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Thread: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

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    .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Just working up a load using a different powder (Hodgdon Varget) and, with a couple of rounds left over, decided to lob 'em at a 300 yard target. The old Lee Enfield (sporterized with a scope) c. 1943 still throws 'em straight!

    Thanks go to Hubert Bigglesworth (who knows a thing or three about L.E. SMLE's) on this forum who provided me with a bunch of links on accurizing these old girls.









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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Wow Snapper, good shooting! Old Enfields are wonderful accurate rifles, but they require a good trigger man to get groups like that at 300m.

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    I have 3 Lee-Enfields, a No.4 Mk1, A No.4 Mk1*, and a No.3 MkIII with magazine cutoff and volly sights. I use a Parker Hale PH5C target sight on the No.4s and I find it to be pleasantly accurate. Sadly my surplus .303 ammo is drying up and I'll need to start reloading soon. Do you have a recommendation for the best powder and grain measurement to best simulate MK7 ball ammo? IE 174gr bullet at around 2440 FPS.




    Last edited by 3./JG51_Heiden; Jul-22-2014 at 13:54.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Nice rifles!

    I have a part box of Hornady RN 174 gr, but I was never able to find a load with that bullet that would group well out of my rifle. I've had better luck with Hornady and Sierra spirepoint 150 grain bullets.

    2440 fps/174 gr is pretty sparky out of an old rifle. I have my Hodgdon reloading manual handy. The "gentlest" load I could find in that manual is:*

    Bullet: 174 GR Sierra HPBT Dia: .311"
    Hodgdon Bl-C(2) 43.0 gr 2442 fps 36,400 CUP (minimum load)

    BL-C(2) is my preferred powder, but hard to get in these parts. I've turned to Varget because my gunshop brought some in. I bought 3 lbs but it quickly sold out. Wished I bought more, now that I've tried it.

    * always double check any load against other sources. A simple typo could be disastrous!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3./JG51_Heiden View Post
    I have 3 Lee-Enfields, a No.4 Mk1, A No.4 Mk1*, and a No.3 MkIII with magazine cutoff and volly sights. I use a Parker Hale PH5C target sight on the No.4s and I find it to be pleasantly accurate. Sadly my surplus .303 ammo is drying up and I'll need to start reloading soon. Do you have a recommendation for the best powder and grain measurement to best simulate MK7 ball ammo? IE 174gr bullet at around 2440 FPS.






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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Very similar ballistics to 30.06 springfield...

    During a scientific exercise, I started experimenting with bullet seating depth until I found the "sweet spot" for my M-14 (M-1A). I found that the proper load depth was every bit as important as the usual powder/primer/case variables.

    Of course there's lots of "rules" out there such as just touching the throat lands, etc., but experimenting revealed the best depth for my particular rifle. I'll bet your Enfield loads can be find tuned with this easy adjustment.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Ehhh... I don't know that .30-06 and .303 compare that well. .30-06 is quite a bit hotter! I have rifles in .30-06, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser, 7.62x51 and .303 British, and I find .303 to be the least potent of them based on some penetration tests I did some years ago. .30-06 and 7.62x54R seemed to be the best performing, followed closely by 7.62x51 and 8mm. The 8mm Mauser round could really lob a large heavy bullet but at reduced FPS, which leads me to believe that it would be a great big game round. Of course, I don't hunt, but I'd take one of my Mausers for it if I had to.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Keller View Post
    Wow Snapper, good shooting! Old Enfields are wonderful accurate rifles, but they require a good trigger man to get groups like that at 300m.
    Thanks for the kind words.

    I went back out today but conditions were hot and windy (at least, that's my excuse LOL) so my groups opened up a lot. Just more reason to get back out there in the cool, calm morning!

    I've trying a software program that is a free app for iPhones/iPads and Androids called Nikon Spot On. It comes with a huge database of both factory loads for every calibre you can think of, plus component data if you handload. For instance, I'm using Hornady 150 grain Spire Point Interlock bullets in my handloads. It's database has the Ballistic Coefficient for that projectile, which is 0.361. Next you have the program GPS your location, then it gets the current weather bureau info for temperature, humidity, air pressure, and prevailing wind. Finally it needs your muzzle velocity. Don't have a chronograph? No problem. Just shoot two groups at (your choice) 25 yds and 50 yards, or 50 yards and 100 yards, or 100 yards and 200 yards (my choice). Average out the two groups and determine what your bullet drop from 100 yards to 200 yards. Let's say it's 4.3". You enter that number and hit "calculate" and the program uses the info it already has to determine your muzzle velocity. Cool eh? (BTW, the program also does metric if that's preferred).

    My Nikon scope is a Prostaff 3 x 9 "BDC". The Bullet Drop Compensator in the scope is a vertical series of small circles below the actual crosshairs. The program tells you that if your rifle, with that load, is zeroed at 200 yards, then to hit the bullseye at 300 yards then hold over at the second circle down. You can even print out the jpg and stick it on your rifle stock for quick reference:

    So far, it seems to work really well. It's designed for hunters, so Nikon promotes their Prostaff laser rangefinder to determine unknown distances which you can then use with the BDC to figure out which holdover reticle to use. Lots of Youtube videos demonstrating how well it works with guys hitting small metal gongs at various distances to 600+ yards/meters and beyond. Regrettably at my rifle club we're not allowed to set targets at intermediate distances, just at the berms where target holders are fixed in place. But it IS satisfying to hit the 300 yard gong with a resounding THWACK!!!



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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Fidget View Post
    Very similar ballistics to 30.06 springfield...

    During a scientific exercise, I started experimenting with bullet seating depth until I found the "sweet spot" for my M-14 (M-1A). I found that the proper load depth was every bit as important as the usual powder/primer/case variables.

    Of course there's lots of "rules" out there such as just touching the throat lands, etc., but experimenting revealed the best depth for my particular rifle. I'll bet your Enfield loads can be find tuned with this easy adjustment.
    Yeah, I tend to load my handloads a bit soft due to the age of the rifle, so my .303 handloads would be well below what you were feeding your M14/M1A. The Springfield Armory rifles are really nice, and...really expensive. A shooting buddy of mine just got his hands on a Chinese Norinco counterpart for, predictably, a lot less. The fit 'n finish is pretty rough, but he just wanted a fun shooter. It still feels mighty nice to hold.

    He's going to be hand loading .308 for it. I suggested he full length resize the brass every time he loads it to ensure reliable feeding. For my bolt action .303 I just neck resize the fire-formed brass for closer chamber fit in my rifle, plus lengthened brass life since I'm not stretching the bejeebers out of the brass with each reload. Also, don't need to lube the cases when just neck resizing.

    And you're right. Seating depth/overall length is important for tightening groups, so long as your loads still chamber reliably. So many parameters to experiment with, but it's all good!



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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by 3./JG51_Heiden View Post
    Ehhh... I don't know that .30-06 and .303 compare that well. .30-06 is quite a bit hotter! I have rifles in .30-06, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser, 7.62x51 and .303 British, and I find .303 to be the least potent of them based on some penetration tests I did some years ago. .30-06 and 7.62x54R seemed to be the best performing, followed closely by 7.62x51 and 8mm. The 8mm Mauser round could really lob a large heavy bullet but at reduced FPS, which leads me to believe that it would be a great big game round. Of course, I don't hunt, but I'd take one of my Mausers for it if I had to.
    Nobody got this one right!

    First, my M1A fires .308 (7.62x51 mm NATO), not 30.06 Springfield cartridges. My mistake, however, since they use the same bullet, they are ballistically equal.

    Next, according to my old Sierra Bullets hand loading manual, the exterior ballistics compare very closely to the British 303 (.311 caliber) bullet at around 2500 FPS:

    150 grain Sierra Spire point .308 ballistic coefficient = 387
    150 grain Sierra Spire point .311 ballistic coefficient = 375

    So the 303 British actually has less (imperceptibly less) drop with these bullets at these velocities.

    Finally, I think you are confusing ballistics with velocities. While the hand loaded 303 peaks at 2600 FPS recommended, the .308 peaks at 3000 FPS. That being said, most competitive .308 loaders stay near 2800 due to increased accuracy in service rifles. Faster is not always better!

    Penetration tests, something I do not deal with as a target shooter, have so many variables that even the experts have trouble with them. Bullet weight, velocity, metal composition, shape, sectional density (Hollow Point, armor piercing or solid) are all factors that provide more than a few articles each year in the shooting magazines.

    Suffice it to say that if you are satisfied with the energy and penetration in your personal tests, that's good enough. I agree that 200 grains against a whitetail deer is simply a good way to make your shoulder sore. However, 150 grains against a ticked-off Grizzy bear is a good way to become dinner. The right load for the right objective... That's the trick!
    Last edited by Baffin; Jul-23-2014 at 10:41.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Yeah, I tend to load my handloads a bit soft due to the age of the rifle, so my .303 handloads would be well below what you were feeding your M14/M1A. The Springfield Armory rifles are really nice, and...really expensive. A shooting buddy of mine just got his hands on a Chinese Norinco counterpart for, predictably, a lot less. The fit 'n finish is pretty rough, but he just wanted a fun shooter. It still feels mighty nice to hold.

    He's going to be hand loading .308 for it. I suggested he full length resize the brass every time he loads it to ensure reliable feeding. For my bolt action .303 I just neck resize the fire-formed brass for closer chamber fit in my rifle, plus lengthened brass life since I'm not stretching the bejeebers out of the brass with each reload. Also, don't need to lube the cases when just neck resizing.

    And you're right. Seating depth/overall length is important for tightening groups, so long as your loads still chamber reliably. So many parameters to experiment with, but it's all good!

    Snapper, you have awakened the sleeping monster! I had to quit Service Rifle competition five years ago due to old eyes. "Where'd that front sight go?" Your resizing comment revived some ancient memory so there in the files was my old reloading notes.

    I actually had a case head separation due to repeated full length resizing, but then discovered a work-around. Using a "Pre-Mic" brand case length gauge, I adjusted the head spacing on my resizing die to 0.002" less than ANSI specifications instead of forcing the base onto the case holder with firm pressure. It's an "almost" full length resize. Afterwards, it acted just like a neck resizer as you have described. The result was no noticeable length creep over many reloads, with championship accuracy.

    Planes & guns... what a great websight!

    I'm crawling back into my monster cave...
    Last edited by Baffin; Jul-23-2014 at 10:24.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Nobody?




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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    [QUOTE=3./JG51_Heiden;131045]I have 3 Lee-Enfields, a No.4 Mk1, A No.4 Mk1*, and a No.3 MkIII with magazine cutoff and volly sights. I use a Parker Hale PH5C target sight on the No.4s and I find it to be pleasantly accurate. Sadly my surplus .303 ammo is drying up and I'll need to start reloading soon. Do you have a recommendation for the best powder and grain measurement to best simulate MK7 ball ammo? IE 174gr bullet at around 2440 FPS.

    That's a lot of bullet! For wear, comfort and accuracy up to 200 yards, may I recommend a 150 grain bullet. Choose Hollow point boat tails if you can find it but Spire Point or Full metal jacket (Targets Only) are also good. Personally, I like Moly coated bullets to reduce barrel wear and make cleaning a cinch. Moly's effect on accuracy is still debatable but certainly doesn't hurt.

    See Snapper's posts above... He shoots the 303.

    For sport shooting, use the cheapest powder & primers you can find. Non competitive shooting is like fine food... you can pay a king's ransom for it and never taste the difference!
    Last edited by Baffin; Jul-23-2014 at 10:55.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    You're doing it right Snapper, only neck size .303 Brit rounds just as long as you're always using them in the same rifle. The shoulder will move way forward once fired as Lee Enfield chambers are headspaced from the rim, not from the shoulder as other cartridges are.

    As for firing .308 from a semi-auto, ALWYAS full length resize. I have a 2003 Springfield M1A that I reload for and you must always FL resize and trim the brass to proper specs before reloading. It should also be mentioned that you should always use hard primers in a military semi-auto, Winchester and CCI make hard primers that will work well; DO NOT USE FEDERAL PRIMERS!

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Keller View Post
    You're doing it right Snapper, only neck size .303 Brit rounds just as long as you're always using them in the same rifle. The shoulder will move way forward once fired as Lee Enfield chambers are headspaced from the rim, not from the shoulder as other cartridges are.

    As for firing .308 from a semi-auto, ALWYAS full length resize. I have a 2003 Springfield M1A that I reload for and you must always FL resize and trim the brass to proper specs before reloading. It should also be mentioned that you should always use hard primers in a military semi-auto, Winchester and CCI make hard primers that will work well; DO NOT USE FEDERAL PRIMERS!
    I agree and disagree. I agree that Neck sizing fire formed brass is certainly best for a bolt gun that has no other issues.

    Full length resizing is the simplest way to avoid stuck cases in Semi-auto service rifles.

    But, repeated full length resizing .308 or 30.06 brass will lead to case head separation after a while. I've done it, and it's a major pain to get that brass out of the chamber! So, resizing as described in my earlier post to just a little less than the fire formed length will push the shoulder down sufficiently to allow smooth M1 and M14 operation while preventing excessive working of the brass like true FL sizing does. My M1A shoots well under 1 MOA using this technique and I also have almost no need to trim the case length, a chore I hate!!

    Every chamber is a little different, so experimentation is necessary to get the best setup for each gun. Simply put, the chamber should have the minimum acceptable "slop" to allow sticky-free operation.

    I have always used Federal 210M (Match) primers in competition and have never had a slamfire (I guess that's what you're trying to avoid), or other ignition related problem. I think the slamfire phenomenon is much more closely related to an improperly fitted firing pin, but never having experienced it, I never studied up on it. Federal 210M's were the primer of choice by the shooters I associated with during my serious shooting days.

    I even had an incident where my M1A went off full-automatic due to a minor error by the gunsmith and all the Federal 210's functioned as designed. That day was an eye-opener!
    Last edited by Baffin; Jul-23-2014 at 22:59.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    OBOY!!! Back in the day...Highpower rifle matches...across the course (200 yds standing slow fire, 200 yds sitting (or kneeling) rapid fire, 300 yds prone rapid fire and 600 yds prone slow fire. The quest for the coveted 'Distinguished
    Rifleman Badge'. Long range matches...600 and 1000 yds. Palma matches (competition between English speaking countries) 308 caliber only, 700, 800 and 1000yds (don't remember exactly...could have been 800, 900 and 1000 yds.

    Searching for the best load for your rifle. Some shooters not only weigh powder charges but also bullets, primers and brass!

    War story...Behind the 1000 yard line at Camp Perry, Ohio, sight of the annual NRA National Matches. US Marine rifle team shooters were lounging in the shade of the trees. Along comes a female who looks to be about 5 feet tall. She
    is pulling a modified golf cart that has all her shooting equipment aboard...stool, spotting scope, mat, lawn chair, umbrella and a bolt action rifle that look longer than she was tall...and she was wearing a cute little pink baseball type cap.
    One of the Marines made a comment, "I wonder where that little woman thinks she's going with that big ole gun". One of the other Marines spoke up, "Shit! I bet she's going out there to whup your sorry butt in this match." Of course,
    that started a bunch of teasing and off-color remarks back and forth.

    That little lady did outscore the young marine. In fact she outscored all but 2 or 3 other shooters in the match. I can't recall her name, but at the time she was the top female high-power rifle shooter in the USA!!!
    jmack_GabbyHayes

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    That was a fun read, Jmack! Target shooting is a great equalizer between genders, and even big guys/little guys. Sam Colt would no doubt approve. LOL

    At my shooting range there are fellows that I am completely in awe of. The calibres they shoot sound like English toothpaste brands. One fellow actually reloads every five rounds in the little hut provided just behind the firing line. These fellows shoot at the Regional and National matches and obviously are dead serious about it. I'm not quite at that point, and really have no desire to be. But it IS fun to shoot for loonies & toonies with my buddies, or we'll go for huge stakes on a hot day and shoot for beers (winnings claimed afterward at the local pub).



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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by jmack View Post
    OBOY!!! Back in the day...Highpower rifle matches...across the course (200 yds standing slow fire, 200 yds sitting (or kneeling) rapid fire, 300 yds prone rapid fire and 600 yds prone slow fire. The quest for the coveted 'Distinguished
    Rifleman Badge'. Long range matches...600 and 1000 yds. Palma matches (competition between English speaking countries) 308 caliber only, 700, 800 and 1000yds (don't remember exactly...could have been 800, 900 and 1000 yds.

    Searching for the best load for your rifle. Some shooters not only weigh powder charges but also bullets, primers and brass!

    War story...Behind the 1000 yard line at Camp Perry, Ohio, sight of the annual NRA National Matches. US Marine rifle team shooters were lounging in the shade of the trees. Along comes a female who looks to be about 5 feet tall. She
    is pulling a modified golf cart that has all her shooting equipment aboard...stool, spotting scope, mat, lawn chair, umbrella and a bolt action rifle that look longer than she was tall...and she was wearing a cute little pink baseball type cap.
    One of the Marines made a comment, "I wonder where that little woman thinks she's going with that big ole gun". One of the other Marines spoke up, "Shit! I bet she's going out there to whup your sorry butt in this match." Of course,
    that started a bunch of teasing and off-color remarks back and forth.

    That little lady did outscore the young marine. In fact she outscored all but 2 or 3 other shooters in the match. I can't recall her name, but at the time she was the top female high-power rifle shooter in the USA!!!
    Size does not matter

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    BLAH BLAH BLAH .....lol, the best thing about the lee Enfield was the butt plate. brass with a little latch in it! (for an oil bottle).When the sarge took all your smokes of you at night you could hide half a dozen ciggy's in there along with a few matches.

    That and the rear locking lugs...... !

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Our Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper travels several times per year to our Great White North because of national security concerns and natural resources development. Two years ago he went up there to announce a tripling in size of the Canadian Rangers. The CR's are a branch of the Canadian Armed Forces that is made up largely of native Inuit who patrol vast expanses of the Canadian Arctic. Tough as nails, their issued service rifle is....the venerable Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 in .303 British! Aside from the obvious military utility, the CR's use these rifles as game-getters and, occasionally, self defense against polar bears. They love their "Smellies" (Short Magazine Lee Enfield), but since production essentially ceased back in the '50's, spare parts are getting hard to find reliably. Harper asked them what their preferred choice would be for a new service rifle, their answer: NEW Lee Enfields! LOL Hey, they need something that can be dropped on the rocks, into the icy Arctic Ocean, subjected to -70 C temps, and still shoot!

    Colt Canada (right here in my Kitchener, Ontario) is the preferred supplier, but they are quibbling over the relatively small initial order size of an estimated 10,000 units. I guess the start up costs for a completely new rifle are prohibitive, and they would have to reverse-engineer existing ones since production machinery is long, long gone. One specification that would change is calibre: .303 British would be updated to 7.62 NATO. The Canadian Rangers will have scopes on their rifles, but they insisted that they be easily removable in the field and that iron sights be retained even with scopes attached. Easy to understand why, given the conditions they operate in. There has been talk of alternate suppliers (Canadian Tire? LOL) and going to over-the-counter bolt action rifles (Remington 700's, Mossberg MVP's, Savage Model 10's, etc), but nothing has been decided at this point. It sounds easier to pick a new fighter jet! The Canadian Rangers were adamant that they want bolt action in preference to any semi autos, and were even reluctant about polymer synthetic stocks (plastic? hehehehe). All I know is that when they finally do decide....I want one for myself!



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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    It is said that during WWII...the Americans made 'target' rifles, the Germans made 'hunting' rifles and the British made 'battle' rifles. It is also said that if a sheep was caught up in wire with it's privates showing...a British soldier passing
    by might say, "Blimey! I wish that was Margie from the pub". A German soldier passing by might say, "Gott! I wish that was my favorite barmaid". An American soldier passing by would probably say, "Damn! I wish it was dark".
    jmack_GabbyHayes

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Hi.

    Great results there Snapper, your really falling in love with your "Old Enfield" i see. Wonderful !!

    Nice collection of Enfield's Heiden S!

    Yes .303" is a very sweet round indeed. On the target range, on game and in service use, its a real "jack of all trades"
    Mild recoil, Good penertration, Good wound ballistics (MKVII service use), Reasonably flat trajectory.
    Not bad for a round that was adopted for service 126 years ago and designed for use in a Bolt action rifle and loaded with black powder.
    In those 126 years it's seen service on land, sea and air in service rifles and machine guns in 100's of colonial conflicts, 2 world wars and finally in Korea.
    Britain really got good value for money out of that design.

    And as Jmack's post says "The British made Battle rifles". I couldnt agree more, from the Pattern 53' Enfields all the way through to the L1A1 SLR. Cheap, reliable and utterly soldier proof.

    Great Thread Gents, nice to know there are so many fellow shooters and enthusiasts on the forum and in the virtual sky.

    S!!!! to all.

  22. #22
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Just because our "Target" Rifles can hit what we aim at, doesn't keep them from being "Battle Rifles"!

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    Last edited by Baffin; Aug-02-2014 at 10:17.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    I want 'em all!

    I got word from my local gun store that they may have a line on surplus M1 Garands still packed in grease coming in from (IIRC) South Korea. Apparently there is a regulation in the U.S. preventing the importation of previously exported military arms, otherwise they'd be snapped up Stateside in a New York minute. Just waiting to hear further info on this.


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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Snapper,

    In the States we have a distributer called the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) who handles distributions like you describe. They are very good about describing the condition, origin and significant collector marks like cartouches on stocks which affect value. I think that "Packed in grease" may mean only that it was corrosion proofed when placed in storage, not necessarily that it wasn't worn out already when packed. On the other hand, it might be "Like new".

    I'd look for some way to get an opinion on the condition before buying.
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Good advice, Fidget.

    Although they may not have seen much firing, there's no telling what field use/abuse they went through decades ago before being packed away. I have no idea about 30-06 Ball of the day, whether they may have had corrosive primers or not, as well.


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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    I'd forgotten all about the corrosive primer issue, but it's definitely significant. I have a .30 Carbine with a barrel all pitted from mercury primers. I use it instead of a pistol for home protection. (Too cheap to re-barrel it!)
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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    While not strictly .303 stuff, here's some video of me having some fun shooting an old computer. Don't worry, all the pieces were cleaned up and taken off the range after we were done. Snappy dresser, aren't I!


    Mossberg 500 with buckshot.



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    Smile Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Our Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper travels several times per year to our Great White North because of national security concerns and natural resources development. Two years ago he went up there to announce a tripling in size of the Canadian Rangers. The CR's are a branch of the Canadian Armed Forces that is made up largely of native Inuit who patrol vast expanses of the Canadian Arctic. Tough as nails, their issued service rifle is....the venerable Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 in .303 British! Aside from the obvious military utility, the CR's use these rifles as game-getters and, occasionally, self defense against polar bears. They love their "Smellies" (Short Magazine Lee Enfield), but since production essentially ceased back in the '50's, spare parts are getting hard to find reliably. Harper asked them what their preferred choice would be for a new service rifle, their answer: NEW Lee Enfields! LOL Hey, they need something that can be dropped on the rocks, into the icy Arctic Ocean, subjected to -70 C temps, and still shoot!

    Colt Canada (right here in my Kitchener, Ontario) is the preferred supplier, but they are quibbling over the relatively small initial order size of an estimated 10,000 units. I guess the start up costs for a completely new rifle are prohibitive, and they would have to reverse-engineer existing ones since production machinery is long, long gone. One specification that would change is calibre: .303 British would be updated to 7.62 NATO. The Canadian Rangers will have scopes on their rifles, but they insisted that they be easily removable in the field and that iron sights be retained even with scopes attached. Easy to understand why, given the conditions they operate in. There has been talk of alternate suppliers (Canadian Tire? LOL) and going to over-the-counter bolt action rifles (Remington 700's, Mossberg MVP's, Savage Model 10's, etc), but nothing has been decided at this point. It sounds easier to pick a new fighter jet! The Canadian Rangers were adamant that they want bolt action in preference to any semi autos, and were even reluctant about polymer synthetic stocks (plastic? hehehehe). All I know is that when they finally do decide....I want one for myself!

    Hi atag, I was,am really enjoying this thread,but I have to say,with respect that the No4 mk1 is not classed as a smellie.The smellie was in fact a No1 Mk3, the No4s predecessor.The No4 Mk1 is a lee Enfield but it is not the Short Magazine Lee Enfield,SMLE hence smellie.My apologies for being so pedantic.

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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    I stand corrected!

    Hey, and welcome to the forum, Ando. Good to have another classic firearms enthusiast aboard.



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    Re: .303 British is still a sweet calibre

    @Heiden - Great videos. That is one dead computer! LOL



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