Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 38

Thread: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

  1. #1
    Supporting Member FightingSteel1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    1.50 MB

    Post Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Warning, this is a little long...

    After playing a fair amount of CLOD both offline (initially), and recently online, I became inspired to write a discussion regarding AI design. Or, more specifically, AI and how it differs from the online experience against human opponents.

    In general, I believe that AI programming in the flight sim genre has been sadly neglected for a long time. As a player of combat sims from back in the day of Dynamix's Aces series, Jane's, and the original IL-2, the offline component of our modern sims is lacking. Not that the AI work has taken a step back, but more like it's been completely neglected. The aforementioned sims included enemy aircraft that would consistently look to destroy you. They had identifiable tactics of some sort (whether effective or not), and friendly AI was generally competent and "commandable." This provided a somewhat believable and engrossing single player experience.

    Now, IL-2 BOS has made some strides in this area. Enemy aircraft are fairly deadly and provide some kind of challenge. Friendly AI though is oddly inconsistent and completely oblivious to your directions as leader of a flight. I have no interest in starting a CLOD/BOS war in this thread, but CLOD is considerably more laughable in this aspect. AI is a mess, with issues too numerous to even list. Flight commands are notoriously broken or non-existent. This initially disappointed me as a primarily offline player when first purchasing this game.

    Since moving on to multiplayer with CLOD, and recently splitting time on BOS between offline/online, it strikes me how much AI needs to evolve in modern day combat sims. I was thinking about my own thought processes while playing human opponents, and my experience in online encounters. In comparison to "good" AI in the old games (and flashes of it in BOS), a few points come up:

    1. Situation: In an engagement against a human opponent, I will look at the situation and determine my course of action from there. Have a favorable position above an opponent? Dive on them, take your shots and zoom up and away. Unfavorable situation? Try to break away, get distance to leave or get the advantage back. No AI I have found pays any attention to their situation, but a lot of human opponents will.

    2. Equipment: In general, while mostly flying the 109, I understand my opponents equipment and adapt tactics to that. I feel comfortable out climbing a Hurricane, or definitely not turning after a Yak-1. AI protocols don't really seem to take "matchups" into account at all. This is important, especially as I found that tactics against an I-16, or Spitfire, or LaGG, whatever, can greatly differ. For example, Hurricanes in CLOD shouldn't be climbing after my 109 until they stall out, but they do anyway.

    3. This is hard to describe, but I think the most important. From years of flying against offline opponents, I got used to the usual routine of "meeting up" with enemies face to face, with a twisting, turning hectic dogfight breaking out. While this does happen online, and of course happened in real life, I think that's only part of the story. A large percentage of my kills online have come from diving on completely oblivious opponents, or opponents that only realize belatedly I'm right behind them, or from following after pre-occupied enemies chasing my friendlies. This is completely different from offline play. The AI always knows you're there, never gets surprised, and therefore is basically all knowing. You can't dive on an unsuspecting formation, nor does the AI ever temporarily (or completely like I sometimes do lol) lose sight of an opponent. No AI seems to come close to modeling a humans blind spots, carelessness, preoccupation or limitations.

    All of these points I think are interesting conversation about improving flight sims in general. Wouldn't it be amazing to program enemys (and friendlies) to respond in a certain way to a situation, or identify and take different tactics based on what aircraft they come up against? And even more interesting, I started thinking about a randomized routine, where any given computer controlled plane had a certain percentage "chance" of noticing an enemy diving from 2000m above them, or have a modeled reaction time. What if they could be programmed to not be able to "see" an enemy directly below/behind them?

    I think I've rambled enough. I thought this may be a unique topic to discuss a bit. I realize this is a very online oriented community, but being able to somewhat replicate a human vs human experience offline would be very cool, and something that hasn't been done in any flight sim I've played. I think it's relevant, as the gameplay experience offline vs online is so different because of the factors I've mentioned.

  2. #2
    Team Fusion Cybermat47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    3.23 GB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    I honestly couldn't have put it better myself. This thread should be stickied!
    Author of the Desert Hawks, Eagles over Tobruk, On Ne Passe Pas!, and Rising from the Ashes campaigns.

  3. #3
    Combat pilot II/JG77_RC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    West Coast of Canada
    Posts
    150
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    The AI in the most recent versions (since 4.10) of IL2-1946 is pretty darn good. Compared to anything else out there it is the best if you ask me. Sadly I don't think any Dev team will be able to replicate the thinking of a real person behind the control's.

    That is why online WW2 combat sim flying is the ultimate. Particularly in the "full switch" Cliffs of Dover environment. The full switch Il2-1946 environment was amazing as well, but, sadly it has become almost non existent, except for the odd SEOW campaign going on.

    The wait for TF 5.0 is driving me mad with anticipation. A few more planes and a new Theater is exactly what the doctor has ordered.

  4. #4
    Team Fusion Salmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    2,321
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    191.25 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    All valid points about poor Ai performance. TF recognises that the Ai in CLOD needs improving & plans are already under way to address this after TF5.0 is released.

  5. #5
    Ace Mysticpuma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Worcestershire, UK
    Posts
    4,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    1.55 GB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Or depending how things fall into place, with TF 5.0

    Still a lot of work to be done but it's in the list
    "The needs of the Flight Sim Community outweigh the needs of the one or the few"

  6. #6
    Admin ATAG_Snapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,673
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    206.59 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybermat47 View Post
    I honestly couldn't have put it better myself. This thread should be stickied!
    Agree!

    Done!


    i7 4770K @3.5 GHZ, 24 Gigs DDR3 1600 DIMM, Gigabyte GTX980ti 6 Gig, Win 10 64 bit, TrackIR 5, TM16000 joystick, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Quadrant, Saitek Pro Combat rudder pedals

  7. #7
    Team Fusion Salmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    2,321
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    191.25 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    For those with technical interest, here's an interesting thesis on what is required to build an Ai for just a 'simple' 1 v 1 dogfight. Makes for interesting reading, & covers most of FightingSteel1's points well

    CREATING A DOGFIGHT AGENT - The design and implementation of a fully autonomous agent that can fly an airplane during a one-to-one dogfight.
    Last edited by Salmo; Nov-29-2015 at 11:18.

  8. #8
    Manual Creation Group Continu0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,712
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    MSI GAMING G65 // i7 4770k @ 4.2GHZ // ASUS GTX 780 CUll // 8GB RAM (@1600mhz) // Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit Version
    Thrustmaster T16000 + Saitek x52 Throttle // Saitek Throttle Quadrant // MFG Crosswind Pedals // Track IR 5

    www.jagdgeschwader4.de

  9. #9
    Supporting Member FightingSteel1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    1.50 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Wow, I've never gotten a post "stickied" before I appreciate the feedback everyone.

    Because of the AI limitations I've mentioned, I have enjoyed playing online on the ATAG server and BOS against human opponents. I had gotten used to the online experience recently, until buying BOS and playing through the decent SP campaign for unlocks. Then the differences came back to me and were more apparent as I was playing CLOD online and BOS offline.

    A big difference for me is the tradeoff between the two. Online has dynamic opponents and unpredictable situations, but sometimes I crave the structured missions, flights, etc. found in offline content. Unfortunately, you just don't have many flights of fighters, escorted bombers, or much more than singular opponents doing their own thing. If you play the single missions/campaigns, you have to deal with little to no help from your wingmen and unrealistic tactics.

    As I was thinking about it, it wasn't until I began playing online that I became this engrossed in WWII air combat. Though I've played the games for years, I've now begun buying books about the topic and memoirs of historical pilots. I've studied the technical specs, tactics, ammunition, etc. about my most used aircraft, the 109. In the old days I'd play against computer opponents in missions/campaigns and if you got shot down, you just pressed "replay." Most of the time you could get away with turning after more maneuverable fighters, stalling out, or committing all sorts of mistakes. But you can't do that against real people.

    There is so much more strategy to being successful online right now, and it would be great to somewhat replicate that and provide good practice offline with AI. I imagine for some newbies the difficulty difference is daunting. I wish I had some kind of remedy for the problems with AI I've mentioned. I don't really know what kind of work if would take to try to implement any of these ideas.

  10. #10
    Ace
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    520
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    484.9 KB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    No AI sticky thread is complete without showcasing the thinking and work of Battle of Britain II AI guru, 'Buddye'.

    ****

    Buddye on design of the BOB2 AI Maneuver Selection

    The design of the AI maneuver Selection Criteria was driven by the need to become more deterministic and less random in selecting AI maneuvers. I felt the need to move in this direction to improve the AI offence and defense so the AI selection software had more control...

    Here is a summary of how the AI selects from the (more than 80) available maneuvers:

    1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
    2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
    3. Position of A/C to each other (nose to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back) This is what makes the AI really 'smart' - it is constantly testing to see if it is 'offensive' or 'defensive' and chooses its response dynamically as the fight progresses.

    To implement the new selection criteria I built a 3 X 6 matrix (a truth table) and many new programs. For each A/C (the unfriendly and the AI or the player), I designed programs to look at Altitude, Speed, and position and to first try and select the best maneuver option (aggressive or defense) based on AI skill level. The same I applied to ground attack scenarios, was the aircraft offensive (targets in range, and not being targeted by player or other AI aircraft or AAA) or was it defensive (targets in range but being targeted itself).

    Altitude and speed can also be thought of as “energy” as altitude can be turned into speed.

    I created an uber aggressive 'Terminator AI' which only chooses from the offensive tactical set, it never goes defensive, so you might want to try it out. With the tweak to Terminator routines, he was getting “cocky” so I implemented a random spinout feature. The Terminator flies so close to the edge now that he has a chance to “spinout”. This is when you can most easily get him.

    I also implemented a new AI feature called “Flying Factor (FF)”. This is the knowledge of the AI pilot to fly a given maneuver (the game tracks the experience of every individual AI pilot in successful or unsuccessful sorties) and how well the AI pilot will actually fly the given maneuver (skill). The FF is based on the Skill Level (customer selected in Instant Action Missions and software assigned in the Campaign). The Terminator is assigned a Skill Level of Hero2 (the highest in the game) so that is where he gets his boost in performance (edge). BOB2 has since 2009 had up to 4 mixed skills within a flight Novice, Veteran, Ace or Hero. So you might get lucky and bag a novice with limited abilities, to then be up against an ace who has the full range of AI talents available to it.

    AI Maneuver Selection is the KEY

    First, the BOBII AI has a special case for selection called “Evasive maneuver selection”. The Evasive maneuver is required when an AI is shot at (either a hit or near miss) or padlocked by an aircraft within visual line of sight and range. The AI will select a defensive maneuver randomly based on the criteria/data for both Player and enemy AI (speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other). Of course, the AI will evade the players quicker, if and only if, the AI can see the enemy (remember in BOBII, the AI vision is blocked just like the player's vision is blocked by the cockpit/airframe, wings, sun, clouds and distance). So as in real combat, you have the best chance if you surprise the AI by attacking from a blind spot, with altitude advantage, out of the sun or cloud.

    The first key decision to be made by the AI is to select either an aggressive or defensive maneuver. This is a complex decision based on the available information on both the Player and the Enemy AI or the friendly AI and the enemy AI. The core data considered for both Player and enemy is speed, altitude, and the tactical position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other.

    After selecting either an aggressive or defensive tactic, then a semi random approach is used to select a category (choose good, choose bad, or choose “neither” good nor bad maneuver). This also makes the AI very human, creating the chance that it will choose a 'bad' maneuver in some circumstances. The chance is higher for novice, and lowest for Hero AI.

    Maneuvers are then divided into three parts Vertical, Horizontal, and dive for each of our categories (choose good, choose bad, and choose neither good nor bad maneuver).

    In BOBII we have over 80 complex maneuvers for selection (both the aggressive and defensive maneuvers) for the fighters (Spit,Hurri,109.110) and over 50 maneuvers for selection for the ground attack aircraft like the JU87. The following are BOBII’s complex maneuvers. Highlighted maneuvers can be ordered by the player and are also tied to the radio commands so that the player can order their wingmen to perform the maneouver:

    MANOEUVRE_SELECT
    MANOEUVRE_LOOKROUND (AI will weave and roll to allow it to try to 'check' in blind spots when in the combat area.)
    MANOEUVRE_WELDEDWINGMAN
    MANOEUVRE_BAILOUT
    MANOEUVRE_TOPCOVER
    MANOEUVRE_FORCETOPCOVER
    MANOEUVRE_LINEABREAST
    MANOEUVRE_PINCER
    MANOEUVRE_MULTIWAVE
    MANOEUVRE_DIVEANDZOOM
    MANOEUVRE_INSIDELOOP
    MANOEUVRE_LAGPURSUIT
    MANOEUVRE_SPLITMANOEUVRE
    MANOEUVRE_HEADON
    MANOEUVRE_LINEASTERN
    MANOEUVRE_VICATTACK
    MANOEUVRE_BARRELROLLATTACK
    MANOEUVRE_SCISSORS
    MANOEUVRE_MILDSCISSORS
    MANOEUVRE_TURNINGFIGHT
    MANOEUVRE_SPLITS
    MANOEUVRE_ZOOMANDDROP
    MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTANDLEVEL
    MANOEUVRE_SPINOUT
    MANOEUVRE_DIVEFORHOME
    MANOEUVRE_GOHOME (Radio command for RTB)
    MANOEUVRE_MAKEFORFRIENDLY
    MANOEUVRE_MOVEAWAY
    MANOEUVRE_QUICKROLL
    MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANNTURN
    MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANN
    MANOEUVRE_ATTACKMYTARGET (Radio command. In ground attack radio menu, if the player has padlocked a target, the AI assigns 2 aircraft if available to attack the padlocked target. If no target is padlocked, the AI assigns 2 aircraft if available to search for ground targets and attack them, within visual range. Similar for air targets in the air attack radio menu context.)
    MANOEUVRE_STAYWITHPREY (Radio command which forces AI to ignore eg fighters and concentrate on bombers. The PREY is defined by the mission target type, either fighter, bomber or ground target. Important for BOB because RAF doctrine said pilots were not to deviate from mission objectives to attack targets of opportunity.)
    MANOEUVRE_CLIMBFORHOME
    MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTDIVE (for LW, this is a bunt, for the RAF Merlin engine fighters, they will roll to invert, then dive)
    MANOEUVRE_OUTSIDELOOP
    MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOFRIGHTEN (eg if AI detects a comrade under attack within range)
    MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOOEARLY
    MANOEUVRE_GAINHEIGHT
    MANOEUVRE_LAGROLL
    MANOEUVRE_EXTENSION
    MANOEUVRE_DIVINGROLL
    MANOEUVRE_REVERSETURN
    MANOEUVRE_SELFASBAIT (or 'drag and bag' in other parlance - AI flying with an AI wingman - one AI will fly steady and slow, luring the player, while its wingman stalks)
    MANOEUVRE_JINK
    MANOEUVRE_BREAKTURN
    MANOEUVRE_LAZYTURN
    MANOEUVRE_BREAKLOW
    MANOEUVRE_BREAKHIGH
    MANOEUVRE_BREAK90
    MANOEUVRE_BREAK180
    MANOEUVRE_HIGBARRELROLL
    MANOEUVRE_PANICTURN
    MANOEUVRE_TURNANDRUN
    MANOEUVRE_LOWALT
    MANOEUVRE_ZOOM
    MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTHIGH
    MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTLOW
    MANOEUVRE_GAINSPEED
    MANOEUVRE_HEADONATTACK
    MANOEUVRE_LUFBERRY (a special manoeuver for the Bf110s)
    MANOEUVRE_STEEPDIVE
    MANOEUVRE_UPANDUNDER
    MANOEUVRE_STALLTURN
    MANOEUVRE_SLASHINGATTACK
    MANOEUVRE_CLIMBTURN
    MANOEUVRE_ROLL360
    MANOEUVRE_STRAFFE (if given as a radio command - attack ground targets within visual range, or if player has padlocked a specific target, attack that target)
    MANOEUVRE_TRANSITION
    MANOEUVRE_PEELOFF
    MANOEUVRE_SNAPSHOT
    MANOEUVRE_STAYONTAIL (if given as a radio command - attack nearest air target within visual range, or if player has padlocked a specific target, attack that target)
    MANOEUVRE_FLYTHROUGHCLOUD (a defensive manouver available if clouds are present - the AI dives for the nearest cloud)
    MANOEUVRE_REGROUP
    MANOEUVRE_DISENGAGED
    MANOEUVRE_SPINRECOVERY
    MANOEUVRE_COLLIDE
    MANOEUVRE_LAST
    MANOEUVRE_ALIGNMENT
    MANOEUVRE_DROPANDZOOM
    MANOEUVRE_COLLISIONAVOIDANCE
    MANOEUVRE_TURNTOHDGANDPITCH (turn to heading, a waypoint command)
    MANOEUVRE_SCREWYOUGUYSIMGOINGHOME (when damaged, out of fuel, or low on morale - the AI will still evade if attacked when running for home.).

    The AI Performance Criteria/Dependencies

    Skill Level

    The AI performance is dependent on AI Skill Level (which is customer selected in Instant Action and SW assigned in the campaign). BOBII AI do make mistakes (spin, crash, dumb maneuvers, bad judgment, shoot late , shoot bad, etc) which is after all very human.

    The skill level of the AI is key in making decisions on about everything with respect to AI performance like (1) how well the AI fly, shoot, shoot fast, slow, accuracy, or not shoot, (2) how well the AI fly, what maneuvers are selected, and how well the AI will fly the chosen maneuver.

    Experience

    Each AI pilot/aircraft in the game is assigned a unique identifier. Each time that pilot is included in a sortie their experience score increases. If the sortie is successful (enemy destroyed by squadron>friendly lost) experience is also increased. If the sortie is unsuccessful (enemy destroyed<friendly lost) experience remains the same. Experience determines how many maneuvers the pilot can choose from, skill determines how well they execute them (choose good, choose bad, or choose “neither” good nor bad maneuver). This is the Flying Factor.

    Morale

    The game tracks the morale of every pilot and squadron/staffel in the game. Losses during combat impact the morale of a pilot and his unit in real time. If the AI pilot achieves a kill, morale is increased for themselves, and for their unit. If the unit takes losses, the AI pilot morale is decreased. When they land if enemy destroyed by squadron>friendly lost, overall morale is increased for the whole unit. If the sortie is unsuccessful (enemy destroyed<friendly lost) overall morale is decreased for the whole unit. An AI pilot's morale level and any losses of their unit during an actual combat, will increase or decrease the likelihood of the pilot choosing a bug-out maneuver ('RTB', 'turn_and_run', 'dive_for_home', 'screw you I'm going home') or a panic maneuver (panic_turn, maneuver_collide, shoot_too_early).
    Random Numbers (Luck of the draw)

    The BOBII AI A/C is also dependent on luck (specifically on random numbers). Random number decisions are coded through out the AI code. BOBII’s random approach keeps BOBII from doing the same thing each time. Even something as simple as the direction to start a maneuver (left or right), I will use a random number to decide (why hard code something when you can use a random number).

    For example, most BOBII vertical maneuvers use a random number to assign a length of time to for a specific vertical maneuver (Like Zoom). The AI pilot will sometimes cut off early, or late, or somewhere in the middle. If early, the maneuver may carry too much speed, and if late, the AI may slow down so much that control is lost (very human).

    The bottom line is that the customer will always see a somewhat different maneuver (very good, good, not so good, and loss of control) both because of the random implementation and the different physic’s parameters (speed, roll, heading, pitch, and overall energy) going into each maneuver.

    The very real downside of random numbers is it is very hard to test (not repeatable) and the processing power used.

    Conditions

    The conditions for each maneuver are always different - weather: wind speed, and wind direction will affect airspeed, and damage to AI aircraft affects how well the AI can maneuver or what maneuvers are available. A damaged AI will not fly as well as an undamaged AI as engine damage effects airspeed and structural damage limits control surface response (damage is always taken into account in the AI flying performance).


    As you can see, he was one detail oriented guy.

    But as I said, the success of the BOB2 AI system was building the matrix of offensive and defensive maneuvers and linking them to experience, skill and morale. After that, he was able to more successfully tie radio commands to the relevant maneuvers.

  11. Likes Gorgon14, farley, SharkBait, Fanakapan, ahab71 liked this post
  12. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    69
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    34.48 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Heh, I started reading this thread and immediately had vivid memories of 'Buddye' from BoBII. The chap was a genius and built up an incredible AI system there, loved every minute playing it.

  13. #12
    Ace
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    520
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    484.9 KB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Sigh, yep. Every now and then I fire up BOBII (still have it on my wife's win7 laptop...won't run under win8/10) and play with AI set to 'terminator', 12 v 12 furball.

    In the world of combat sim AI there is still nothing to compare with the white knuckle ride of taking a BoBII Spit up against an aggressive AI in a 109E that flies like a human, but never gives up, and is always trying to get a firing solution on an enemy target.

    Lots of nice AI finesse that Buddye didn't cover above which also help the realism:

    - you can set in the options how many AI can target you at any one time - one, two, four - up to you
    - your wingman will actually cover your six if you order him to (in fact they actually try to follow orders, isn't that a nice feature?)
    - you can order your wingman to 'drag and bag' with you as the bait, and he actually will
    - AI Bf110 flight commanders can order their flight into the historic 'lufberry' circle defensive tactic
    - you can padlock specific targets (bombers vs fighters, or specific aircraft, ground targets) and order your wingman(men) to attack them, and they actually do
    - if your flight gets decimated, rookies will 'lose their bottle' and run for it, veterans will stay and fight on

    I simply don't understand why all this was possible in a sim from 2005, but not one from 2010...

    H

  14. Likes Gorgon14 liked this post
  15. #13
    Novice Pilot
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    68
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    81.47 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Great read...
    One day I hope we can have the AI code and campaign system of BOB II and the graphics of CLOD integrated into one package.

    To this end I have done a simple analysis of the AI Behaviors using a constant mission scenario and testing the response of the AI using the standard skill levels. The results are included below.

    AI Behavior Testing
    Constant Mission file Log.mis :Mission Events
    Wellingtons and Spitfires following same course. A group of 109s (Average Skill) spawns in and proceeds to attack Wellingtons, all have TASK Normfly
    A Player group of jU 88s is circling nearby,
    Test group is the Spitfires Testing each TASK at a standard skill Level.
    TASK: Normfly

    SKILL Ace: Planes free roamed and attacked the player flight as a priority
    SKILL Vet: Saw the Aproaching 109s and turned to engage but got a bit lost eventually found them and gave chase
    SKILL Avg: Failed to see the approaching 109s even at close range, but proceeded to attack the JU 88s
    SKILL Roo: Dumb as followed waypoints did not see 109s or Ju 88s

    TASK Escort with no target assigned

    SKILL Ace: They seemed to react to the 109s but then went off on a wild goose chase, even missed the player flight as it passed close by
    SKILL Vet:
    SKILL Avg: Saw the 109s as the appeared ahead of them and engaged one fired a real long burst
    SKILL Roo: Dumb as even ignored the player flight as it passed by in visible range

    TASK Escort with target Assigned (half the waypoints) might overide the Alt settings too

    SKILL Ace: Agressively attacked the 109s as they were approaching the wellingtons 109s were the priority, continued after passing unassigned WP
    Flew a zig zag escort course
    SKILL Vet: Agressively engaged 109s, even ignored player flight as it passed reasonbly close by, short bursts
    SKILL Avg: Saw the 109s as the appeared ahead of them and engaged one fired a real long burst
    SKILL Roo: Flew the zig zag course..reacted to 109s but then flew off away from battle circled around

    TASK Cover .No target can be assigned

    SKILL Ace: They reacted briefly to the 109s and one chased for a bit but eventually rejoined and the continued to follow waypoints
    SKILL Vet:
    SKILL Avg:
    SKILL Roo: No Reaction at all

    TASK FreeHunt

    SKILL Ace: No Reaction I Think Free Hunt is not implemented..second time the 109s came up behind they reacted (avoided) but it did not look like ace behavior
    SKILL Vet:
    SKILL Avg:
    SKILL Roo: No Reaction

    TASK Engage Fighters no Target Assigned

    SKILL Ace: as the 109s approached they were engaged agressively
    SKILL Vet: Once again they reacted. Attack pattern: Climbed to height above 109s attacking wellingtons then dived on them then seemed to lose contact
    SKILL Avg: Reacted to the approach of 109s after they crossed under them, ignored the player group that passed close by and engaged the 109s
    SKILL Roo: No reaction to 109s or Player group that fired on them. Did break from waypoint path to fly a wide circle

    TASK Enagage Fighters Target Assigned 109s

    SKILL Ace: as 109s approached they turned to engage dived and gave chase

    Also I have been working on a way to store pilot data based on the skill modifier system implemented in CLOD.

  16. #14
    Student Pilot LucShep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by heinkill View Post
    Sigh, yep. Every now and then I fire up BOBII (still have it on my wife's win7 laptop...won't run under win8/10) and play with AI set to 'terminator', 12 v 12 furball.

    In the world of combat sim AI there is still nothing to compare with the white knuckle ride of taking a BoBII Spit up against an aggressive AI in a 109E that flies like a human, but never gives up, and is always trying to get a firing solution on an enemy target.

    Lots of nice AI finesse that Buddye didn't cover above which also help the realism:

    - you can set in the options how many AI can target you at any one time - one, two, four - up to you
    - your wingman will actually cover your six if you order him to (in fact they actually try to follow orders, isn't that a nice feature?)
    - you can order your wingman to 'drag and bag' with you as the bait, and he actually will
    - AI Bf110 flight commanders can order their flight into the historic 'lufberry' circle defensive tactic
    - you can padlock specific targets (bombers vs fighters, or specific aircraft, ground targets) and order your wingman(men) to attack them, and they actually do
    - if your flight gets decimated, rookies will 'lose their bottle' and run for it, veterans will stay and fight on

    I simply don't understand why all this was possible in a sim from 2005, but not one from 2010...
    Count me in the group that still fires up BoB2 and feels just the same...
    _________________________________________________
    PC SYSTEM - OS: Win10 Pro x64 | CPU: Intel W3690 (6c/12t) @4.5GHz | RAM: 20GB DDR3 1866MHz | GPU: RX 5700 XT 8GB | STORAGE: 2x 500GB SSD + 1TB HDD | MONITOR: 32'' 1080P 75Hz/60Hz LG 32ML600M-B | CONTROLS: Saitek X52 Pro + TrackHat (w/OpenTrack)

  17. #15
    Student Pilot
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    7
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    1.71 GB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by heinkill View Post
    Sigh, yep. Every now and then I fire up BOBII (still have it on my wife's win7 laptop...won't run under win8/10) and play with AI set to 'terminator', 12 v 12 furball.
    ME TOO!!!

    Heinkill, do you happen to know what happened to Buddeye? I never got why he suddenly just disappeared. Also, do you know if his source code is still around/available?

    Regards,

    Alfie

  18. #16
    Novice Pilot Hening's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    The Commonwealth of MA
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    297.04 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    This is an old thread but a topic near and dear to my heart. I've been involved with IL2 since the beginning and even though AI reached a higher level of programming than the initial CLOD, there was always a key element missing. There is nothing more frustrating than flying in the clouds and getting nailed by AI, who are basically Terminators. Clouds and darkness have no effect on evading them. Playing in the arena, I get nailed by AI while I using the clouds to my advantage.

    But...most importantly, the RAF was a night-fighting operation over Europe. 110's with "Jazz Music" weaponry and Blenheims feeling their way through the night would be awesome, except AI sees just as well in the dark as in the sunshine. If there was a way to give AI the same challenge in clouds and the dark as humans, that would be something.

  19. #17
    Combat pilot
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Well worth bumpbing this topic Hening.

    The AI is sadly a major disappointment with CloD. There is almost no single-player playability for this game.
    On the plus side, this means that the online community has probably survived becasue of it... In fact some multiplayer envionments almost provide an "online" single-player experience (that is, you can have a career and do meaningful cmapaigns online without necessarily meeting up with humans)

    However, despite this, the AI is in dire need of attention. Most of this thread so far has been dedicated to the AI fighter behaviour.
    My main gripe with the fighters is that they seem to have a "flee" setting which kicks in at some point, casueing them to give up on combat and to proceed home at low level, and lowish speed, oblivious to any threat.

    Escort fighters in CloD do not really work. They will all lunge after the first enemy they see, instead of prioritising threats and maintaining their proximity to bombers...

    But my main problem is with the bombers themselves.
    The "bravery" and "discipline" settings have no obvious effect on behaviour. bomber pilots do not appear to be able to prioritise their own survivial or their missino objectives over staying in formation. I've watched entire sections of bombers spiral down to their deaths, just beasue the lead aircraft was destroyed, or out of control. This happens almost every time I run my test missions.
    AI gunners are another major issues. There is no concistsenty in skill level between aircraft. A novice in an He-111 is about as deadly as the "ace" gunner in a Do-17.
    When they do gte shots on target, the gunners seem to also mainly aim for engine and cockpit, giving them a disproportionate amount of disbling shots and pilot kills.
    And, of course, the AI seems unaffected by cloud. Their gunners can see though it, and their pilots will manouver in it with apprently full visibility.
    Storm of War - Simulations Multiplayer Environment - www.stormofwar.org

  20. #18
    Supporting Member FightingSteel1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    1.50 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Thank you for the perspective on the bomber behavior. As I'm not a bomber pilot myself, I haven't witnessed much of their AI on missions. Certainly there is also room for improvement for both fighters and bombers in CLOD. The ability to fly large "raid" style missions as a bomber with escorts that actually stay with you, or playing as one of those escorting fighters and having competent wingmen would be a huge upgrade for SP in CLOD.

    AI gunners have been a constant topic for this game I believe, and hopefully improvements are coming for that soon.

  21. #19
    Ace 1lokos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    5,224
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    988.37 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by philstyle View Post

    But my main problem is with the bombers themselves.
    The "bravery" and "discipline" settings have no obvious effect on behaviour. bomber pilots do not appear to be able to prioritise their own survivial or their missino objectives over staying in formation.
    I like this behaviour - instead that ridiculous bombers trying "dogfight" fighters of BoS - IRL only the abiltiy to stay in tight formation save the Dorniers of Lindmayr's 1.Staffel/KG 76 be completely slaugethered, on Sept.15,1940 - midday action.

  22. #20
    Ace No.401_Wolverine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    761
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    974.2 KB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    The funny thing is how inconsistent the AI code is. A lot of the time I see the same behaviour Phil describes, but on occasion I'll see something that makes me thing 'ahh that's what they were trying to code'. For instance, a bomber formation of 18 aircraft hit by interceptors and as the ranks get thinned and flight leads go down, the remaining bombers begin to jettison their bombs and turn for home as they lose their nerve.

    It's as if the AI code was just starting to come together and then work was stopped and called 'good enough'.

    That said, it must be the most impossible thing to try and get good AI code working that at the same time can operate quickly and simply enough not to grind everything to a halt. At the same time you're trying to make something that behaves reactively and doesn't just execute pre-plotted maneuvers every time (even if they are excellent historical maneuvers).

  23. #21
    Combat pilot
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    I like this behaviour - instead that ridiculous bombers trying "dogfight" fighters of BoS - IRL only the abiltiy to stay in tight formation save the Dorniers of Lindmayr's 1.Staffel/KG 76 be completely slaugethered, on Sept.15,1940 - midday action.
    Yes, but in CloD, they will follow the leader down to his death, when the lead aircraft damaged.
    This is what I mean by "staying in formation".. they seem to want to follow the section leader everywhere, even when it is obvious that the section leader is out of control....
    Storm of War - Simulations Multiplayer Environment - www.stormofwar.org

  24. #22
    Combat pilot Bussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    160
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    76.64 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    I think the biggest problems with the AI are the following:

    AI in "Returning to base" mode ignore enemy fighters totally, probably the biggest flaw in AI.

    AI in formation make strange movements causing frequent crashes. This is Nr. 1 cause of loss of bombers.

    Not good teamwork with the AI possible, but this is mainly due to the limited communication system.

  25. #23
    Ace 1lokos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    5,224
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    988.37 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by Bussard View Post
    Not good teamwork with the AI possible, but this is mainly due to the limited communication system.
    The communication system planed for CloD was very detailed (see bellow), improved over 1946, but was disabled on "release" and instead fixed was "sweep under the carpet" and replaced with a canned and half broke system.

    order----------------------------------"Radio message"
    order Target_From_Task Target From Task
    order All All
    order Fighters Fighters
    order Bombers Bombers
    order My_Target_Type My Target Type (by viewport)
    order My_Target My Target (by viewport)
    order Back Back
    order Attack Attack
    order Cover Cover
    order Air_Targets Air Targets
    order Tanks Tanks
    order Flak Flak
    order Vehicles Vehicles
    order Train Train
    order Bridge Bridge
    order Ships Ships
    order Ground_Targets Ground Targets
    order Drop_Tanks Drop Tanks
    order Drop_Bombs Drop Bombs
    order Rejoin Rejoin
    order Go_To_Start Go To First Waypoint
    order Takeoff Take Off
    order Return_To_Base Return To Base
    order Hang_On Hang On
    order Add Point Add Point
    order Next_Point Next Point
    order Previous_Point Previous Point
    order Order_Height Altitude
    order Navigation Navigation
    order Vector_To_Home_Base Vector To Home Base
    order Vector_To_Nearest_Base Vector To Nearest Base
    order Vector To Target Vector To Target
    order Vector To Nearest Threat Vector To Nearest Threat
    order Request_For_Assistance Request For Assistance
    order Request_For_Landing Request For Landing
    order Request_Takeoff_Clearing Request Take Off Clearing
    order GroundControl Ground Control
    order Tighten Tighten
    order Loosen Loosen
    order Echelon_Right Echolon Right
    order Echelon_Left Echelon Left
    order Vic Vic
    order Finger_four Finger Four
    order Diamond Diamond
    order Line_Abreast Line Abreast
    order Line_Astern Line Astern
    order Change Change
    order Formation Formation
    order To_Do Action
    order Distance To Fire Distance To Fire
    order Status Status
    order Jump Bail Out
    order Crew Crew
    order Help_Me Help Me
    order Ready For Takeoff Ready For Takeoff
    order Ready For Full Stop Ready For Full Stop
    order Damaged Damaged
    order Wounded Wounded
    order Have No Ammo Have No Ammo
    order Have No Fuel Have No Fuel
    order New Frequency New Frequency
    order Frequency Frequency
    order Group Group
    order Wingman1 Wingman 1
    order Wingman2 Wingman 2
    order Wingman3 Wingman 3
    order Wingman4 Wingman 4
    order Flight1 Flight 1
    order Wing1 Wing 1
    order Wing2 Wing 2
    order Flight2 Flight 2
    rder Wing3 Wing 3
    order Wing4 Wing 4
    order Flight3 Flight 3
    order Wing5 Wing 5
    order Wing6 Wing 6
    order Flight4 Flight 4
    order Wing7 Wing 7
    order Wing8 Wing 8
    order Maintain_Radio_Silence Maintain Radio Silence
    order Cancel_Radio_Silence Cancel Radio Silence
    order Report_Contacts Report Contacts
    order Do_Not_Report_Contacts Do Not Report Contacts
    order Head_On Head On
    order Boom_And_Zoom Boom And Zoom
    order Attack_Type Attack Type
    order Disengage Disengage
    order Proceed_To_Task Proceed To Task
    order Land_Immediately Land Immediately
    order F_Close Close
    order F_Near Near
    order F_Middle Middle
    order F_Far Far
    order Declare_Emergency Declare Emergency
    order Report_On_Station Report On Station
    order Unavailable Unavailable
    order Engaged Engaged
    order Free Free
    order Maintain Silence Maintain Silence
    order Cancel Silence Cancel Silence
    order Hold_Fire Hold Fire
    order Open_Fire Open Fire
    order Report Status Report Status
    order Hand_Over_Control Hand Over Control
    order Landing_Gear_Control Landing Gear Control
    order Flaps_Control Flaps Control
    order Report_Airspeed Report Airspeed
    order Report_Altitude Report Altitude
    order Return_Control Return Control
    order Make_Left Make Left
    order Make_Right Make Right
    order Break_Left Break Left
    order Break_Right Break Right

    order Copy Copy
    order Do_Not_Copy Do Not Copy
    order Roger Roger
    order Unable Unable
    order Ready_For_Takeoff Ready For Takeoff
    order Damaged Damaged
    order Wounded Wounded
    order Have_No_Ammo Have No Ammo
    order Have_No_Fuel Have No Fuel
    order Element Element
    order Spacing Spacing
    Original orders menu:

    Clo_D_Radio_Orders.jpg

    Clod_Radio.jpg
    Last edited by 1lokos; May-26-2016 at 12:56. Reason: add

  26. Likes von Graf liked this post
  27. #24
    Team Fusion TWC_Fatal_Error's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    657
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    225.37 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Ok point taken but with some simple experimentation I think I have solved many of the AI weaknesses in Clod online. After seeing what 109s did in Storm of War it was easy for a single pilot to engage 6 109s and lead them on a merry chase away from the bombers they were supposed to escort while not suffering a single bullet hole from any. Now mind you you may be holding them off for 52 minutes , and I have film of that over croydon, but it was routinely done on many occasions.

    If you fly red and I am working on the blue also come try our Server as we use it for practice in dealing with Ai that may be a bit better than you are used to. All are welcome but remember this is a work in progress read the briefing try and cover the area as best you can. Blue pilots are always welcome but have little to do at present unless you want to bomb or escort then by all means do so.

    I am not doing this to be in competition with any server just a place where practice is serious.

    TY Fatal
    i7 2700 ,32 gigs, 4 ssd's ,1 7200rpm 2terabyte,1 samsung 55 display,2 mfd's,EDTRACKER,Warthog ,X55 stick, 7inch liliput monitor in mfd's 21 I-inc secondary display for instruments using virtual cockpit
    [*]iustus facere unus[*] JUST MAKE ONE ( FATAL ERROR) Commander TWC http://twcpilots.com

  28. #25
    Student Pilot Sieben's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    RF, Krasnodar region, Novorossiysk
    Posts
    23
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    2.14 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    The AI behavior resembles the behavior that is depicted with the WW2 guncams some how. The plane keeps flying straight or with lil manouvers while it is spitted with the enemies lead gently. The pilot is not dead at that time. Just a note. On chronicles not all do what is done in the game by not AI.

  29. #26
    Combat pilot Bussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    160
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    76.64 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Original orders menu:

    Clo_D_Radio_Orders.jpg[/QUOTE]


    The Original order menu looks good. Would be nice if some of these could be added in an update.

  30. #27
    Student Pilot PhoenixBvo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    57.71 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    This is an excellent discussion. I am also hoping for improvements in A.I. and comms from the illustrious TF 5.0 patch.

    Actually, I am so interested in fighter combat A.I., I'd really like to code an A.I. myself. I've just posted my ideas here.

  31. #28
    Combat pilot
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    115
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    110.68 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    This is going to sound a little out of left field but it is my opinion that there really isn't that much wrong with the AI in CloD so far as realistic behavior goes.

    I've bee flying migman's excellent campaign quite a lot lately and at first I thought the Bf-109 AI must be broken but that was a rash assesment and one that I found was very quickly eroded the more I played and the more carefully I observed.

    Enemy AI

    The big problem is managing what people expect vs what the AI seems to be coded to do. People expect a dogfight drone that will always offer battle no matter what but the CloD AI is more sophisticated than that, it will only offer battle if it deems it to be within favourable parameters. This means that often, when you engage the AI it will put a higher priority on fleeing or maintaining formation for various reasons, the primary ones being how much fuel the AI flight has, its' skill level and and whether or not it has an advantage over you.

    The AI will dogfight you and when it does, it does a fairly good job. It will evade like mad if it gets out maneuvered (becoming tired after strenuous maneuvering) and it will also bounce you if it can. If it is low on fuel it will maintain formation and only evade your attacks because dogfighting would mean not getting home and this is what a lot of people fail to understand! If it is threatened and can't retaliate because it would be illogical to do so, it will run. It might not dive and go full throttle because it is low on fuel or due tot he risk of flying low through a concentration of AAA. The AI skill levels are also very diverse, not every element of flight leader is Werner Molders, some of them are inexperienced, some are quite skillful and this is reflected in their marksmanship and propensity to either panic or fight back when threatened.

    Anyway, it's my opinion that the AI is actually very good. How good the AI SEEMS depends upon how realistically you play. The AI is coded to survive and chooses its' fights opportunistically and intelligently rather than being a mindless turning drone, it has a job to do that doesn't involve entertaining YOU!

    Friendly AI

    You're a young Pilot Officer and still a young pilot, you've yet to master the Spitfire but the CO has put you in command of Yellow Section because you're the most experienced man he has. Flying your wing are two Flight Sergeants from the replacement depot who both have less than 8 hours on type. You job is to keep them alive and how well they do depends on how well you do.

    "Stick to me like glue Simon" That's how I view the friendly AI.

    I think the portrayal of BoB in popular culture has polluted our perception here, not every sortie in the battle was a perfectly choreographed movie sequence. You will find that some AI is more capable than others in keeping up with you. The workload is high in a Spitfire undertaking a scramble and battle climb to Angels 15 (if you are flying it realistically, setting your gun-sight, aligning your DG, trimming, keeping up with Red Section, wondering where the hell Yellow Three is, scanning the sun, following Top Hat's orders and, last but not least, looking for the bloody Jerries every spare moment you have)

    In a real scramble people aren't perfect. People crash on takeoff, stray from formation and get left behind, maybe they get picked off by a 109? Maybe they crash? CloD AI does a good job of simulating the variety of situations that may occur and it often forces me to make a decision between keeping up with Red Section or slowing down to allow Yellow Three to catch up and possibly losing contact with Red Leader.

    What it doesn't do very well is allow me to give specific orders to my section and that is all it needs I believe, an "RTB" call to dismiss the AI on landing, a "Take the Lead" call for if I am out of the fight and a more reliable "Attack" and "Rejoin" call. As it stands, they will attack but only if you lead them into a situation where their logic triggers them to attack, their focus is staying on your wing because you are their best chance for survival. I think they are a little too conservative for the purposes of entertainment but that they do portray sprog Flight Sergeants with 6.5 hours on Spits or young Pilot Officers who know the very basics rather well. They're not all Sailor Malan, Alan Deere, Ginger Lacey or Hugh Dundas and that's fine by me.

  32. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Stamford, Lincs, UK
    Posts
    1,033
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8
    Total Downloaded
    7.46 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    The big issue for MP concerning AI is the "Look everyone, there's a bandit, everybody chase him. No no no, ignore the fact that there's more fighters slowing picking you off, or killing the bombers. That first guy is THE target."

    As Fatal says, it's too easy currently for one player to fly over the top of escorting fighters and drag them away from their charges, and watch as they comedy stall climb to your altitude while your teammates get easy kills. It went so far in SoW that squads were deliberately generating SOP's for "gaming" the AI in this manner.

    The other big issue is the "oh, I'm going home now. Switch off braincells and fly straight and level regardless" behaviour of AI when they reach their end waypoints or RTB point.

    If TF can fix either, or both of these, I think we'll see a damn sight better combat environment.

  33. #30
    Supporting Member FightingSteel1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    1.50 MB

    Re: Detailed discussion of offline AI vs human players

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyBlonde View Post
    This is going to sound a little out of left field but it is my opinion that there really isn't that much wrong with the AI in CloD so far as realistic behavior goes....
    No disrespect, but I can't really agree with any of your assertions. I think you may be trying to justify the AI behavior by imagining human error or inexperience in their actions, but any perceived similarities must be because the AI programming either doesn't exist or simply is very basic. I haven't gone up against a CLOD AI "player" yet that is in any way similar to human players I've faced up against, whether inexperienced or with hundreds of hours of fake combat experience.

    If an AI pilot was truly mimicking a green Pilot Officer with little awareness, then you would be able to spot his aircraft, dive on him, put a ton of holes in his craft and leave (happens in multiplayer against humans). But that's not happening, because the AI knows where you are before you see him. So instead, they twist and turn, chase you around, stall out, than randomly decide to leave.

    Of course, that doesn't cover the issues with friendly AI. Your wingman doesn't stick to you like glue and rarely helps you out. You have no real command of your flight as leader, and your flight pilots aren't competent to lead you around either.

    Quick addendum: Is my memory failing me, or does CLOD have no provision to allow you to be anything but the flight leader?
    Last edited by FightingSteel1; Jun-04-2016 at 21:07.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •