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Thread: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

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    Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    I'm unable to determine how the pilot of WWII RAF Fighters activated the oxygen mask-microphone to speak on the radio. I assume that there's a mic switch somewhere, but I can't find it referenced anywhere. Please include a source for your answer if you can find one.
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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    We were actually discussing that question on TS a little while ago. I have no idea, maybe I'll watch
    The Battle of Britain again to see how they did it.

    Sorry of little help at the moment.
    Celer, Silens, Mortalis

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    I believe they used a tongue-hold down switch inside their mask....which explains why the Brits sounded like they had a mouthful of plums over the R/T.


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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    I believe they used a tongue-hold down switch inside their mask....which explains why the Brits sounded like they had a mouthful of plums over the R/T.


    See TRD.9D control lever
    http://spitfirespares.co.uk/radio.html


    image hosting free


    free screenshot software

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/18074...1238342238/R-T
    Last edited by 1lokos; Feb-16-2015 at 18:19.

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Fidget View Post
    I'm unable to determine how the pilot of WWII RAF Fighters activated the oxygen mask-microphone to speak on the radio. I assume that there's a mic switch somewhere, but I can't find it referenced anywhere. Please include a source for your answer if you can find one.
    D Type Oxygen Mask - Battle of Britain period.
    D Type.jpg

    G Type Oxygen Mask - Mid War period.
    G Type.jpg


    Click pics for larger view.

    ~S~

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Didnt they have a transmission button on the chest/shoulder? I might remember wrong but in Johnnie johnson book he mentions someone have it on and sings while they climb over England.
    Cheers N8 and Master Lewis

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=ZbT...ed=0CCcQ6AEwBA

    Here is it ... its on all the time ... i think.

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    This link seems to be very knowledgeable on the subject.

    http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=29366&page=3

    Like most emerging technologies, these radios had different features and ranges, making them more or less suitable for air to air or air to ground communications. During the Battle of Britain, it seems that the mic switch was located on the mask as depicted above by Marco. (Thank you)

    While the voice operated set (Thanks, 1lokos) was being introduced around that time, it SOUNDS TO ME like the mechanical mask switch was more widely used.

    For controller setup in CLoD, I guess we can take our pick because either left or right hand could operate the mic switch.

    Thanks to everyone for getting involved with this rather esoteric question.
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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Fidget View Post
    While the voice operated set (Thanks, 1lokos) was being introduced around that time, it SOUNDS TO ME like the mechanical mask switch was more widely used.
    The radio that allow voice operated microphone is the TR.1133 (VHF) - probable fit on Spit later on B of B:



    BTW - The operation of this radio is wrong modeled in DCS Spitfire Mk.IXe.

    "Ground-to-air and air-to-air communications were facilitated by another technological advance - very high frequency (VHF) radio. In 1939 Fighter Command aircraft were still equipped with TR 9D high frequency (HF) radios. An operational trial undertaken with the new TR 1133 VHF radio by No 11 Group in October 1939 showed it to be "infinitely superior to the TR 9D (HF) from an operational point of view". "

    "Despite its improved performance, delays in production forced Fighter Command to withdraw the TR.1133 from service in May 1940. Although the new set was reintroduced from August 1940, the limited number of VHF radios available nevertheless meant that the majority of squadrons would be forced to continue with the earlier TR 9D HF radio for the remainder of the battle."
    The TR.1133 similar to radio fitted in DCS P-51 Mustang.

    The basic radio of B of B is the TR.9D - depict in CLoD Spit/Hurri, and since his operation require use the switch above volume control (left side of cockpit): Transmit - Off - Receive,
    my guess is the pilots leave the microphone switch on mask always on, or would be necessary turn the switch in volume control to Transmit and turn the microphone on.
    Leaving the microphone always on he need operate only the switch.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Jul-05-2017 at 19:24.

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    The radio that allow voice operated microphone is the TR.1133 (VHF) - probable fit on Spit later on B of B:

    The TR.1133 similar to radio fitted in DCS P-51 Mustang.

    The basic radio of B of B is the TR.9D - depict in CLoD Spit/Hurri, and since his operation require use the switch above volume control (left side of cockpit): Transmit - Off - Receive,
    my guess is the pilots leave the microphone switch on mask always on, or would be necessary turn the switch in volume control to Transmit and turn the microphone on.
    Leaving the microphone always on he need operate only the switch.
    While still open for opinions, I have decided to program my controllers for a Left handed microphone operation. As far as our discussion has led us so far, it certainly COULD have been the hand of choice.

    For those wondering why I even care about it, it's because, out of personal preference, I try to program all my controllers to simulate the hand movements a real Spitfire pilot would have used to operate his airplane. For example, gear had to be operated with the right hand so I use the NumPad 8 and NumPad 2 for gear up and down, respectively. Q and W are my magneto switches for the same (Left Handed) reason. It's just a part of my personal gaming style.
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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Two pictures of the early type radio controller. This was up on Ebay sometime last year (sadly it wasn't me who won the auction!)

    10D-8907 Radio Controller1.jpg

    10D-8907 Radio Controller2.jpg

    Click pics for larger versions.

    ~S~

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    From Keypublishing topic:

    This from my Haynes Manual RAF Battle of Britain Operations Manual explains some of the specific RAF radio issues and may be of interest:

    "The key to effectively communicating with fighter squadrons in the air during the Battle of Britain clearly rested on a single route; radio. Or, to more accurately describe the system then in use, Wireless Telephony or W/T. However, the equipment being used during the summer of 1940 proved to be less than adequate for the task expected of it, with the W/T apparatus in use by RAF Fighter Command being the High Frequency (HF) T.R.9D set. In fact, it had been intended that by 1940 all fighter aircraft would have been converted to the Very High Frequency (VHF) T.R.1133 sets. (T.R. in both cases stood for Transmitter/Receiver)

    In practice it was found that the range of the T.R.9D set was too short and its performance too variable to give efficient air-to-ground communication for Fighter Command’s interception system. Thus, experiments and arrangements were put in place as early as 1935 to develop a VHF set. At that time it was anticipated that the new VHF sets would be available ‘in five years’ time’. In other words, by sometime in 1940. Part of the problem with the HF sets, apart from range, was that the number of users of the high frequency band had increased dramatically (even in wartime) from when it had been adopted twelve years earlier. These users included civil, military and foreign stations and a real possibility existed that the sets might be jammed from stations two or three hundred miles away and for all of these reasons it was desirable that a replacement system should work in another frequency band. However, delays in development and production of a new VHF set persisted but eventually it appeared that eight sectors in No 11 and 12 Groups, involving up to 300 fighters, could be equipped with the new sets by September 1939 and by October service trials of the new T.R.1133 sets were being undertaken by Spitfires of 66 Squadron. The results were dramatic, and exceeded all expectations with an air-to-ground range of 140 miles and an air to air range of 100 miles. Speech was clearer, pilot’s controls simpler and quicker to operate, direction finding was sharper and in every way the T.R.1133 was beyond any comparison with the T.R.9D. Unfortunately, however, the first stage of the re-equipment plan did not work out as quickly as had been hoped although it was further planned that by May 1940 an improved version of the VHF set, the T.R.1143, would be coming into use although, at that stage, only partial re-equipment with the 1133 set had been achieved and the majority of aircraft still had the old H.F. T.R.9D sets. Production and supply of the 1133 or 1143 had failed the RAF at its very hour of greatest need. Further, the operation of a force equipped partly with one type of W.T. equipment and the other part of the force with the T.R.9D was unworkable. It was a dire situation for RAF Fighter Command to be facing on the very eve of battle, and it led to Air Chief Marshal Dowding to signal the Air Ministry and No 11,12 and 13 Groups:

    ‘In view of the necessity for maintaining flexibility in operation of all Fighter Squadrons at present time, and limited wireless apparatus available, all VHF equipment in aircraft is to be replaced by the HF T.R.9D sets forthwith.’

    An angry Dowding then wrote to the Air Ministry on 1 June 1940 deploring the inadequacy of supplies which had forced him to abandon this the most successful form of fighter communication. Only by reverting to the old H.F. sets could anything like a workable R/T organisation be maintained and losing the advantages of the new VHF sets was a retrograde step and a bitter disappointment. This retrograde step certainly affected the operating efficiency of RAF Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain and there are many examples of poor R/T communications recorded in the operational narratives of squadrons during the Battle of Britain illustrating how unsatisfactory the High Frequency T.R.9D sets were. For example, over Chelmsford on 18 August 1940 only one section of a squadron came into action against a German formation. The other sections in the squadron failed to hear an order addressed by the squadron commander owing to loud interference by a German transmission in which conversation between enemy pilots could be plainly heard. There had also been similar experiences over Swanage on 15 August, for example. Sometimes, the T.R.9D sets worked well, but in general too much of the pilot’s time and attention was taken up in the sheer effort of passing and receiving messages, with interference a frequent distraction. As a case in point, one RAF Battle of Britain fighter pilot, Plt Off Ken McGlashan of 245 Sqn, was subsequently scathing of the ineffectual T.R.9D sets. Talking of his own experience over Dunkirk in May 1940 he said: ‘We still waged war with the primitive T.R.9D radio as well as doing battle with the enemy. Selecting a frequency could be likened to finding a TV channel through a sea of white hash and interference. And one had to constantly keep tuning and re-tuning if one was to have any hope at all of communicating or receiving information. Of course, in the midst of combat a pilot had limited free hands with which to attend to such a job but suddenly a screech came over the ineffectual radio and filled my helmet with an awful deafening, squawking cacophony of static. I learned later that it was another pilot trying to warn me of five Me 109s diving on us, but I was none the wiser. On this occasion, I was shot down. Later, in June 1940, whilst on patrol over Cherbourg I spotted three enemy aircraft climbing rapidly below us. I tried to warn our leader several times, as it was obvious he hadn’t yet seen them. Unfortunately, the T.R.9D was true to form yet again.’

    The T.R.9D, however, remained the wireless set in operational use throughout the Battle of Britain but its failings were a desperate and daily worry for both fighter pilots and controllers alike. It would be impossible to say on how many occasions this ineffective piece of equipment led to the loss of pilots, the breakdown of air-to-air communications between pilots or the inability of controllers to pass intelligible information to their squadrons and the resulting failure to intercept raids.'

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    1lokos, i haven't seen this Haynes RAF Battle of Britain Operations Manual before, but looks good, so ordered a copy.



    But I'm cheap so might not arrive for a month

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    I believe they used a tongue-hold down switch inside their mask....which explains why the Brits sounded like they had a mouthful of plums over the R/T.
    My dear boy !!

    Of late I have been given to activating mine with a sliver spoon.

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    So using teamspeak on the TWC channel is realistic...... Sp00k Harkens it to herding cats...It is amazing how WW2 like our simulation is...filled with "where the hell am I , Are you ,Which way, Your mic is open, Say again, I don't see anything, Damn radiator, I think it's a 109, Where the hell did he come from and hell if I know"
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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    While still open for opinions, I have decided to program my controllers for a Left handed microphone operation. As far as our discussion has led us so far, it certainly COULD have been the hand of choice.

    For those wondering why I even care about it, it's because, out of personal preference, I try to program all my controllers to simulate the hand movements a real Spitfire pilot would have used to operate his airplane. For example, gear had to be operated with the right hand so I use the NumPad 8 and NumPad 2 for gear up and down, respectively. Q and W are my magneto switches for the same (Left Handed) reason. It's just a part of my personal gaming style.
    Baffin - Today in going through responses to questions on the radios at the bottom of this thread, I saw this very earlier post by you on how the microphone was switched on, mechanical or otherwise. Some suggested always open when R/T on, others maybe tongue switch.

    By looking around I found that the G type switch was used prior to the introduction of H in 1944. Both where mechanical on oxygen mask.

    https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/17907.002

    G type type G.png
    G Type G Type.png
    H Type H type.png

    This issue may be already resolved, if so disregard.
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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    If what is show in the (1952) movie "Angels One Five" portraying Fighter Command station is correct, pilot can't leave their microphone control in talk - open - because this supposed block the communication for other pilots in same frequency ??? (at least on the movie).

    Operate the T.R. control lever require move left hand from throttle.

    http://123movies.is/film/angels-one-.../watching.html
    Last edited by 1lokos; Jul-05-2017 at 22:28.

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    Re: Question: Spitfire/Hurricane Microphones-How did they work?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    If what is show in the (1952) movie "Angels One Five" portraying Fighter Command station is correct, pilot can't leave their microphone control in talk - open - because this supposed block the communication for other pilots in same frequency ??? (at least on the movie).

    Operate the T.R. control lever require move left hand from throttle.

    http://123movies.is/film/angels-one-.../watching.html
    I don't think it would prevent the others from transmitting but I do think that while your own mic was transmitting, you couldn't hear anyone else.

    No source on that though I may be wrong.

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