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Thread: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

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    Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    So I buckled and bought the Dora. Joy! Or not.

    I seem to recall somebody posting there's a limit to how many USB controllers DCS is able to recognize? No idea if that's what's causing my problem. Currently I have plugged into my PC:

    Warthog stick.
    Warthog throttle.
    Crosswind pedals.
    x2 Saitek throttle quadrants.
    TiR4.

    DCS sees all controllers in the mapping panel but it seems to be screwed up when trying to assign various inputs. Advancing the throttle while trying to map that axis sees it flash between "R" and "RZ" in the little window. It also assigns the same input for the toe-brakes on the Crosswinds to the throttle. And a bunch of other similar stuff is happening. It seems that DCS is not correctly seeing the individual hardware units and assigning them separate values for "R" and "RZ" etc etc etc.

    Any help would be much appreciated.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Clear all the control axis inputs that are there by default and enter them one by one manually. I've always had to invert my toe brake inputs, which is under "axis tune." Make sure you save your profile when you're done.

    Also, go to the last tab in options and make sure that takeoff assistance and takeoff help are off.

    Good luck. She's a real bitch to get in the air the first time!

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Sounds like you have some double mappings. For some reason DCS likes to map all axis on all devices when you first set it up so like Gavagai says, clear them all and re-map

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Firstly you will probably be setting up the options to fly in sim mode. Make sure for the specfic module itself.
    Then you need t assign that specific mode, theres 2 for each module game and sim or something.

    I made this a while back it may help if this is your first time into DCS.



    And I second make sure take off assistance is off, it really makes things worse and counter intuitive.

    Shout if you need help.



    edit: Check the difficulty settings (or miscellaneous, not sure) in the options to ensure you are running sim mode
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Oct-12-2014 at 10:33.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Cheers guys. I got round it by selecting a pre-set (Dora Real?). I had cleared all the default mappings previous to my first post but it didn't help. All assists were off too. And Chuck's .pdf alerted me to the toe-brakes, but I spotted them reversed when I first played with the controls.

    Well...got off the deck on my fourth attempt, but barely (in a storm, so there might have been a nasty wind making things harder). It doesn't feel like the plane has any weight, feels more like a hang-glider. I tried to lean out the cockpit with the canopy open to check I was on a proper runway but the sim doesn't allow it. Terrible in-cockpit clipping too. So far the only thing that really grabs me is the in-cockpit functionality but the Warthog is a let-down in that regard, none of the centre-positions on three-way switches are recognized as inputs. Or I should point a finger at Kurt Tank for putting a three-way flaps selector on the panel.

    Then I tried a loop into a cloud and lost orientation and crashed...omg, the crash effects are dire. Bring on EDGE!!!

    Having said all that, it's really not that different to CloD I guess and CloD is superb. Maybe the $50 tag raised some kind of unrealistic expectation though I'm not sure what. The speed doesn't feel 'right' while hammering along on the deck; even at 500kmh stuff seems to float past rather than rush like it does in CloD. That kind of contributes to the hang-glider feel. Did I mention the in-cockpit clipping? I really hope that's going to be fixed, it immediately creates an impression of MS CFS (shonky).

    These are only initial impressions, I need to give it a much more intensive workout to see if it gels with me. Once I've got the gun-buttons sorted out I'll try it in combat (so far all I can do is get the gun-button guard to flip up, lol).

    Right, back to the cockpit to see if I can get this bird to love me.

    @ Vlerkies: Yes, everything is in full sim mode. Cheers buddy.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Nothing to add to the great comments above but to say it does take a bit of setting up. Luckily I had someone to help me set mine up. Make sure you save it properly is all I can add.

    Chief
    SERVING THE ROF AND BOS COMMUNITY

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    When you are strapped into a cockpit it is very impractical to lean your head beyond the canopy framing (if not quite impossible). Tail-dragger pilots zig-zag down the taxiway to see where they're going. I know BoS lets you move your head out the window, but that is BOS, after all.

    Agree 100% about the clipping though. For now I reduced my head translation movements in trackir.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Yeah, I can live without being able to lean out the cockpit. The real guys did slacken off their straps though (nearly killed Lipfert a couple of times when he forgot to tighten them again).

    I've had my first combat against a P51 (AI) and managed to shoot him down. During which I discovered how quickly the Dora loses it if the stick is hauled on even moderately. She's no turn-fighter.

    The sim desperately needs EDGE and its, hopefully, drastically improved effects. Hitting the P51 was like a flashback to the first MS CFS. We've been totally spoiled in that dept by CloD and I couldn't play DCS seriously with the effects as they are now.

    I also find it extremely hard to believe it was this difficult to get a wide-tracked fighter off the ground. The tyres seem to model no grip on the tarmac and even a couple of millimetres input to the rudder wants to send the whole gig south. The tutorial says to keep the stick back until 200kmh indicated but the plane tries to lift off by itself at about 170kmh and then everything goes badly wrong. In short, directional stability on the take-off run is atrociously bad.

    It's very pleasant in the air, so long as one isn't having to deal with a P51. It goes where it's told without rubber-banding or otherwise being a twitchy mess. Rolls are fast and sweet. And right on the deck it does feel decently fast (I think the rain was skewing my perception before).

    In summary it's ok but it hasn't grabbed me. It all kind of feels lazy and slow and sedate, if that makes sense. I think if the graphical effects were as good as CloD's it would have a greater WOW! factor. The sounds don't work very well with Buttkicker either...either crazily over-powered or barely there at all. Overall some parts are good, some are ok and others are meh. I was barely aware my wheels had hit the tarmac when I landed (my flaps hadn't gone down though and I had difficulty getting it down before I ran out of runway).

    I'll continue to mess around with it but until the graphics are improved the operative phrase will be "mess around".

    Thanks for the help guys.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Are you setting your flaps to the takeoff position? If you leave them in landing position then takeoffs are very, very squirly.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Yes, the yellow button in the middle.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by II/JG3~Siggi View Post
    Yeah, I can live without being able to lean out the cockpit. The real guys did slacken off their straps though (nearly killed Lipfert a couple of times when he forgot to tighten them again).

    I've had my first combat against a P51 (AI) and managed to shoot him down. During which I discovered how quickly the Dora loses it if the stick is hauled on even moderately. She's no turn-fighter.

    The sim desperately needs EDGE and its, hopefully, drastically improved effects. Hitting the P51 was like a flashback to the first MS CFS. We've been totally spoiled in that dept by CloD and I couldn't play DCS seriously with the effects as they are now.

    I also find it extremely hard to believe it was this difficult to get a wide-tracked fighter off the ground. The tyres seem to model no grip on the tarmac and even a couple of millimetres input to the rudder wants to send the whole gig south. The tutorial says to keep the stick back until 200kmh indicated but the plane tries to lift off by itself at about 170kmh and then everything goes badly wrong. In short, directional stability on the take-off run is atrociously bad.

    It's very pleasant in the air, so long as one isn't having to deal with a P51. It goes where it's told without rubber-banding or otherwise being a twitchy mess. Rolls are fast and sweet. And right on the deck it does feel decently fast (I think the rain was skewing my perception before).

    In summary it's ok but it hasn't grabbed me. It all kind of feels lazy and slow and sedate, if that makes sense. I think if the graphical effects were as good as CloD's it would have a greater WOW! factor. The sounds don't work very well with Buttkicker either...either crazily over-powered or barely there at all. Overall some parts are good, some are ok and others are meh. I was barely aware my wheels had hit the tarmac when I landed (my flaps hadn't gone down though and I had difficulty getting it down before I ran out of runway).

    I'll continue to mess around with it but until the graphics are improved the operative phrase will be "mess around".

    Thanks for the help guys.
    For take off make sure to go into your options for the Dora and put take off assistance to 0. It starts at 100% and IMO it really screws you up more then helps.
    Spec: Intel i9 11900k overclocked at 5.3 GHz, Asus Maximus XIII motherboard, 64 GB high speed DDR4 RAM, ROG Strix RTX 4090, M.2 HD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS with center stick and extension, Saitek Pro Combat Rudder Pedals, Track IR 5 or HP Reverb G2, CH Throttle Quadrant, LG UltraGear 48GQ900 monitor.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by II/JG3~Siggi View Post
    I also find it extremely hard to believe it was this difficult to get a wide-tracked fighter off the ground. The tyres seem to model no grip on the tarmac and even a couple of millimetres input to the rudder wants to send the whole gig south. The tutorial says to keep the stick back until 200kmh indicated but the plane tries to lift off by itself at about 170kmh and then everything goes badly wrong. In short, directional stability on the take-off run is atrociously bad.
    Actually I believe it is probably the best modeled sim for ground handling by far.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Taxying is superb. As you say, the best currently available. It's the take-off run that's bad. I do have take-off assistance turned off.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by II/JG3~Siggi View Post
    Taxying is superb. As you say, the best currently available. It's the take-off run that's bad. I do have take-off assistance turned off.
    re TO: Most others are to forgiving I believe.

    Never the less, you will get it buttoned down and it becomes second nature.

    Spend some time on setting up your axis curves a bit to smooth out the handling a fraction if you haven't already.
    Some comments I made on another forum when I first got the Dora re TO's

    Start like you are taxing just gently and toe brake till you are comfortable with where the nose is pointing. (I found like just 1 or 2 degrees to the right helps as she will always want to come left a bit so this buys a little time to catch it)

    When you have it there and its rolling hold the stick all the way back in your lap.
    Increase RPM steadily now to 2500, you will need to be prepared for right rudder input to keep her centered as the torque increases.
    I actually increased the rpm fairly quickly in a steady movement.

    Keeping the stick back, gentle rudder is needed to the right, don't center the stick till its past the 170 mark. (got a 15 curve in my rudder in the axis settings, for now)
    Once between 170-200 just easily center the stick (don't slam it forward to quickly) and she will get very light as the tail wheel pops up. you don't need to help it up at all.
    Then it will practically fly itself off the tarmac.
    I found that trying to center the stick at 170, I might have been doing that to early, and it was very squirelly to the point of being uncontrollable.
    Between 170-190 though it was much more stable, tailwheel came up by itself and it just needs careful but deliberate right rudder to stop the movement to the left when the main gear leaves the ground.
    Heres an easy takeoff mission made by Azref from ACG.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qd1l05i21...actice.7z?dl=0
    It gets you started on the runway. Easier than going through the startup on the apron.

    Also, set your elevators to neutral before you roll, makes it more planted.\
    The part I struggled with initially was the stick transition at 170. Just ease it forward smoothly but deliberately, don't slam it forward.

    Blue skies and tailwinds
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Oct-13-2014 at 04:36.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Thanks for the help Vlerkies, I appreciate it.

    I have two videos of today's attempts. Out of a total of nine attempts so far I've managed to get up four times. One of those was sans my left aileron.

    If you watch the rudder pedals you'll see how little input I'm making, yet that tiny deflection sends the plane wildly off-course. You'll also see that the plane is trying to lift off with its tail still down at around 170kmh, which is when I'm supposed to be centering the stick just to bring the tail up BEFORE the plane should be lifting off (?).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k84v...ature=youtu.be

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcZM...ature=youtu.be

    It all seems to go pear-shaped very easily. I would have thought a considerable amount of rudder would be required to move the plane off its course while running down the runway. Or at least have its tail-wheel off the ground?

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Whereas in this one I let the tail come up a lot sooner:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzqj...ature=youtu.be

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.



    Hehe
    Looks like you are chasing the nose yaw with the rudder a bit.

    Its about anticipating the torque and countering with the rudder. Next time out see at what speed she starts to pull left, then anticipate that with a fraction right rudder before it happens.
    Its going pear shaped before you get close to 170
    I found it a bit easier getting the Dora moving slightly forward on the runway first, positioning the nose ever so slightly to the right then while its still moving powering the throttle forward for TO.

    Bring up the control indicator as well for now to give you a visual of the actual inputs. think its rghtCntrl +Enter.
    It may be more rudder than you think.

    I'm sure others have their own techniques. I am no Dora expert, not by a long shot however I went through this same frustrating process of getting a feel for the take off.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Yeah, I think it'll be a case of getting used to the feel. I still have the occasional mishap in CloD and that one's far easier than this Dora. I still think they have it wrong, it's like the rudder is controlling steerable wheels with a 10:1 ratio. I recall seeing an old USAAF training film where a Jug pilot had to kick in full rudder to get a ground-loop. In the Dora I reckon 1cm of boot will do it.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    It's tricky for sure.
    Do you have a curve in the axis for the rudder? It will help.

    If you havent seen it this is the original vid Wags put out before release.
    Note the rudder input on the control indicator.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    No, zero curves. I don't like them. If a sim is modelled correctly (and the hardware stick isn't a POS) a 1:1 ratio should naturally exist. I get the correct ratio with my Warthog, going by the pedals and movement of rudder.

    It looks like Wags has the exact same experience as me, just he's far more adept at keeping it all on the reservation. Practice, practice and more practice. I tell you what though, if that's how a real one is to take off in my dream of flying a real one can go take a flying leap by itself.

    I've just done three dogfights with the P51 (AI). Looks like yesterday was beginner's luck. I took hits in the first, then flew into the ground; wing shot off in the second and bailed (got hits on him though); engine-failure in the third and force-landed on a road (got hits on him again). I hope they're planning on doing work with crashes/forced-landings etc, there's too much insta-boom. I got down with my wheels out but bounced about a bit and broke stuff, but instead of a sliding wreck coming to a halt in a cloud of dust I went boom. And the boom stops dead, no wreckage flying forward. It's the little details that count and DCS seems short on a lot of them. Way too many MS-CFS moments for comfort.

    Hit-sounds and decals are nice though, though the number of decals don't match the number of hit-sounds. I took what I thought was a handful of hits, looked out my window and both wings were colanders. Lol. Again, small details but they matter (to me at least). CloD sets the benchmark, DCS please take note.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    and War Thunder beats them all for eye candy, but you wont catch me dead flying (mousing) that. Just saying is all.
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Oct-13-2014 at 09:46.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Ah, War Thunder terrain...how do they do that?!

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Well I suppose when the pc doesnt have much to do except render eye candy its easy.

    If it makes you feel better, I just fired up the Dora when I got home after not flying it for ages and binned a whole bunch on take off bar the last one hehe
    Just requires some practice.

    I'm a big dcs fanboy and have most of the modules but don't have time to fly them much anymore.

    I still prefer CoD for my WW2 action and I love it and fly it almost daily. After having the whole IL2 series from the start CoD was such a disappointment on release (as many experienced) it went into a box in the garage for years, that's when I got stuck into DCS stuff.

    By chance I stumbled on TF stuff mid last year and gave it a whirl again and was hooked. Thanks TF for destroying my social life

    DCS I have issues with a number of things. The typical ones are the old engine (roll on edge) and its poor use of the cpu.
    Netcode is also not great and cant support the numbers that well. CoD way ahead there.
    What compounds that for me is all the servers are a long way away and it makes the game sketchy online when in excess of 10 players with my connection.

    Most of my DCS time is A-10C which I flew solidly for 2 years or so with mates in co-op missions online. Simply an unbeatable experience and by far the best sim I have ever flown personally. I still probably only know/knew about 60% of the airframes capability/systems but even then it was a formidable ground pounder.
    The Huey also bloody fantastic, and great also just to fly around.

    I'm hoping Edge fixes a lot of things, but it probably wont so wil just have to wait and see.
    Looking forward to the 109 and the P47.
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    If they're serious about producing a benchmark WW2 sim, to go along with their benchmark a/c functionality, they'll have to fix all the shonky stuff, otherwise few will buy it. I certainly won't be buying anymore of their planes if they don't. Having this Dora in the environment it's in and with the current effects is a bit like having a Porsche with nowhere to drive it but in the garden.

    My last two take-offs were nigh-on perfect. It was slavishly following the tutorials that seems to have been the culprit; that and paying too much attention to the RPM and air-speed instruments. Most landings have been a breeze so far.

    CloD needs the next generation of planes (Me109Fs, Fw190, MkV Spitfires etc) but I doubt we'll see those for years, if ever. So DCS needs to step up to the plate, big time (mid-war and late-war). I think that'll be years too, though. If ever. BoS was the last great hope for a latest-gen all-encompassing series but that's been squandered on arcade dreck. So it's CloD BoB for the foreseeable future. State of the art goodness but trapped in time.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    I dont play flight sims for pretty graphics. DCS is the highest fidelity warbird simulator available on the PC. Other things like maps will come eventually.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
    I dont play flight sims for pretty graphics. DCS is the highest fidelity warbird simulator available on the PC. Other things like maps will come eventually.
    I kind of always assume it can only be for what's on the screen, though system complexity and sounds play a very important part as well. Visual and aural pleasure. I can grasp the idea of enjoying a poorly drawn/painted picture if there's some kind of intellectual message in it, but a video game? The trend has always been towards more photo-realistic imagery, and the fidelity of systems behind the curtain to go with it. DCS certainly has the systems, on a par with CloD's, or so I understand, but if the imagery doesn't complement those systems...? To try and put it thus...if an engine has a water radiator, glycol tank, oil tank and fuel system modelled but hits only ever produce a stream of white smoke...is there graphical pleasure to be had from that? Maxed out? Or does it leave one feeling un-satisfied? Isn't that why BoS' hit-box DM doesn't make the nut? It's the other way around of course, all graphics but no underlying systems. It looks and feels bogus.

    If DCS' systems' fidelity is as good as CloD's it deserves graphics of CloD's quality too, in my opinion. Otherwise it's doing itself a grave injustice.

    TF CloD really does have it all, it's one of the very few games I've played where I never fire it up and think there's something lacking in the general totality of the experience. I know everything is there under the hood and everything going into my eyes and ears complements that knowledge. The only downside is knowing it's always going to be frozen in time (BoB)...there will never be MOAR! RB2-3D was the same. And Skyrim.

    DCS may pull it out of the hat but if it does I think it will takes y..e..a..r..s if EDGE doesn't land running. I'm looking forward to seeing what it comes up with though.

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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by II/JG3~Siggi View Post
    I can grasp the idea of enjoying a poorly drawn/painted picture if there's some kind of intellectual message in it, but a video game? The trend has always been towards more photo-realistic imagery, and the fidelity of systems behind the curtain to go with it.
    Heh, if most people thought this way then nobody would be playing minecraft But seriously, apart from that, there are games from early 2000s that are not great visually now but nothing better has been produced since then. For example Fallout or Planescape:Torment are the pinacle of RPG design and the whole genre has been going downhill since then. The trend was indeed to get better and better graphics but unfortunately the other stuff, like complexity, gameplay etc. actually devolved. The games are getting prettier and more shiny but simpler and simpler.

    Another example are strategy or tactical games genre, best of which often come with very poor graphics. Check out War in the Pacific Admiral's edition for example. A hex based game, with prety poor graphics but it's actually the best Pacific theatre strategy avalible, with an amazing amount of detail going on under the hood, unseen in pretty much any other similar game. Command Modern Air Naval Operations looks like old Harpoon games with only Nato symbols for ships and planes yet it's a strategy bordering on a simulation, with a gigantic amount of detail and database, used also by the military for training.

    If you want an example specifically from the sim genre, then Falcon BMS doesn't have the best graphics, effects or damage visualisation but is still the best F16 sim on the market and a very good quality sim in general. Or Steel Beasts, the best tank sim around, the graphics are not the best but it's a very high fidelity tank sim and very enjoyable as a game as well.

    Anyway, to finish the rant, you have the right of course to think otherwise, but often the best games around are the ones where graphics were not the main concern and I think you miss out a lot on them if you are so sensitive to bad graphics...

  28. #28
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    I agree with a lot of that Endy. My sons enjoys the heck out of Minecraft, as much as CoD (the FPS game). I've played HoI to death, though I come from Panzer Blitz so there's history there. But as much as I enjoyed RB2-3D and consider it the best combat flight sim yet created, I couldn't play it now. Ditto Over Flanders Field. You have it spot-on with the trend being towards pretty graphics at the expense of under-the-hood quality but ArmA confounds that as one rare example. And CloD of course. I have no idea about the financial status of the company that owns DCS but I see a chance there for them to at least match CloD if they get the graphics right. But does DCS even have a physics engine related to broken planes? I've been getting the impression that a lot of the damage graphics, if not all of them, are scripted events. Every time I bend a plane on take-off I could swear the exact same pieces of planes show up in the exact same places following the exact same trajectories. Ditto planes I shoot down. Can't quite put my finger on it but maybe real pieces obeying the same laws of virtual physics aka CloD aren't there? If that's the case DCS has a bigger 'problem' than only graphics. It'll remain popular but only at a 'niche within a niche' level. BoS is finding that out right now, though in reverse (pretty graphics but very little under the hood). Unlike with FPS it would appear hard-core simmers, broadly speaking, demand parity in all the components. Which is a double-edged sword...we have lots of money to spend on the genre but there aren't enough of us to sustain a dedicated hard-core sim company.

    A lot of the issues become clearly 'visible' only in long retrospect. These are interesting times but the trend appears to be describing a downwards trajectory. Ideally the Team Fusion guys would find the means and ability to take CloD forward into mid and late war scenarios but I suspect that's a pipe-dream. Unfortunately I suspect the same will prove true of DCS. The fact they think a map for a jet is of more importance than one for WW2 tells its own story. Especially when one considers the injection of cash they benefited from with the WW2 Kick-starter. The DCS graphics-engine is probably adequate for BVR jet combat which is why they might not see any need to improve it for whites-of-the-eyes WW2 malarkey.

    In summary: we're probably stuffed.
    Last edited by II/JG3~Siggi; Oct-14-2014 at 05:45.

  29. #29
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    I understand your worries but I think we can be optimistic for the future. The number of subsystems that can get damaged is pretty amazing, it's just that the visual model doesn't correspond with it well as you already noticed. However, they already said that visual DM for WWII planes will be looked at. Under the hood the DM is fine right now and you can see it easily in post mission damage reports. I believe there are more subsystems that can get damaged than Clod, just the visual damage model can't keep up until they change it but that will hopefully come as well.

    Physics relating to broken planes are also good and are definately not scripted. You can crash in various ways and I'm definately not getting the insta boom you're talking about while belly landing for example Moreover, the stuff you'd expect is also there, like damage to certain parts, wheels etc. if you touchdown a bit too hard for example. The planes have bit more tendencies to explode than Clod planes but that depends on speed, angle, etc.

    By the way, I think a part of your impressions may come from shooting the AI, which has a bit simplified damage model and can take more punishment, finally ending with a boom or lost wing. Damage model for player planes is much more sophisticated and you can check that online.

  30. #30
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    Re: Dora: serious control hardware issues.

    Is it possible to shoot up a plane such that one or both of its wheels drop? That's a touch-stone for me since CloD. Is there red-out on the pilot for wounds?
    Last edited by II/JG3~Siggi; Oct-14-2014 at 06:23.

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