply. When given a horse, it would be bad manners to inspect the horse's mouth to see if it has bad teeth. This can be applied as an analogy to any gift: Don't inspect it to make sure it matches some standard you have, just be grateful!

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Are you sure your hitting the target sorry couldn't resist

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Maybe he should install patch 4.69 with flying tanks. Blue side gets the flying Tiger.
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by atag_wolf View Post
    maybe he should install patch 4.69 with flying tanks. Blue side gets the flying tiger.
    weeeeeeeeeeee
    image.jpg


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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Welcome GrafZorn

    Might I present you with this, you are going to need it

    post-1723-1270137909.jpg

    Oh, and just fly the E1 for 2 reasons, it has no canon so eliminates that disappointment, and its much more satisfying shooting down the 'brylcreem brigade' in their shiny Spitfires in a lil 'ol E1

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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    Supporting Member Robo.'s Avatar
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Welcome GrafZornOh, and just fly the E1 for 2 reasons, it has no canon so eliminates that disappointment,
    Disappointment of shooting wings and things off? E-1

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robo. View Post
    Disappointment of shooting wings and things off? E-1
    The man is clearly having a frothy over his (perceived) nerfed cannon ammo for his E3/4 , all I am suggesting is he fly an E1 where there is no canon so he cant be disappointed about how useless he thinks the canon ammo is.

    Real men fly E1's
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

  17. #17
    Supporting Member Robo.'s Avatar
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Real men fly E1's
    Real men fly Hurricanes And the real manly men fly 110s or bombers.

  18. #18
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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Hohoho - quick reaction, written in anger leads to indignation! Bugger it!

    My apologies for the chosen language - and i agree, the 20mm ammo is modeled accurate.

    But still I'm wondering what has happened to the Übungsmunition/Zerleger, couldn't find anything about it in the readme (4.3 & 4.312)?

    Greetings

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    All's forgiven!

    Just for the record, everything is up for discussion. To get anything like this considered or reevaluated by Team Fusion requires some back up -- videos, tracks, recognized documentation, etc etc. I've seen many times TF go the extra mile to either prove or debunk a concern or misconception in the pursuit of historical accuracy to the limit the Clod software permits.

    I hope someone from TF can answer your question on the U-Z.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrafZorn View Post
    Hohoho - quick reaction, written in anger leads to indignation! Bugger it!

    My apologies for the chosen language - and i agree, the 20mm ammo is modeled accurate.

    But still I'm wondering what has happened to the Übungsmunition/Zerleger, couldn't find anything about it in the readme (4.3 & 4.312)?

    Greetings


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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    I've been wondering a bit about these 3 examples I've observed the last couple of weeks. Is it the damage from the cannon rounds that is underwhelming or perhaps the visual hit effects are somewhat over done? Only one of these Spitfires went down, the one in the first clip made another attack on the bomber and lost a wing colliding with it's tail.

    Video removed as it has no relevance on the discussion about 20mm effectiveness. The effects are overdone once the trk. has been edited in the 'External view utilty'
    Last edited by Stig1207; May-29-2014 at 03:27.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    its interesting how most of the people here try to talk his point down. havent read a qualified answer yet, like 0.303 is simulated with a impact on the wing of certain size and the 20mm therefore should be like 20mm, the HE 20mm should take a piece out like 5 sq ft. id like to know what difference is there between the certain amo in the game...

    heres a MK 108 i know its 30 mm but the spit in the track above got hit by ten 20 mm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    The question is how much damage does around 6 grams of HE in the Minengeschoss can cause when exploding inside a wing that is mostly a big area of empty space?
    My guess is not as much as can be thought as the pressure from the explosion will have all the space in the wing to expand and loose energy before affecting the wing skin.
    Now, if that same shell hits a spar and explodes embedded in it, the damage will be a lot higher.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    The question is how much damage does around 6 grams of HE in the Minengeschoss can cause when exploding inside a wing that is mostly a big area of empty space?
    My guess is not as much as can be thought as the pressure from the explosion will have all the space in the wing to expand and loose energy before affecting the wing skin.
    Now, if that same shell hits a spar and explodes embedded in it, the damage will be a lot higher.
    check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5th_Tot View Post
    check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying
    30mm is not 20mm

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5th_Tot View Post
    check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying
    There is a huge difference between the power of a 30mm round and a 20mm.

    It is not just a question of 1/3 increase in value... the amount of explosive carried and weight of the 30mm is far more.

    Please look at this following page for an analysis of WWII aircraft armament by Anthony Williams the well known expert and published author.

    http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

    For reference the 20mm 'Minen' round used by the MG/FFM is the "20 X 80RB" and the 30mm round used by the MG108 is the "30 X 90RB"

    Williams has rated the effectiveness, ('power') of these rounds at 14 for the MG/FFM and 58 for the Mk108. In effect the power of the 30mm is more than 4 times that of the 20mm. This is going to be accentuated by the fact the 20mm will need several rounds to burst in the same area to do serious damage... if they are scattered about... much less effect. Only one 30mm is required.

    The values incorporated into the game were arrived at after very careful consideration... are they perfect...? This is a simulation, not real life. Are the values close? Yes.

    Anyone who is having problems shooting down British aircraft with the German 20mm weapons needs to work on his gunnery skills.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-27-2014 at 18:35.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    One thing that comes to mind regarding wing strength in Spitfires and Hurricanes are the Browning machine guns themselves. These are heavy chunks of ordnance steel that are solidly bolted into each wing -- four of them on each side. We frequently take weapon damage, as expected, to the firing mechanism which prevents some/all from firing. But surely there must be a buttress effect within each wing to help withstand the effects of 20 mm from a wing structural view.


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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    i said so allready... but you did not read...(that wing is on the deck no wind no nothing and most important not lodaded)

    back to the game and the 20mm HE and those tons of hits with no considerable damage
    what do you now about the 20mm HE in the game?? it had 3,7 grams of explosive!?

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Anyone who is having problems shooting down British aircraft with the German 20mm weapons needs to work on his gunnery skills.
    + 100

    What do you expect, air to air missile ?

    Watch the guncams guys , you'll not see wings and tails fall off and that is pretty common here if you shoot well.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Please look at this following page for an analysis of WWII aircraft armament by Anthony Williams the well known expert and published author.

    http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

    For reference the 20mm 'Minen' round used by the MG/FFM is the "20 X 80RB" and the 30mm round used by the MG108 is the "30 X 90RB"

    thanks for the charts but thats not the game. it would be nice if anyone who KNOWS can tell about how its simulated.

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    Re: Where's my MG/FF 20mm?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5th_Tot View Post
    thanks for the charts but thats not the game. it would be nice if anyone who KNOWS can tell about how its simulated.
    5th_Tot, I hope you find your answer to your question. As moderator, I will ask you to be more respectful in how you interact with other forum members.

    Thank you,

    Snapper


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