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Thread: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

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    The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Evening chaps,

    I just got a MSFFB2 Yay!

    After I spent 30mins playing with CLOD and the FFB editor Fedit.... It became apparent that the game is not using the "autocannon" FFB effect file when firing the cannons and has a bug that makes it use the "shake" file instead.

    So I tried simply renaming the "autocannon" file to "shake" and sure enough the proper autocannon FFB effect was now working in game when I fired the cannons. The autocannon effect is much less than the shake effect and is in time with the rate of fire of the canon...

    BUT this means the "Shake" effect has been replaced with a much lower amplitude effect and now when I am turning on the edge of a stall there is no stall warning effect. Dam this stall warning buffeting is probably the best thing about having FFB in the first place.

    I still think that when flying the Bf109 at high speed typical bf109 tactics the stall buffeting is not really missed as I am rarely going slowly or turning on the edge of stall.

    So I could live with the lack of stall warning buffeting in the bf 109 but the RAF fighters are the complete opposite. They have no bugged canon effect to worry about and they spend a lot of time turning hard on the edge of stall where the buffeting is very useful.

    So What do you guys with FFB do? change the file every time I play and stick to red or blue? Is there a better solution to this? Maybe this problem can be fixed easily by Team Fusion next patch if they are aware of the problem? Are they aware of the problem?

    The game is simply directed to the wrong FFB effect file .



    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\parts\core\FF


    autocannon.ffe

    shake.ffe


    If you fly the bf 109 and want to use the correct autocannon FFB effect at eh cost of stall buffet warning FFB then simply rename autocannon.ffe to shake.ffe


    Of course make copies first

    Willy Z ( Dirty Rotten Flieger )

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  3. #2
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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    here is the Fedit.exe if you can't find a live link to DL from
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    I have come up with a solution. I edited the "shake" eff file so that the first two thirds of a second uses the correct canon feedback sine wave and then the full stick shaker kicks in after that.

    It actually works quite well in that if you are flying straight and unloaded you can fire a short burst of cannon with very mild stick shaking but if you fire a sustained burst longer than .66 seconds the stick shaking increases dramatically.

    If you are pulling close to stall with buffeting for longer than .66 seconds the full pre stall buffeting effect is present.

    This also has the extra effect that if the plane is heavily G loaded when you fire the canon the stick heavy shaking kicks in immediately. Probably fairly realistic and so nice to be able to fire a nice clean short burst without spilling my hot coffee if I am flying fast and straight and not pulling G's.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by integralanomaly; Sep-05-2015 at 08:24.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Wow smart man.


    So, what do I do with this file? Is it a notepad edit?

    I would LOVE to give this a try.


    Did it eliminate the 109 bug where you need to bang a few off to cut out the stick and slow to re-engage it? It's weird but do that once she works the rest of the night.


    I've just been hanging on tight whenever I fire cannon.


    So you still get the stall warning right? The delay is .44 of a second?


    I think I could live with that.


    You get THREE likes. Such a rad joystick eh.
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Sep-04-2015 at 19:14.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Hi Smoke!

    Yeah been playing with FFB all day. It has changed my whole perspective ...

    That file called " Shake" is a zip file of the modified FFB effect file. unzip it and put it in

    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\parts\core\FF



    I have some friends with MSFFB2 and we all were getting extremely violent canon shaking effect, as are you by the sound of it. I found Fedit.exe and wanted to edit the effect to tone it down a little, in line with all the other flight sims I have which have much lower shaking from MGFF cannon.

    But I see that the game is bugged and the canon uses wrong file. So we have the dilemma... If I fix canon I break stall warning buffet and vice versa.

    This is a compromise but it works better than I expected it would.

    Flying straight in un G loaded plane snf firing you get .66 sec of mild shaking. So a short burst of canon is ideal. If you hold cannon down, stick shaking increases dramatically after .66 seconds.


    The stall buffet still works but it takes .66 seconds to reach full effect.


    Unintended consequence is that if you are already in G loaded buffeting, the canon will cause heavy shaking straight away. Which I really like because I think it may actually be more realistic this way.


    Hope that explains it simply. See you on ATAG.
    Last edited by integralanomaly; Sep-05-2015 at 08:07.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    delete*
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Sep-05-2015 at 01:16. Reason: double post

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    This will be good. I intend to double the sticks up.

    I am currently building my cockpit. Space really counts in this project. We will be living in this full time. My cockpit is space saving.
    Wife is awesome and rather patient. I am building her an Airstream like she wanted though.

    I'm building it to single bed size so that when we have a family or we no longer live in this full time it will be bunk beds.




    [IMG][/IMG]



    I can't freakin wait to be trailer trash.




    ________
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Sep-05-2015 at 00:46.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Oh thats great. I have seen thouse double sticks people make. Is that to give a sense of weight to the stick ? I imagine it gives you the feeling that your stick is attached to heavy rods and control wires.

    Good luck with the home pit. Let me know if the canon shake effect feel better . I am curious that it works for you as well as it does for me.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Hi Willy,
    Quote Originally Posted by integralanomaly View Post
    It became apparent that the game is not using the "autocannon" FFB effect file when firing the cannons and has a bug that makes it use the "shake" file instead.
    That you not only found the bug, but also it's cause by just fiddling around is just awsome.

    To faciliate and organize bug reports and feature requests, we have established a bugtracker here at http://tfbt.nuvturais.de1. May I kindly ask you to create a new issue there with this bug? (And, if you haven't done so already, please do read the guidelines here first: http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf/boards/4).

    And please do include a link back to this thread in the description, so that people can find your ingenious workaround and the discussion here.

    Thank you very much,
    Artist

    -----
    1 If you're not registered there already, please do ('Register' on the upper right hand corner od the login screen).

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by integralanomaly View Post
    Oh thats great. I have seen thouse double sticks people make. Is that to give a sense of weight to the stick ? I imagine it gives you the feeling that your stick is attached to heavy rods and control wires.

    Good luck with the home pit. Let me know if the canon shake effect feel better . I am curious that it works for you as well as it does for me.

    I want it to have more force than it does actually. When I lengthen the stick it will lose some of the force it puts out. I dislike that idea.


    The cannon shake for example isn't so much of an issue for me. Scaffolding for years has made things feel lighter and I was already a bit heavy handed.


    My Saitek X55 stick for example; I used the strongest spring and was thinking about trying to find a stiffer one.



    My FFB2 feels just right now. So doubling it up when I lengthen it will keep it that way.


    It's too bad you can't calibrate these anymore. I've read that back in the day you could customise the way the force feedback behaves.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    Hi Willy,
    That you not only found the bug, but also it's cause by just fiddling around is just awsome.

    To faciliate and organize bug reports and feature requests, we have established a bugtracker here at http://tfbt.nuvturais.de1. May I kindly ask you to create a new issue there with this bug? (And, if you haven't done so already, please do read the guidelines here first: http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf/boards/4).

    And please do include a link back to this thread in the description, so that people can find your ingenious workaround and the discussion here.

    Thank you very much,
    Artist

    -----
    1 If you're not registered there already, please do ('Register' on the upper right hand corner od the login screen).
    That is unfortunately old news!
    What is even more strange though is that the 110 uses the correct file for its 20mm cannons!
    And on top of that, if you switch OFF realistic gunnery, also the 109 uses the correct shake file for the cannons!
    Mysteries of Clod

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_SMOKEJUMPER (XRC) View Post
    It's too bad you can't calibrate these anymore. I've read that back in the day you could customise the way the force feedback behaves.
    Yep - it was very nice. But I think the FFB curve editing program stopped working wiht Windows 7.

    I have a small collection of FFB2s, and haven't flown with anything else since 2001. Because I never found a satisfactory solution to the COD cannon bug, I started flying the 109E-1 almost exclusively. It's worked out okay.

    Don't know what I'll do when we finally get the FW-190. Will burn that bridge when we get to it.
    Intel i5 3570K @ 4.3 GHz, EVGA GTX 780, MS FFB2

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    That is unfortunately old news!
    What is even more strange though is that the 110 uses the correct file for its 20mm cannons!
    And on top of that, if you switch OFF realistic gunnery, also the 109 uses the correct shake file for the cannons!
    Mysteries of Clod


    So wait, we can force fix this by turning off realistic gunnery? Does this work online?


    Quote Originally Posted by JV44Rall View Post
    Yep - it was very nice. But I think the FFB curve editing program stopped working wiht Windows 7.

    I have a small collection of FFB2s, and haven't flown with anything else since 2001. Because I never found a satisfactory solution to the COD cannon bug, I started flying the 109E-1 almost exclusively. It's worked out okay.

    Don't know what I'll do when we finally get the FW-190. Will burn that bridge when we get to it.


    Yeah dude that first shell gives the stick one hell of a hard kick.

    I tense up before firing. Good thing these sticks are also tough as nails.
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Sep-05-2015 at 19:40.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Willy's mod works a treat!


    It's a good compromise. I do notice a delay in shudder while stalling but it's slight and there are enough other queues for the early warning. It doesn't effect how slack or stiff the stick is.


    Another positive is that I do believe it fixes the glitch where the force feedback cuts out after firing. You know the one where you need to get to stall speed to make it work tab out etc etc.

    I fired my cannon after an air start in two servers and it didn't cut out. No more wasted shells first sortie on Kanalkamph!

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    That is unfortunately old news!
    And we all would have known if it had been in the bugtracker...
    What is even more strange though is that the 110 uses the correct file for its 20mm cannons!
    And on top of that, if you switch OFF realistic gunnery, also the 109 uses the correct shake file for the cannons!
    Mysteries of Clod
    Oh. Good to know. Something to add to the issue, integralanomaly aka Willy will hopefully add to the bugtracker.

    In the mean time, it could be a good idea to write a (windows batch)script to execute the changes by Willy when you want to fly a 109 and to revert to the original state when you want to fly a 110 - both naturally called by the user before he starts CloD.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    And we all would have known if it had been in the bugtracker...

    Oh. Good to know. Something to add to the issue, integralanomaly aka Willy will hopefully add to the bugtracker.

    In the mean time, it could be a good idea to write a (windows batch)script to execute the changes by Willy when you want to fly a 109 and to revert to the original state when you want to fly a 110 - both naturally called by the user before he starts CloD.
    I added that in the bug tracker loooong time ago..Unless it has been deleted it should still be there somewhere?

    This was discussed even on the old UBI banan forums.
    The problem is that it only appears for people with FFB joysticks and as a consequence os not an issue for most people

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    It became apparent that the game is not using the "autocannon" FFB effect file when firing the cannons and has a bug that makes it use the "shake" file instead.

    So I tried simply renaming the "autocannon" file to "shake" and sure enough the proper autocannon FFB effect was now working in game when I fired the cannons.
    The autocannon effect is much less than the shake effect and is in time with the rate of fire of the canon...

    BUT this means the "Shake" effect has been replaced with a much lower amplitude effect and now when I am turning on the edge of a stall there is no stall warning effect.
    Dam this stall warning buffeting is probably the best thing about having FFB in the first place.
    I think this is intentionally and not bug, probable result of old discussions in Ubi'Z00 about the "gamey" of the FF effect that shake the stick like a mechanical bull when cannon is fired.
    I give up to use FF stick because this and the bumps over asphalt runway like on a rally road...

    Since originally the stall (the really beneficial FF effect for WWII planes) is tied to "autocannon FFB" the solution used on CLoD is not use this effect for cannon, leaving only for stall.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Could be that it was in theold bugtracker we used for the final Maddox patch... I'll check (being a FFB guy, too)

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    I think this is intentionally and not bug, probable result of old discussions in Ubi'Z00 about the "gamey" of the FF effect that shake the stick like a mechanical bull when cannon is fired.
    I give up to use FF stick because this and the bumps over asphalt runway like on a rally road...

    Since originally the stall (the really beneficial FF effect for WWII planes) is tied to "autocannon FFB" the solution used on CLoD is not use this effect for cannon, leaving only for stall.
    Yes that would be a good solution. But you cant get rid of one of them and keep the other. I would happily keep the stall buffeting and get rid of the cannons as a good compromise. As far as I know that is not possible?!

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Found it. It was in the old bugtracker. Added it's info to #761

    ------------
    Removed: I copied it to the current bugtracker: #762
    Last edited by Artist; Sep-07-2015 at 06:29.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Thx Artist!
    Can you copy and paste here what was written there?

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    I may have found a downside.

    I'm not sure I get hit warnings anymore when someone is scoring hits on me.

    Would this mod affect this?

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    I put it in the bug tracker just to be sure. I couldn't find an older mention of it in the bug tracker but there are some older posts on the forums that mention it, but not in a very clear way.

    I've been flying online for the last few days using the modified shake file with both red and blue planes and I think it works great. Much better than the original. I can feel the prestall buffet and the canons feel good too.

    The RAF planes feel so nice when you can feel the air over the tail surfaces in a turn or loop.

    I haven't noticed any problem with the hit effects but I wasn't looking for any either. There is a "punch.ffe" file which feels like a hit effect. I assumed this was the hit effect file. Would be easy enough to test it.

    If you wanted I could make another shake.ffe with a shorter cannon effect. Half a second instead of .66 seconds. or I could even make a 3 or 4 round burst of cannon. The MGFF was 540rpm, so 9 rounds a sec would be .333 sec for 3 rounds.

    So I could make it .4 sec for 4 rounds burst of cannon effect then full shake effect. It's only fraction of a second difference but it's also only 2mins to make the file.

    Well here is a .4 second version of the shake.ffe file incase anyone prefers it.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Hi WillyZ,

    Quote Originally Posted by integralanomaly View Post
    I put it in the bug tracker just to be sure. I couldn't find an older mention of it in the bug tracker but there are some older posts on the forums that mention it, but not in a very clear way.
    No, you couldn't find it at that time, because it was still in the older bugtracker used in summer 2012 for the final maddox game patch (and accessible only to TF). I merged the two and added the info of the old entry to yours: #761


    Thank you,
    Artist
    Last edited by Artist; Sep-07-2015 at 06:32.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Thankyou for your help Artist and all of TeamFusion

    I have enjoyed so much time ATAG server and it has been the greatest flight simming and PC gaming pleasure I have had.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Thank you back!

    It's all about this great community and all but the fun we have!

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Yes, thanks for the effort Artist and the team.


    Willy, I removed your mod thing~o. I'm not sure I felt cannon hits any more when Trademe was shooting the piss out of me in a 110 last night. Could be the opposite of a placebo.

    Normally 110s are meat. No idea how he does what he does.


    I am going to try the .44 mod Willy.


    Thanks!@
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Sep-07-2015 at 12:06.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Hi,
    On the 109 I have sometimes a cutout of the FF also with MG. I'm the only one out there?

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Hi,
    On the 109 I have sometimes a cutout of the FF also with MG. I'm the only one out there?
    I have that sometimes as well. Typically it's right after firing the MGs, but today online I had it cutting out during firing, which made firing impossible.

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    Re: The force feedback canon shake bug delema ?

    Kinda funny and/or weird, as I loose the FFB whenever I drop bombs.

    Not aware of any solution unfortunately...

    For me, it's not too bad, one does not drop bombs that many times in one mission... but to have it happen on guns/cannons... that's rather bad.

    Did you change anything regarding the contents of the FFB folder? Maybe restoring them might fix this? (Now I am assuming that one of the FFB files is causing that, maybe at one time you did not like the gun/cannon effect and swapped/renamed files to lessen the effect and it now uses the file that I use for bomb drop? Disclaimer: I am simply assuming stuff here, have not tested or checked it, it's just a hunch!)

    Good luck!

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