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Thread: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

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    1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Last edited by ATAG_Snapper; Apr-24-2012 at 08:51.

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    Combat pilot Recoilfx's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Looks like Spit Ia is still slower than 109. I wonder if they'll post Spit IIa.

  3. #3
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    They've made an already nerfed Ia worse below 18,000ft?

    I'm assuming the 'Hurri Ia' is the Rotol Hurri, which looks close but still worse than RL.

    Very strange that they don't have a graph for the IIa.


    This is what I posted at 1C

    'These graphs only show performance from 3000m and up, whereas the previous graphs showed performance from 0m and up.

    It's very interesting to note that between 3000 and 5000m, the patched 109E4 performs better than RL, whereas both the Rotol Hurri and the MkIa Spitfire perform worse than RL at these altitudes.

    Please can we see graphs for the Spits and Hurris from 0m and up, so we can make a true comparison?

    Many Thanks.'

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Recoilfx View Post
    Looks like Spit Ia is still slower than 109. I wonder if they'll post Spit IIa.
    Yeah. What I was hoping was that they'd bring the 109's up in speed to slightly exceed the level speed of the current IIa, leave the IIa and Rotol alone, and bring the Ia to *about* 20 mph shy of the IIa. Overall handling performance of each aircraft could then be tweaked to reflect their historical strengths and weaknesses.

    The Ia's level speed isn't even shown below 3000 meters. Its current 240 mph maximum at sea level is about 40 mph shy of historical. Watching a co-alt/co-energy 110 easily recede into the distance while flying a Ia just doesn't seem right, but clearly the devs see it differently.

    We'll see how the patch sorts it all out.

  5. #5
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I just don't believe it.

    See here. Post #24

    http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=31450&page=3

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I wish I could see 1c Forums here at work...:angry:

    or maybe I don't ... I wouldn't get any work done...
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post
    I just don't believe it.

    See here. Post #24

    http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=31450&page=3
    And here's my response:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BlackSix
    We don't have official flight tests for Spits and Hurris between 0 and 3000m.

    Snapper replies:

    Thanks, Black Six. At last we finally know why the Spitfire Ia's top speed at sea level is 240 mph. The slope of the curve was simply applied to the 0 - 3000 m gap in information, so 0 feet = 240 mph. Mystery solved.

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    Combat pilot Recoilfx's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Going by the slopes, the Spit Ia will probably yield around 415 kmh, which is higher than the current 386 kmh

    But yeah, still slower... For game play purposes, we now need to see Spit IIa.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I believe it was GRAthos who initially stated, and I concur, that we will see the Spit IIa unleashed in unlimited quantities post patch. They're going to neuter it and if the current conversation is accurate the Spit Ia will remain the same...

    There is no way a 110, co-energy with the Spit Ia, should be able to pull away and run for home so easily as is the case today. The 110 was removed from the Battle for a reason...it could not compete against Hurri's and Spits. Yet in the 1C world of CloD it not only competes, it excels. :shocked: :angry: :angrymob:

    I know, such blasphemous talk :blush!:

    1C is not in the business of historical accuracy, they're in the business of satisfying the paying customer base. It's been the 3rd party "modder" who's made the series most accurate. Why should CloD be any different?


    Just my ever so humble opinion.

    ~S~

    Deacon
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I obviously cannot read or interpret graphs! What I see is a MK1a some 20Km/hr slower up to 6000m than what we currently have.

    It all seems very controversial to me and, like many others, wait with baited breath regards the Spit 2a.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I can see this as the Red reaction to FM's post patch:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-_sABor77E
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

  12. #12
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by EvangelusE View Post
    I obviously cannot read or interpret graphs! What I see is a MK1a some 20Km/hr slower up to 6000m than what we currently have.
    Yep, that's how I read it too mate, see post above. I keep on biting my tongue though, and will wait to see what happens with the patch.

    I'd like to see graphs for all a/c from 0ft and up, too.

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post
    Yep, that's how I read it too mate, see post above. I keep on biting my tongue though, and will wait to see what happens with the patch.

    I'd like to see graphs for all a/c from 0ft and up, too.
    Well, I said what I had to say over there, but I didn't speculate on their motivations -- I think Deacon makes a fair point in that regard. Charts, charts, and more charts. :pouting:

    Don't need no stinkin' charts trying to tell me otherwise that something stinks! :bgsmile:

  14. #14
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    This is Luthier's signature at the Sukhoi forum (Google Translate).

    Messershmidt all the chief and commander of the Spitfire

    Says it all, really.

    Bitter? Moi? :angry:

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    Supporting Member Catseye's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    S! Guys,
    My initial thoughts are: "Why wouldn't the devs model the aircraft speed curves as precisely as possible up to 18,000 ft. where most of the action is going to take place in the servers? :pouting: Anything above 18,000 is less important (although it should all be accurate) at this time due to the nature of engagements at lower altitudes.

    In my vue, the RAF are somewhat crippled now up to this altitude and that is not cricket old boy!

    The Hurricane certainly is tweaked closer to performance specs and will require some skill and patience in bomber intercepts.

    They need to pay more attention to the 100 octane issue and 12lb boost that was available in 1940. Waiting until the next theater of operations comes out and then introducing these changes is way too late.

    Chin up lads!


    EDIT: I just went to the Russian forums and they are similarly complaining about the performance charts - with the same questions and complaints on this and the Banana forums.
    Last edited by Catseye; Apr-24-2012 at 13:13.

  16. #16
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Cats, I've already given up on the 100 octane debate, but the performance is still well below 87 octane levels, unless you go over 18,000. Ludicrous.

    We're going to have a situation where the Spits and Hurris can't keep up with the bloody Blenheims, unless you're in a Spit II. And that remains to be seen.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post
    This is Luthier's signature at the Sukhoi forum (Google Translate).

    Messershmidt all the chief and commander of the Spitfire

    Says it all, really.

    Bitter? Moi? :angry:
    Well, the 109 has to be uber... it ruled the skies over Russia for two years. It goes back to the way the -51 was porked in IL-2 1946 :shocked: . It's the same fight that has been going on with 1C since IL-2's inception. There has been more than enough data provided to show proper boost levels, fuel used, and speeds of the Spits. Nothing matters except what the designers at 1C DICTATE, not what was historically accurate anyway.

    Take Snappers recent testing with the a2a series, which has much more accurate flight models. The current Spit Ia in the a2a series performs as well as the CloD Spit IIa. Who's right and who's wrong? I put my money on a2a being more correct and the suits at 1C having to appease the local IL-2 fan base in order to sell. It's about the dollars, not history.

    I usually will take a 1a even if there are IIa's available...not so much anymore. :angry: RELEASE THE KRAKKEN!

    We're going to have a situation where the Spits and Hurris can't keep up with the bloody Blenheims
    Dutch, it's already quite difficult to keep up in a Ia...
    Last edited by ATAG_Deacon; Apr-24-2012 at 13:18.
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Supporting Member Catseye's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post
    Cats, I've already given up on the 100 octane debate, but the performance is still well below 87 octane levels, unless you go over 18,000. Ludicrous.

    We're going to have a situation where the Spits and Hurris can't keep up with the bloody Blenheims, unless you're in a Spit II. And that remains to be seen.
    I agree Dutch.
    I've also given up on the 100 octane issue until the Russian front arrives and they do another tweak or introduce changes they say they haven't time to do now.

    Hopefully, the complaints on all the forums - including the Russian forums about the charts will hit home and they take another look at it. But . . . . my gut tells me they've run out of time and want to get the graphics and launcher issues corrected so they can satisfy a business model and a technical base to proceed with the Russian front and other scenarios to follow.

    Sigh. Carry on Lads.

  19. #19
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Deacon View Post
    Dutch, it's already quite difficult to keep up in a Ia...
    I know Deac, but they've already said that the new Blennie FM is faster at all altitudes than the current one, and they're slowing the fighters down.

    That's even more ridiculous than the situation you pointed out with the 110.

    I despair with the devs, I really do.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post

    I despair with the devs, I really do.


    It's about the dollars, not history.

    The series, outside of 3rd party development, will never be historically accurate. The $ dictates all... :hiding:

    'nuff said.
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

  21. #21
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_Catseye View Post
    EDIT: I just went to the Russian forums and they are similarly complaining about the performance charts - with the same questions and complaints on this and the Banana forums.
    So all the markets for the product are complaining about the performance charts.

    I'm not quite sure where the '$ rules' bit comes in Deac. What possible $ advantage does it give them to do this? Will they sell more copies if the game is blatantly biased toward Blue flyers? Or less copies because Red flyers are sick of being shafted and so stop purchasing?

    Or are you saying that the investors are dictating the FMs to the developers?

    Or that a higher % of customers fly Blue?

    Sorry if this is old debate, I only went online with IL2 about 5 years ago, was offline before that.

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Well, I find myself getting drawn into another "discussion" over at 1C about the Hurricane being "grossly overmodelled" and "compare the charts" etc. If you express your dissatisfaction you're told to "calm down" -- by those who stand to benefit, of course.

    Then it occurs to me: 1C -- The Official Forum. Uh huh. End of discussion right there.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch View Post
    So all the markets for the product are complaining about the performance charts.

    I'm not quite sure where the '$ rules' bit comes in Deac. What possible $ advantage does it give them to do this?
    It's always been this way, bias toward Blues. From the beginning of the IL-2 series. There have always been historical inaccuracies. The most accurate FM's have been the third party modders, why is this so? Who invests more the SIM, ie where is the largest market segment?

    Will they sell more copies if the game is blatantly biased toward Blue flyers? Or less copies because Red flyers are sick of being shafted and so stop purchasing?
    I wish I had an answer for this, I really do. I don't think Red flyers will quite en-mass, we're gluttons. I grew used to it and take great pride when I get kills in "under modeled" aircraft.

    Or are you saying that the investors are dictating the FMs to the developers? Or that a higher % of customers fly Blue?
    We're the investors, just look at where the largest body of players comes from for the answer to that question.

    Sorry if this is old debate, I only went online with IL2 about 5 years ago, was offline before that.
    No worries. The things I've laid out are sure to stick in someone's craw. I've played, I've watched, I've listened, and I read all the forums voraciously...I've heard it all from the "Spit-babies" to "Luft-whiners".

    If the FM's produced by 1C were historical & accurate there would not have been a need to 'mod' the old IL-2 series. I'm sure the people who do the modding would rather be flying and fighting vs. fixing. If it ain't broke it don't need to be fixed.

    Why is it that 1C can't (or won't) produce accurate flight models, even in the face of the entire community asking for them? That is the bigger question. To me it is about the money...the largest segment of the community must be appeased in order to sell more copies, hence:

    Messershmidt all the chief and commander of the Spitfire
    Historical? Accurate? All things being equal the Spit/Hurri combo did a pretty fine job over England...as history shows.

    This is a SIM that is supposed to be based on historical accuracy...not bias as the quote from the HMFIC indicates. (HMFIC = Head MoFo In Charge)

    Everything I've written is just my opinion Dutch but if somebody can please explain why 1C/Maddox Games has always shown Blue bias I would be all ears.

    Actually I need to re-phrase that...if it is Blue/Russian vs. UK/US...anybody remember the initial La-5/La-7/M-185?
    Last edited by ATAG_Deacon; Apr-24-2012 at 14:57.
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Ace 9./JG52 Hans Gruber's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    I don't believe in conspiracies or hidden agendas. What I do believe is that most people are just incompetent at their jobs. This is the case in industry, government, and apparently video game development.

  25. #25
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Deacon View Post
    if somebody can please explain why 1C/Maddox Games has always shown Blue bias I would be all ears.

    Actually I need to re-phrase that...if it is Blue/Russian vs. UK/US...anybody remember the initial La-5/La-7/M-185?
    Yep. Those Las were gorgeous! :Grin:il2fb 2009-12-30 17-00-44-85.jpg

    So come the sequel, we're going to have I-16s, LaGG 3s and Yak 1s outperforming the Spits and Hurris.

    You know, the only reason I started flying Blenheims was because of the crappy Ia FM and the banning of the Spit II. As you know, I keep stalling in the Hurri.

    We'd just better pray that the IIa FM is not too 'nerfed'. But then, nothing else will be worth including in the Brit planest.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits


    So come the sequel, we're going to have I-16s, LaGG 3s and Yak 1s outperforming the Spits and Hurris.

    You know, the only reason I started flying Blenheims was because of the crappy Ia FM and the banning of the Spit II. As you know, I keep stalling in the Hurri.

    We'd just better pray that the IIa FM is not too 'nerfed'. But then, nothing else will be worth including in the Brit planest.
    Again, as GRAthos pointed out two weeks ago, the Spit IIa will have to made available in unlimited numbers. Not historical, but necessary I think. It will be the only way around total Blue dominance, which is still a possibility. :pouting:
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Afraid of opening a can of worms, I have to point this out...

    The 109 curve is also bellow the test data curve.

    I do not see a conspiracy but a problem with the physics engine which only allows the values to be close to real but not exact.

    A physics engine is not some thing easy or simple to do, specially when the programmers have to balance numeric exactitude and CPU usage.

    From my point of view, what matters is the relation of FM between planes. If 109 was 2% faster than the Ia and 1% faster than the IIa, that's what we should be looking at, not that the planes are X mph slower/faster than what the test data.

    Now :angrymob: :runaway::hiding:

  28. #28
    ATAG Member ATAG_Deacon's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    Afraid of opening a can of worms, I have to point this out...

    From my point of view, what matters is the relation of FM between planes. If 109 was 2% faster than the Ia and 1% faster than the IIa, that's what we should be looking at, not that the planes are X mph slower/faster than what the test data.

    ~S~ Colander,

    Way respect your programming knowledge.

    The can of worms wasn't opened by you mate...look over at 1C. I have a basic understanding of what you're saying...however 1-2% values at 300 mph= 3-6 mph differentials. When we're discussing 20-40 mph differentials. Not a small difference.

    Deacon
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    ATAG_Colander's Avatar
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Deacon,

    Sorry, I should have specified that the 1% 2% where just examples not actual numbers.

    I confess I have not done the needed math

  30. #30
    Dutch
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    Re: 1C charts for Hurries and Spits

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    Afraid of opening a can of worms, I have to point this out...

    The 109 curve is also below the test data curve.

    I do not see a conspiracy
    Can duly opened.

    Do you see the 109's performance being reduced at any altitude? In favour of a performance increase at an altitude that the game can't cope with and no-one flies online anyway?

    Nope, thought not.

    Well, I'll just fly around on my own at 20,000ft, smug in the knowledge that no-one can catch me, with nothing happening until my fuel runs out.


    P.S. Forgot to mention that all the German AI bombers will need to come over at 18,000ft+, whereas the English Bomber formations will need to go to France at <18,000, in order to avoid the Blue boys throwing their toys out of the pram once more.

    I'm sure it'll be great fun.
    Last edited by Dutch; Apr-24-2012 at 21:57. Reason: bit pissed off

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