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Thread: Extreme Frustration

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    Student Pilot djdalton's Avatar
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    Extreme Frustration

    The learning curve for this game is obviously very steep.

    After ground looping about 15 Messerschmitts I've decided the instructions for this monstrosity are definitely lacking. There should be a diagram of each airfield and the audacity to place a spawned plane a mile taxi from the best takeoff position is at best questionable. I've lost more planes to taxi and take off accidents than is enjoyable. But the failure to include an individual airfield positioning map to facilitate take off is inexcusable. Obviously pilots would know airfield configurations and to have to study them from a plane one can't exit in the name of "realism" is ludicrous.

    I've tried and I've died, died, died, died. It is definitely not enjoyable.

    Now over the course of my several hours of play, I've actually shot down more aircraft than I've lost. It's 2 to 1 in my favor and my lost plane I nursed back home across the channel missing an elevator.......she seemed to be functioning correctly until I had to nose up upon approach.

    Obviously a head tracking system is essential and understanding how to position for unobstructed views, but when one can't fairly play the game without a head tracking device or having the fields of view distorted from one snap or pan position to another it's debatable as to what kind of game you have. The same concept applies to the failure to include enemy padlock. If you don't have head tracking and you don't have in game padlock you are essentially blind. So in the name of quasi realism obstructed game play is what remains absent head tracking. A little concession to a larger fan base seems to be in order.

    Other peeves, there is no way the 109's takeoff sluggishness can remotely be suggested as realistic. Nor the high altitude nimbleness of the Spitfires. Sure the 109's can out climb, out dive and out race them at most altitudes, but that's the way it was. That high altitude nimbleness of the carburated British planes however stretch credibility.

    Still, it's intriguing and I'm working upon the head tracking, making my own top notch device. Just need the PTC fuses to be sure the motherboard isn't toasted.
    Last edited by djdalton; Feb-16-2015 at 00:04.

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    Team Fusion ♣_Spiritus_♣'s Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Freetrack and a couple other programs out there offer free head tracking if you make your own device for $20 or so. I didn't play with track IR for the first year, instead of using snap view or the other ones, DL a third party program and map your mouse onto a mini-stick like whats on the G940 stick or something similar. Works perfect and just as good as trackIR. You could probably make your own if your stick/throttle doesn't have something out of an old PS3 or xbox controller.

    TF and Buzz are always improving the FMs, they will never be perfect but they are pretty damn good right now. They use actual data from the real aircraft's performance charts to make it as realistic as they can.

    The key to taxiing is slow wins the race. Some maps have spawn points near the runways proper end, some do not. Check here for maps of airfields:

    Try this link for maps and lots of goodies to help with airfield nav, Tom's maps are good:

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=12895

    or

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ead.php?t=8770
    Last edited by ♣_Spiritus_♣; Feb-16-2015 at 01:05.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    do you play on ts? have you flown with a pilot that is capable in a 109? not all players use head tracking... i think kellem uses a mouse....
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    Supporting Member Black034's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Use 15% throttle, rudders and small brake taps.
    Be sure not to overcorrect or you'll fish tail like crazy.

    You need more practice thats all.
    Turncoat #1

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    Supporting Member KansasCS's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Dude, i have trackIR and lose tally on 109s more often than I'd like to admit.
    I've played single player on IL2 and CloD for the better part of a decade, basically since pacific fighters.
    But the challenge i face online in this game dwarf all that was before.
    I second that which was mentioned before, gentle movements across the airfields with minimum throttle, zigzagging your way to the Runway. Also, you'll know your way around airfields once you've spawned on them several times.
    Concerning the nimbleness of the spits:
    The 100octane versions do perform better at high altitudes. And the 109s don't, because their superchargers lose pressure in thin air, rendering them a little less powerful. Also, look at those petty fins the 109 calls wings. Of course dumbowinged spitfire is going to handle thin air better. At least that's my theory.

    About the sluggishness. They were in fact sluggish on the ground.

    "The small rudder of the Bf 109 was relatively ineffective at controlling the strong swing created by the powerful slipstream of the propeller during the early portion of the takeoff roll, and this sideways drift created disproportionate loads on the wheel opposite to the swing. If the forces imposed were large enough, the pivot point broke and the landing gear leg would collapse outward into its bay.[18] Experienced pilots reported that the swing was easy to control, but some of the less-experienced pilots lost fighters on takeoff.[19]"

    Be glad You're problems are only on groundlevel so far. Constantly being on the recieving end in a dogfight can be just as frustrating, if not more so.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Track IR or any headtracking software is not obligatory.
    Check DUI´s videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKj...9rV9McYSHBFPrA) for proof.
    He has better situational awareness than much guys who use track ir.

    Ground looping with the 109 happened to all of us after TF 4.3 which forced everyone to exercise ground handling.
    After 1-2 days we got used to it.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Lol, I still groundloop in the 109. You've got to remember that it was one of the most infuriatingly difficult planes to control on the ground in real life, too. If anything, CloD's ground handling in the 109 is a bit too generous. The rudder seems to have more authority than it should for a plane taxying very slowly with minimum prop-wash, but that goes for basically all the planes in the game to be fair. The K-4 in DCS is pretty much the real McCoy in this regard. I still can't land it without dragging a wing along the tarmac.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Regarding the ground loop tendencies of the 109's, this was a function of the undercarriage design.

    Quote Originally Posted by djdalton View Post
    Other peeves, there is no way the 109's takeoff sluggishness can remotely be suggested as realistic. Nor the high altitude nimbleness of the Spitfires.
    Are you using manual prop pitch during takeoff with the pitch set to 12:00? You should have no problem with 'sluggishness' if you are... if you are not, you will have a problem.

    Regarding high altitude performance.... the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's will out perform, (climb/speed) the Spitfire Mk IA 100 octane up to 9000 meters, if you are flying the aircraft correctly. Against the Spit IIA, you will have a problem... as was the case historically. With the 109E-4N, you regain the advantage, except at extremely high altitudes. For all the 109's, turn performance with the short wingspan, square wingtip, high wingloading of the type becomes more problematic at high alts with the thin atmosphere... the Spitfire on the other hand has an advantage in turn performance with its low wingloading, elliptical wing design, wide wingspan and pointed wingtips.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Welcome to the community and forums djdalton....~S~

    Sorry I didn't hit you with my 'Welcome' post sooner bud...



    I feel your frustration buddy but stick with it...We have ALL been there...Before I flew this sim I had flown full real on IL2 1946 for only minutes opting for wonderwoman view and padlock servers in Hyperlobby......I am still a member of the FS admin squad there...So for me it was like earning to fly again...I'd even bought TrackIR for the original IL2 series but shelved it until CLOD..I haven't looked back since (pun intended)

    All I can tell you is that this sim does take a while to get used to but as with anything you try long enough it becomes second nature...Imagine how you were when you first tried a flight sim at the beginning...thats what it felt like for me when I first flew CLOD 2 years ago....then after a week or so of being bullied by every enemy I came into contact with I suddenly got a kill....then I started to fly defensively and was able to get out f tricky situations on my own...Then it started to gel....Now I am not bad and how this sim is rewarding you'll never know unless you put the time in...but it still blows me away and fills me with utter excitement everytime I'm starting my engine...It is totally thrilling

    As for TrackIR...You don't need it.....Some of our most competitive veteran players in the online server use only the hat switch....What TrackIR (or any homemade headtracker) will give you is immersion....thats all....

    As for your questions and opinions of flight characteristics...well we all came to this forums with our own opinions from anecdotes, books, biographies, articles, first hand accounts and such...If you troll these forums you will find hundreds of posts made by new players and vets who have read this stuff and expect the aircraft here to perform in a certain way...ALL are different...and they can't all be right....We also know that pilots on both sides believed that their aircraft was superior....so again we see conflict....The way you get around these differences is to look at testing information from the time, graphs from the time and any documentation that was taken by way of flying these aircraft under test conditions..Thats the way to the truth.....As you may know the TeamFusion boffins who make all our lovely patches are responsible for what those aircraft do ingame....They have a whole lot more information than we do including tests and graphs of performance from the time all of which are taken into consideration...and they have spent hundreds of hours trying to replicate the FMs of the era....They review anything that we as a community find that they don't already have and so the FMs have been gently tweaked until we have what we have today....and so it is for all this that I can say I am 100% convinced that the FMs in CLOD are the closest to reality in 1940 that one could get in a PC flight sim....There is a big chance that they may even be spot on the money...I wouldn't at all be suprised...So forget about the FMs and rest assured you are in good hands...

    Anyway...

    Checkout the 'Beginners Guide'...for info and tips...It should save you a heap of time in getting up to scratch.....and its a really fun learning curve anyway..

    Beginners Guide Link Here

    Also try youtube for startup procedures on all the aircraft

    Any questions then you've come to the right place....

    Good to have you with us buddy...and remember its all about the Fun!!!

    ...Lew...
    Last edited by ATAG_Lewis; Feb-16-2015 at 19:25.
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post

    Regarding high altitude performance.... the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's will out perform, (climb/speed) the Spitfire Mk IA 100 octane up to 9000 meters, <snip> as was the case historically.
    Climb speed or climb and speed? Could you please confirm which? thanks.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Quote Originally Posted by djdalton View Post

    Other peeves, there is no way the 109's takeoff sluggishness can remotely be suggested as realistic. Nor the high altitude nimbleness of the Spitfires. Sure the 109's can out climb, out dive and out race them at most altitudes, but that's the way it was. That high altitude nimbleness of the carburated British planes however stretch credibility.
    You've noticed! Watch out for 100 oct Hurri's up high too. They will fly circles round you up high where they have no business doing so. Maybe 5.0
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Ziegler View Post
    You've noticed! Watch out for 100 oct Hurri's up high too. They will fly circles round you up high where they have no business doing so. Maybe 5.0
    Solution
    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post


    I have also not factored in the fact the DB601 engines were cleared for higher rpms at altitudes over 6000 meters, for the DB601A and Aa, they were allowed 2600 rpm and the N models were allowed 2800 rpm. This is going to provide additional horsepower and add to the advantage they already hold.
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Hello:
    I'm hesitant about giving any opinion. However, in this case I thought I would have to put in my 3 cents worth.

    Yes the game does have a learning curve to it but also the main thing that really "gets to" the new pilots is the frustration factor of crashing and usually dieing (esp when attacked) before they really get to do any kind of flying and shooting at the "bad guy". I do know exactly what you are going through, as does everyone here that is on-line. I have crashed so many planes I lost count (its on the STATS pages lol) and have "died" many times thorough crashing and getting shot down. But with alot of help from those on-line and practice and "patience" I manage to land most of the time even after being attacked and "shot-all-to-hell".

    Everything in the game is a learning experience along with trail and error, this simply means it's going to take a lil' time to become proficient and takeoff and landings and, of course, combat. But don't lose hope because that frustration factor will certainly always be there chewing on your six.

    The 109s (all models) are squirrely has hell (wind direction), they take almost a gentle touch to get them airborne and if your AOA is to steep, you stall and crash. And yeah they ground loop very easy too. >>>Put your brake on throttle up to max and the release the brake, it will respond to light touches on the rudder the bring up your landing gear as soon as you lift off, bring the nose down and speed up past the stall speed and your off in the blue.

    Check out the videos here in the forum and on youtube, there are many very good vids for instruction, combat tactics, engine management, bombing, startups and landings

    The frustration factor will always be there, and there are many pilots online that will teach and show you "the ropes". I hope that this helped you.

    See you on-line

    von Webber on Luftwaffe side
    Last edited by PhilipWebb; Mar-05-2015 at 13:44.

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Ziegler View Post
    You've noticed! Watch out for 100 oct Hurri's up high too. They will fly circles round you up high where they have no business doing so. Maybe 5.0
    There's an easy solution for that that worked for me:

    I just shoot them down

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    Veteran Combat pilot 5./JG26_Peete's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Make a key for ground chocks. .... set them wen you are facing West.!
    Set prop pitch manual at 12 clock.
    Easy trotle up gife a bit right feet. Push the chocks key.. Of you go.. litle flap helps to to geth faster of the ground.!!!! We all had this experience... me to.. german planes are harder to fly then English.. thats because the English are sissies haha.. good luck cu on team speak! !!! We help you there
    Last edited by 5./JG26_Peete; Feb-18-2015 at 12:38.

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    Supporting Member SorcererDave's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    I find the 109 easier to fly than the Spitfire these days, but maybe that's just me...

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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    Salute and Welcome DJ!

    We've all been there, so just keep at it! You'll launch one day and find that everything "clicked" and your knocking planes out of the air as fast as you pull the trigger. Only to spawn in the following day to find the things you did the day before gets your ass handed to you. It's that element in this game that keeps most of us coming back. You will will learn, and you will adapt but it does take time.

    I would caution you on one thing; "zoom" and "sustained climb" are 2 different things. Although the 109 will out climb the Spit or hurri, it will not out zoom them. Most of your online survival will depend on knowing where the fine line between "zoom" and "sustained climb" lies.

    Hang in there, it gets better,
    Gaidin

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    Veteran Combat pilot 5./JG26_Peete's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    It is also that a slow videocart courses a slow response on youre rudder controle.! It was a whole lot beter when I bought a new pc and big video cart.. !! Saluut Peete.

  24. #19
    Student Pilot djdalton's Avatar
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    Re: Extreme Frustration

    In one post I wanted to reply to all the kind members who offered to help me. Going forward, I'll take up the technical issues I'm having in the applicable forum.

    I'm up to 4 kills with 2 planes and lives lost in combat. I wanted to comment on the last defeat. I listen in on TeamSpeak but find myself flying alone so I have to be vigilant with my situation awareness. I found myself flying the 109 E4/N and looking to bounce a tassel of lower Spitfires, I instead found myself bounced by two Spitfire IIa's with excellent altitude and energy. (I know they were IIa's because I've learned to run Track .trk videos and review them.) Standard evasion technique was to nose for the deck with water and oil radiators partially closed down. I use the controls illustration in an Information Window and am never entirely sure how closed I have my Water Radiator because the illustration doesn't change. The IIa's chased me in a staggered formation. The leader dead on my six, his wing offset and trailing the leader. I felt if I spiral climbed to the left the offset trailer would be able to climb into my turn for gun lead. If I spiral climbed to the right the trailer would have even better angles to again acquire gun lead, so I ran. Eventually they ran me down. I was quite surprised, because it was the first time I couldn't outrun a Spitfire. I believe I made a mistake somewhere. Maybe it was Radiator settings. Next time I'll likely pick my spot to sustain climb.

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Spiritus_Mortem (US-S SM) View Post
    Freetrack and a couple other programs out there offer free head tracking if you make your own device for $20 or so. I didn't play with track IR for the first year, instead of using snap view or the other ones, DL a third party program and map your mouse onto a mini-stick like whats on the G940 stick or something similar. Works perfect and just as good as trackIR. You could probably make your own if your stick/throttle doesn't have something out of an old PS3 or xbox controller.

    TF and Buzz are always improving the FMs, they will never be perfect but they are pretty damn good right now. They use actual data from the real aircraft's performance charts to make it as realistic as they can.

    The key to taxiing is slow wins the race. Some maps have spawn points near the runways proper end, some do not. Check here for maps of airfields:

    Try this link for maps and lots of goodies to help with airfield nav, Tom's maps are good:

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=12895

    or

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ead.php?t=8770
    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Saipan View Post
    do you play on ts? have you flown with a pilot that is capable in a 109? not all players use head tracking... i think kellem uses a mouse....
    Quote Originally Posted by Black034 View Post
    Use 15% throttle, rudders and small brake taps.
    Be sure not to overcorrect or you'll fish tail like crazy.

    You need more practice thats all.
    Thank you sir, I am building a nice Freetrack Clip. I had it 3d printed. Just waiting for the PTC resettable fuses and the 5volt DC adapters.

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_sKylon View Post
    Track IR or any headtracking software is not obligatory.
    Check DUI´s videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKj...9rV9McYSHBFPrA) for proof.
    He has better situational awareness than much guys who use track ir.

    Ground looping with the 109 happened to all of us after TF 4.3 which forced everyone to exercise ground handling.
    After 1-2 days we got used to it.
    I've gotten better by taxiing slowly, turning my ground graphics up to very detailed, (keeps me out of ponds), using left or right brake to turn while taxiing and being patient. Thank you, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Regarding the ground loop tendencies of the 109's, this was a function of the undercarriage design.

    Are you using manual prop pitch during takeoff with the pitch set to 12:00? You should have no problem with 'sluggishness' if you are... if you are not, you will have a problem.

    Regarding high altitude performance.... the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's will out perform, (climb/speed) the Spitfire Mk IA 100 octane up to 9000 meters, if you are flying the aircraft correctly. Against the Spit IIA, you will have a problem... as was the case historically. With the 109E-4N, you regain the advantage, except at extremely high altitudes. For all the 109's, turn performance with the short wingspan, square wingtip, high wingloading of the type becomes more problematic at high alts with the thin atmosphere... the Spitfire on the other hand has an advantage in turn performance with its low wingloading, elliptical wing design, wide wingspan and pointed wingtips.
    I know my prop pitch, but thank you for the kind support. The IIa's ran me down low after I gained separation upon them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lewis View Post
    Welcome to the community and forums djdalton....~S~

    Sorry I didn't hit you with my 'Welcome' post sooner bud...

    I feel your frustration buddy but stick with it...We have ALL been there...Before I flew this sim I had flown full real on IL2 1946 for only minutes opting for wonderwoman view and padlock servers in Hyperlobby......I am still a member of the FS admin squad there...So for me it was like earning to fly again...I'd even bought TrackIR for the original IL2 series but shelved it until CLOD..I haven't looked back since (pun intended)

    All I can tell you is that this sim does take a while to get used to but as with anything you try long enough it becomes second nature...Imagine how you were when you first tried a flight sim at the beginning...thats what it felt like for me when I first flew CLOD 2 years ago....then after a week or so of being bullied by every enemy I came into contact with I suddenly got a kill....then I started to fly defensively and was able to get out f tricky situations on my own...Then it started to gel....Now I am not bad and how this sim is rewarding you'll never know unless you put the time in...but it still blows me away and fills me with utter excitement everytime I'm starting my engine...It is totally thrilling

    As for TrackIR...You don't need it.....Some of our most competitive veteran players in the online server use only the hat switch....What TrackIR (or any homemade headtracker) will give you is immersion....thats all....

    As for your questions and opinions of flight characteristics...well we all came to this forums with our own opinions from anecdotes, books, biographies, articles, first hand accounts and such...If you troll these forums you will find hundreds of posts made by new players and vets who have read this stuff and expect the aircraft here to perform in a certain way...ALL are different...and they can't all be right....We also know that pilots on both sides believed that their aircraft was superior....so again we see conflict....The way you get around these differences is to look at testing information from the time, graphs from the time and any documentation that was taken by way of flying these aircraft under test conditions..Thats the way to the truth.....As you may know the TeamFusion boffins who make all our lovely patches are responsible for what those aircraft do ingame....They have a whole lot more information than we do including tests and graphs of performance from the time all of which are taken into consideration...and they have spent hundreds of hours trying to replicate the FMs of the era....They review anything that we as a community find that they don't already have and so the FMs have been gently tweaked until we have what we have today....and so it is for all this that I can say I am 100% convinced that the FMs in CLOD are the closest to reality in 1940 that one could get in a PC flight sim....There is a big chance that they may even be spot on the money...I wouldn't at all be suprised...So forget about the FMs and rest assured you are in good hands...

    Anyway...

    Checkout the 'Beginners Guide'...for info and tips...It should save you a heap of time in getting up to scratch.....and its a really fun learning curve anyway..

    Beginners Guide Link Here

    Also try youtube for startup procedures on all the aircraft

    Any questions then you've come to the right place....

    Good to have you with us buddy...and remember its all about the Fun!!!

    ...Lew...
    Lew, I read your book. You sir are phenomenal in trying to assist newbies. I am already indebted to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5./JG26_Peete View Post
    Make a key for ground chocks. .... set them wen you are facing West.!
    Set prop pitch manual at 12 clock.
    Easy trotle up gife a bit right feet. Push the chocks key.. Of you go.. litle flap helps to to geth faster of the ground.!!!! We all had this experience... me to.. german planes are harder to fly then English.. thats because the English are sissies haha.. good luck cu on team speak! !!! We help you there
    I'll try a little flap on the takeoff and just added Ground Chocks. Thank You sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by JG27-Gaidin View Post
    Salute and Welcome DJ!

    We've all been there, so just keep at it! You'll launch one day and find that everything "clicked" and your knocking planes out of the air as fast as you pull the trigger. Only to spawn in the following day to find the things you did the day before gets your ass handed to you. It's that element in this game that keeps most of us coming back. You will will learn, and you will adapt but it does take time.

    I would caution you on one thing; "zoom" and "sustained climb" are 2 different things. Although the 109 will out climb the Spit or hurri, it will not out zoom them. Most of your online survival will depend on knowing where the fine line between "zoom" and "sustained climb" lies.

    Hang in there, it gets better,
    Gaidin
    I've listened in to your sorties a few times Gaiden and though I tried to navigate to them I've been at the other end of the map. I'm an old hand at Fighter Ace and exclusively flew the 109 and then the 190, the latter of which was a load to fly until I learned a few tricks. It was a Butcher Bird though. Out zooming has not been my problem I know a few tricks with the zoom. Thank you for your advice sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5./JG26_Peete View Post
    It is also that a slow videocart courses a slow response on youre rudder controle.! It was a whole lot beter when I bought a new pc and big video cart.. !! Saluut Peete.
    I've attached my PC specs. Recently the game has been crashing on me. Finally I reloaded the graphics driver that came with my Vid Card and all is now good. My card wasn't handling the latest Nvidia release, but the optics with the card are quite good. Thank You sir.
    Windows 8.1 64bit
    Core i7 - 4790, 4.0 GHz
    EVGA GTX 660, 3 GB
    16 GB RAM, Kingston HyperX Fury
    ASRock Fatal1ty Z97X Killer

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