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Thread: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

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    109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    All credit goes to The Expert pilots Flying among us for all this brilliant information and quotes i have compiled into a single post


    KansasCS

    With all aerial combat tactics, it takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to perfect.


    ATAG_Endless


    Fly her fast , Fly her smooth , fly her with care because she will kick the SH#T out of you if you miss treat her.
    At the end of the day it takes a special person to master and have the patience to fly the Beautiful Bf 109


    GloriousRuse
    I often recommend a series of stock maneuvers to new 109 pilots, or 109 pilots who have plateau'd at the point where they can win a bounce, but not a dogfight. I have no claim to being an ace dogfighter myself, but I do know that with these basic moves in the quiver, any intermediate 109 pilot can greatly increase their chances of prevailing over all but the best spit and hurri drivers. Comments are welcome. The first maneuver we look at is...


    The Displacement Roll


    Untitled.jpg

    The Problem: I keep up my discipline, get good bounces, but those Red's keep looking out their six and just start to TUUURRRRNNN for life when I come down. My 109 cannot TUURRRN for life, so eventually I either run out of E or break off the attack. Even if I Yo Yo in for a deflection shot, I am not very good at it, and would much rather reset to his high six than gamble my position on a fleeting snap shot.

    The Solution: The displacement roll converts your angle of movement 60-120 degrees left or right while storing E as altitude. You can adjust your distance off the enemy by tightening or loosening the roll, tighter brings you closer, which is good for aggressively pursuing shots at some deflection. That said, tighter also increases the chance you muck it up or end up in an accidental turning match. Looser rolls tend to leave you higher and at a cleaner chase, but are much more of a reset to the high six than a gun pass. When in doubt, go looser.

    How To Do It:

    1) Begin your six o clock bounce. The spitfire starts a break turn that you cannot or will not match. You should make this call before the overshoot, and the earlier you make it the more E you will save.

    2) Begin a climb; increase the angle of the climb to keep the turning spit visible in your side view. DO NOT TURN WITH THE SPIT. Regain an altitude advantage, but don't fall into stall speeds. 250 kph+ minimum, 300+ preferred. Your nose should be pointing fairly steeply into the sky at this point. Short climbs = closer to the enemy, more deflection later, long climbs = further away, more aligned on the six.

    3) As the spit starts to flush out of your view, ROLL IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF THE SPITFIRE'S TURN. You should be able to track the spit through the top of your canopy through most, possibly all, of the roll. You are now higher than the spitfire, inverted, and with him in sight underneath you. Because you are at the top of a climb, adjusting your angle here is energy cheap - use the roll rate to point you where you want to go, and small stick moves to adjust. His turn is still very expensive, because he is breaking hard and horizontal. From here you can:

    4a) Decide to drop inside his turn with a steep dive. If he is still turning, you are already pointed across his probable turn, and just need to pull back on the stick to push your plane down into a lead pursuit solution. Requires a touch of E to avoid a stall, and you will have to adjust your roll for a deflection shot. This is the most aggressive answer, but you are often aided by the fact that many spit pilots will lose you in the roll or lighten their stick pressure this far in to the turn, knowing you could not have turned with them for a full 90 degrees.

    4b) Roll out to his high six. You can follow him all the way until he stops turning by moderating the rate of your roll. Chances are you'll have the energy advantage, and can afford to climb longer than he can afford to break turn. Finish a roll to right side up and level as he stops turning, and you'll find yourself at his high six. A solid move that effectively resets the game...but now he has even less energy thanks to that break turn, and has fewer options when you come in for the next attack.

    4c) Respond to his vertical move. He may split S, dive, or try to Immelman in to you. The good ones will try to pull you into a dive, then use their turn radius to out - Immelman you. If you roll out on top and add a slight spiral climb to keep him in sight, none of these will matter. You came in high E, and he is burning his in vertical moves while you stored most of yours in the climb. If he goes low, you can easily shadow him from on high and pounce at will. If he tries to do a vertical reversal in to you, he will end up flopping long before you do unless you give in to the temptation to go head to head. Don't. You'll be higher, and half way through turning on to him again just when he runs out of Schlitz.

    5) Repeat as needed. He'll break too early, or burn too much E to sustain a turn, or end up a few feet off the waves with no options, and then you kill him. Every time this process plays out, your relative energy advantage grows, and you can begin getting more and more aggressive in your moves as he runs out of options. At the end of the day, your gunnery still needs to put him away, but the consistent maneuver fight will leave you advantaged.

    GloriousRuse
    The High Yo-Yo

    high yo yo 2.jpg

    The Problem: I am advantaged, but no matter what I do, I cannot get a firing solution when the spit turns hard. I need to get shots on, and frankly, it would be better if that happened before his friends arrive or we end up on the deck. I need a way to turn inside of his break that won't leave me flopping like a fish.

    The Solution: The High Yo-Yo uses a short zoom climb to temporarily cut your turning radius and store E as altitude, and then pushes you out straight across your new lead pursuit solution in a dive. You need to time it right and shoot well, but it will bring you around inside a horizontal or diving break turn for the shot. It can result in a risky separation after the deflection shot, so some judgement is required.

    How to Do It:

    1. Start a short zoom climb as the spit starts turning, and maintain gentle lag pursuit during the climb. Its ok if you have to look out a side window, but try to keep him even or better with the wingline.

    2. Start rolling in to the turn of the spit once you gain altitude advantage, and gently pull your nose around as you roll. Once you are 90 degrees into the roll, you should look like you are in a hard lead pursuit turn with the target. The fact that you have zoomed up has given you a smaller comparative turn circle at the price of bringing you out of plane and slowing you down.

    3. Apply rudder and stick to drop your nose downwards and in to the turn. You are now in a turning dive and gaining your energy back from the altitude. You should be lined up in a favorable lead pursuit as you dive, possibly even getting a straight dive across his turn if you judged it very well. Chances are you won't, and you'll need to cash some E for the shot, but the point is you can get the shot despite the turning differences.

    4. GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!

    5. After your pass, you will probably have blown a chunk of E for the firing solution and you are both heading away from each other at 90-180 degrees of separation (unless he obligingly straightens out in front of you). This is judgement call time, but rarely would it be a bad idea to regain altitude right now. You can always convert your climb to another Yo-Yo, displacement roll, Immelman, spiral climb, or - should you have maybe ended up in a turning fight - a disengagement. If you don't have the E left to climb...you did it wrong, and its time to leave the fight.

    GloriousRuse
    The Offensive Synthesis: Yo-Yos and Rolls

    So, now we have two very basic offensive maneuvers. So, how do you put them together to actually kill things?

    Well, we'll assume that you begin this portion of the fight advantaged. If your beginning a fight at equivalency, we'll talk that later. If you're trying to attack disadvantaged before gaining position back, you should probably consider whether its really the dogfight that is getting you dead.

    The moves come in a series of aggression:

    Least Aggressive: Loose Displacement Roll
    Medium: Tight Displacement Roll
    Most Aggressive: High Yo-Yo

    Generally speaking, you want to start with less aggressive responses. This sounds counter-intuitive, given the focus on aggression often emphasized in fighter tactics, but you have to remember that your prime directive in this fight is not to let go of the advantage. So long as you have the advantage, you cannot lose the 1 on 1 fight.

    Early in the fight, if the enemy sees your bounce, he is at his least disadvantaged before his first move (assuming you are competently executing these moves.) He still has the potential to break hard, to sideslip, to execute a vertical reversal, and generally cause mayhem. Once he breaks, dives, or zoom climbs he sets his energy state to worse off than before. So long as you retain the advantage, his next move has less possibility to dodge, and more importantly, less energy to convert back to the offense. A loose roll as a response to his first move will comfortably put you in position on his extended six after any defensive move (except a rolling scissors) - whereas aggressive moves will generate the most difficult shots at this point.

    In addition, a loose roll lets you track him through the first move and see if he likes to play tricks like reversing his break after you zoom, or straightening out. In either case you are uncommitted in the loose roll, and can convert the roll to a yo yo by simply not completing the roll if he straightens out or revers his turn. Finally, it conserves the most energy if he decides to go vertical.

    After his first move or two, he will have far less E to handle the situation - or he'll have dived for new energy and be comfortably below you, increasing your advantage if you wait a few seconds. At this point the odds that you'll be foxed or out-maneuvered when you try a tight roll are much lower, and the resultant angle off shots will be more favorable than if he had E to blow in a break. The tight rolls will still give you some reaction time, as well as some time to set up better shots, while bringing you closer and closer to guns range.

    Decisions to use a Yo Yo comes in four basic cases: 1. You've bled his E out with rolls while keeping yours, and can now comfortably Yo-yo without fear that he'll six you on the separation. 2. He has reversed in to your roll and given you a free lead pursuit angle. 3. He broke way too early. 4. His friends are coming and you need to do this right now. In all of those cases, the Yo-Yo is essentially an attempt to cash in your advantage for a clean shot, either because you're sure you can regain the advantage based on E, or because you are willing to gamble your position. As imagined, this is something you would rather not do until you are sure you getting the best pay off for the investment. Sacrificing position early for a deflection shot rarely makes a lot of sense against an energy rich opponent who can make the pass very difficult, and use the separation to try to turn the tables. I personally would not recommend Yo Yo ing until late in the fight or presented a golden opportunity by enemy error.

    GloriousRuse
    The Max Rate Split S

    split s.jpg

    The Problem: There are tracers going past you right frickin now, and presumably there's a high E spit in guns range behind you.

    The Solution: A max rate split S will give you a screaming exit that is hard to pull guns on and buy the space for either a flat, diving, or climbing extension depending on the E balance.

    How to:

    1. Immediately start to roll and dive. Do not wait to complete the roll before diving. This will create both a vertical issue for your opponent (you slip under his nose and he risks carburettor cut out as he lowers it) and a horizontal one as he is forced to choose between trying to match your roll (he can't in a spit), ruddering over (it'll make shooting hard and increases your lateral separation), or break turning for guns which will leave him out of position as you complete the roll. Also, the combination helps disguise the split S. A half roll on its own is a dead give away.

    2. While still diving, slam the stick over into a max rate roll until you are inverted. It must be done as fast as you can rotate the 109 in order to defeat the spitfire's slower roll rate.

    3. Pull out as hard as you can without stalling. This is usually where most people muck it up. This is the point where the spit has traveled farther before inversion do his lower roll rate, and his high speed means he cannot complete the 'C" as tightly as you, creating separation. If you try to gently "C" his superior turning radius will bring him out on your six despite the separation you earned via rolling.

    4. He should flush out outside of guns ranges on your six either slow and slightly above you or on plane/just under you but with a slight speed advantage. It will be a marked less advantage than he started with because he needs to blow E to hold the position through the "C".

    5. Win the foot race. You need to use the space earned to accelerate to 400 kph+ or (300 kph + and out climbing), keeping in mind that a spit will accelerate faster in that speed band. This is the WEP, close rads, dive if needed point. You are now out of effective guns range and can use your top speed advantage to escape...but the fight isn't over. He is still a threat, he's just not gunning your brains out at the moment

    GloriousRuse
    The Diving Extension

    The Problem: There is an E favorable spit coming up your six, but outside of guns range. You don't have the angles or space to reverse, don't have the E to evade, and don't want to get all twisted up turn-fight fancy pants pilot stuff anyhow.

    The Solution: The diving extension will neatly pull you out of range long enough for your speed advantage to build up until the spit can no longer close. As a teamwork bonus, it will pull the enemy away from wherever he just told his friends you are and towards where your friends are. Anyone who wants to sweep your six has a clean straight shot , as opposed to cursing your name and hoping you die as you burn everyone's energy because you're too stupid to realize that not only won't turning save you, its screwing your friends as well.

    How To:

    1) Assess the rate of closure. When in doubt, they are closing faster than you think. Then decide on a shallow, steep, or power dive - dive harder when they are closing faster.

    2a) A shallow dive will give you a slight speed boost, but the spit can dive with it for an equivalent boost. This won't reset you to Co-E automatically the way other dives might, but if your just shy of equal, it'll make the foot race even. Plus, you retain altitude, which is good.

    2b) A steep dive can be matched by a spit, but the aerodynamics involved mean that both sides are Co-E after an acceleration period. Basically, at this point both sides are the same speed and continuing to dive is throwing away altitude that won't convert to energy. Which can be a good thing, because you can regain altitude faster than a spit.

    2c) Power dive. Point down. Don't stop until your plane is shuddering and groaning. The spit cannot match this dive, and you will gain a speed advantage regardless of what the initial energy state is. You need 2-3km o make it work. The down side is that most spit pilots will break out of thier dive earlier than you, meaning you'll flush out at an altitude disadvantage.

    3) Get back in the band of excellence. If you are below 2km or above 6km, the spit will eventually catch back up. This is a huge error many make, diving to the deck, riding out feeling awesome and then watching in horror as three minutes later the spit starts creeping inwards again. Don't stay outside the band of excellence. As soon as you have both bled off the excessive speeds and down close to normal max speeds (sub 500kph), start your gentle climb back in to the band.

    BUT HE'S ABOVE ME STILL! If that is the case, angle your climb to create lateral separation, don't go below 320 KPH. You want his next dive to the least efficient it can be, and are trying to decrease his angle of dive in order to make him waste altitude at an inferior rate of E conversion. You may need extend again in a gentler state than the power dive that probably caused this situation.

    4) Start winning the flat race. Rads down, WEP on.

    5a) Rope a Dope!

    5b) Call a friend to come shoot the guy who is cruising behind you in a straight line.

    5c) Just keep running. You know how everyone is always whining because a good spit driver can keep three or four pilots occupied for five minutes by turning and pretending to be Maverick before he dies? A mediocre 109 driver can keep infinite spitfires occupied for as long as the fuel lasts by simply driving straight. The fact that it doesn't look sexy doesn't mean it won't keep you safe for ..roughly..well, they'll run out of interest or blow a rad eventually.

    GloriousRuse
    The Rope A Dope

    rope a dope.jpg

    The Problem: Ok, so, he's back there in that spit chasing you all over creation. Not catching you mind, just chasing you. Its a mexican stand off. He can't catch you, and you can't turn back on your mission without him trying to cut your circle. It'd sure be nice to have a chance to kill him, or at least change out of this long six pursuit situation.

    The Solution: if there is a friend near by, have him kill the bastard. if there's not, the rope-a-dope will end with you dropping in via hammerhead somewhere between the former pursuers wingline and six depending on the angle, effectively reversing the advantage in the fight. Even if you screw it up, you'll probably end up with an altitude advantage and a neutral situation. Unless you screw it up real bad or he has a higher friend, in which case you'll die hanging on your prop. But your not going to because here is how to do it:

    How To Do It:

    1) Extend at the level, or even a dive, until you are nearly co-E, maybe slightly disadvantaged.

    2) Make sure he is sucked in to following your six.

    3) Begin a gentle climb, watch him follow you. keep climbing till your somewhere in the 350 range.

    4) Steep your straight climb until your at 300 (unless he is in guns range, in which case go straight to 5)

    5) Start a spiral climb inside his attack. You climb faster to the left, but the spit has to counteract more torque if you climb right, so it neutralizes mostly. If you have misjudged the distances or E, now is a great time to slam the WEP.

    6) Tighten and steepen the climb significantly as he gets into firing solution range. You'll notice a lot of tracers going by if you let him get close, but he will have a near impossible time landing anything given you'll both be hovering at 250 kph or less, and he is trying to point nearly straight up. In a perfect world, you'd like to be pointing your lower wing at his cockpit now, but not a huge issue if your not.

    7) Watch for his flop.

    7a) He flops it completely. Hammerhead onto his six if you have the airspeed.

    7b) He realizes hes out of E and straightens up. If he does this at or in front of your wingline, drop in and murder him. If its behind your wingline, you can only drop in if you are sitting at 250+...don;t try a 3/4 roll with break turn if you already have stall contrails...But you can use this opportunity to either replenish your E or gain the angle on him. From there you can decide if you want to disengage (you'll be comfortably a few hundred meters above him even if you flatten out), try to get some angles (you can regain E just by leveling out a sustained turn while he flies straight, just don't try to nose up any more), or reset for a clean fight where you have the altitude advantage (start a turn for a two circle, very gently, re-building e and building lateral separation. If he hauls back to get around on you using that magic spitty Energy retention, you'll still be out of range, and you'll close the head to head over him, usually with him trying to climb hard for a shot again - which you naturally defeat by adding a few more angles upwards, starting your reversal while he is going for the impossible shot)

    RAF74Buzzsaw
    High energy Spit on your six at low alt

    If you have a Spitfire with high E close behind and you are close to the deck you don't have the option of the Split S, you don't have the space to extend.

    In that case, the only real solution is a rolling scissors whereby you use the 109's superior low speed rollrate to force the Spit to overshoot.

    Basically this means the 109 pilot rolls into a turn, at the same time chopping his throttle... and then, just as quickly, rolls back the other way immediately he sees the Spit start to follow. It is best to alternate the rolls slightly upwards, and then slightly downwards, to avoid passing directly in front of the Spits guns.

    The 109 pilot continues this until either the Spit overshoots, or both aircraft are very close to stall speed.

    The 109 handles very well in low speed situations, and can continue to roll right up to stall... if it stalls and spins, it can recover with lightning speed. On the other hand the Spit will react to a roll at a point close to the stall with a spin... if you are on the deck this can mean the Spit goes into the water or the ground before it has a chance to recover. If the Spit continues the attempt to roll with you, he will spin first, or you will spin simultaneously, with the 109 recovering first.

    Once the Spit overshoots or spins, then the 109 can either go offensive, or alternately, use its generally better acceleration and direction change to exit in exactly the opposite direction to where the Spit is pointing... by the time it either recovers or turns 360 degrees, the 109 will have a good head start.

    This tactic works best with either the 109E-1 or the 109E-4B, the E-4N is a little bit heavier and more clumsy and its stall and spin is a little sooner and slower to recover.

    Edit:

    Against a Hurricane pilot who knows how to use his rudder to accelerate rolls, the rolling scissors works less well. The Hurricane's huge high lift wing stalls very benignly, the Hurricane can hang in the air like a parachute, and almost outwait the 109 in the low speed roll game... watch him stall first, then put his nose down and go in pursuit. So beware of taking a Hurricane for granted in a low speed fight.

    RAF74Buzzsaw
    Alternative low alt maneuvers

    Here's another alternative when caught low. This works at altitudes approx. 1000 meters and lower and when the enemy is close behind.

    The 109 starts into a descending continuous 360 degree roll... heading for the ground at approx. 30 degree angle, he rolls into a course which will take him into the ground.

    He does not turn, does not pull any G's with his elevator, these are aileron turns only... enough to keep his aircraft out of the enemy's gunsight.

    He then reverses the roll, and then reverses again, continuing to maintain a general course which will take him into the ground... at the same time, he makes the angle at which he aims at the ground just a little shallower... say 20 degrees.

    The Spitfire or Hurricane, if it wants to achieve a gun solution will need to duplicate the roll pattern.

    The series of rolls needs to be continuous, you need to keep the Spit/Hurri pilot focused on following, naturally they will be focused on the 109, not the ground. Whereas the 109 pilot is focused on the ground, his relation to it, and exactly what he needs to do to avoid crashing.

    Finally as the ground comes up, the 109 pilot should be wings vertical, aiming at the ground... the Spit/Hurri should be on its tail in the same position.

    Now timing is the essence....

    The 109 pilot reverses once again, as fast as he can, in one continuous roll, inverting, and then to wings level.... JUST IN TIME to avoid crashing, the roll to to level allowing him to pull out just in time.

    BUT, because the Spit/Hurri rolls more slowly, they will still be inverted by the time it comes for them to recover and they will be unable to do so, and will go in.

    The Spit/Hurri pilot must have the experience to recognize what is happening to avoid this... and roll back to level before its too late... otherwise they will be a smoking hole or a splash on the sea.

    And if they do refuse to follow the 109's last maneuver, and instead, roll back to level, they will lose their offensive position... thus the 109 makes its escape.

    It's important to keep the speed to approx. 320 kmh, that is the 109's best roll speed... too much faster and the 109's advantage is diminished. This may mean the 109 needs to roll off the throttle.

    RAF74Buzzsaw
    Dont let your ego get you killed

    Regarding a common 109 pilot error... there is a tendency to dislike using the aircraft's advantage in a dive... seen as 'un-manly' to run away. Sorry, guys, your ego needs to be put on hold. When you are in a dis-advantaged situation, and you have enough altitude to run, (approx. 3000 meters) DO IT. Staying around to fight, unless you are a superior pilot, will lead to heartache 90% of the time. Be smart. Run.


    ATAG_Lolsav
    The eternal mistake

    I hesitate to post in here, since it would perhaps be better to leave the thread clean. But i decided to risk and input some of my own observations and experience in the 109.

    I will talk about what i call the "Eternal mistake".

    How many times have 109´s pilots gone vertical, looked back and they see the enemy getting a solution on them? And on top of that the 109 pilot doesn't try to offset the enemy's aim. We can see tons of videos showing this behavior, which i call the "Eternal mistake".

    Ok, the enemy is zooming up on you and you are almost out of Energy to be able to get away, but still, in a stubborn way, the 109 keeps trying to zoom up. The result is predictable.

    So i urge 109 pilots to ask themselves what are they doing wrong. Wouldn't it be better to avoid spending all of their E exposing themselves to that situation? Before running out of E, and the enemy getting a good firing solution, why not to roll out to one of the sides, preferably the side they are climbing into (right or left), and extend away again. It seems so simple, but yet effective. It seems so simple and obvious, but yet i keep seeing this mistake all the time (me included). Lets provide better dogfights by avoiding the "Eternal mistake", shall we

    No.54 Ghost (kL-G)
    Know Your enemy

    The 109 and Spitfire are pretty equal in performance so
    Know your enemy and don´t underestimate him
    Know your plane
    Be aware off your surroundings (are there more enemies or friendlies nearby)
    Treat your opponents with respect.

    Diving on enemy from great height

    try side slipping your plane if diving from a great height this has added value of being able to control your dive speed Eg hold the dive at 600 - 650 kph this can have 2 benefits
    1: helps to not over rev the engine
    2 : have good visual contact with the enemy while in a vertical dive if the enemy is passing below your nose

    Vlerkies
    Don't fight on equal terms

    Simple, do not engage on equal terms. Make sure you have the advantage at the start always. If not lift your skirt and run like a girl and live to fight another day, I do.
    If you see a spit coming at you on those terms don't merge, but climb at your optimal climb settings for the altitude you are at. Just pulling up and not paying attention to the conditions of the climb will not help most of the time.
    Feign a head on merge, and force him to turn and follow, then climb, at optimal settings. Be warned some of these Spits seem to turn round and end up faster, god knows why
    If you have altitude on your side you can almost always get away if you have to by holding 700 kph in a sustained gentle dive.

    Each plane flies differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. I am talking about plane variants like E1 E3 E4 E4N and B's
    They each have their own optimal performance envelope where you will get the best out of them.
    In an E1 for instance I find the sweet spot from 2000-3800 m, that's where I get the best performance. The other are better higher up.
    Plan to operate within that envelope and know more or less how that differs from that of your enemy. The Spit variants are also different.

    One thing, they will always out turn you in a sustained horizontal turn fight. You can eek out a slight advantage in the first half to full turn or so by reducing throttle to tighten up, but you then sacrifice a lot of energy, so if you do this and don't get the shot, get out sooner rather than later and extend.

    Roll rate, you can use your much faster roll rate to your advantage, especially if you have been forced to sacrifice energy and your speed has dropped.
    Just put yourself in the RAF pilots position not being able to match your roll, you can do say a 270 degree roll and pull away before he gets through 180 at some speeds.
    If he isn't awake he may loose sight of you and thus give up his advantage.

    ATAG_Endless
    Stay above your opponent

    most times I get shot down by spits is from being bounced from higher alt . Most 109 pilots are looking down not up they don't expect spits to be higher if you think you are high enough go higher

    there will be times where you wont see much but your survivability will be greatly increased . When I fly my 109 solo I never enter the channel less than 5000 m ill takeoff spiral climb over friendly territory and then proceed to England

    so many times I have bounced spits climbing to alt low and slow mid channel
    If you catch a 109 co alt and relatively same speed you will find the 109 will most likely already be in a defensive mood

    and practice practice practice this is key don't give up if you get shot down start again. Also record your sorties and replay them after the fights to see where you went wrong

    ATAG_Lewis
    In the mind of a spitfire pilot

    I often fly alone...so I have devised a way that works as a lone wolf pretty much through trial and error and desperation but it seems to work ok..

    First...THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SITUATION AWARENESS....Knowing where every contact is around you means you get to react to it at the same time or importantly before your enemy does...That's a massive advantage in CLOD...You get to pick when to run or chase...

    Given that your post asks about not getting shot by the enemy then you need tobe able to defend before you can kill...Sometimes the whole map seems like you are on the backfoot and running but if you stick with it and fly defensively opportunities will come your way...its just important that you don't get despondent and concentrate on defensive flying first...then take your kills as and when they offer themselves to you...

    So densive flying.... l always get alt first and then keep an eye on the horizon and above...I fly high enough that I can make it home in a shallow dive...Anything below that is the danger area as a 109 will catch you in the dive so you need a head start...If a 109 or pair come for you then fly home in wide side to side sweeps while looking at your 6 constantly...thats what I do and works pretty well...I've learned to fly home looking backwards...lol...yeah seriously..all the way...drag them down low and in your home territory if you get desperate...ALWAYS know which home airstrip is the busiest because that's where you need to dive toward when you get chased...and if you do get hit make sure they have worked for it and you have dragged them low and home where they don't want to be...

    Learn how to evade diving 109s...Its all timing....Once you know you are being stalked dive to get speed whilst looking at your opponent on your 6..then as he comes in pull hard back on the stick and as he reaches his solution do a slight corkscrew..This will throw his aim totally and you get to live for another 20 seconds..you need to be able to do this whilst looking at him....so head for home again and wash and repeat...until you get home or a team mate helps you out...Once you have mastered this you will see aircraft dive on you 2 or 3 times and then go looking for an easier target...or they get frustrated and make a mistake..and then you may get your chance.

    To get the kills I look for 109s that have committed to other lower E/A and use speed to catch them slow at the top of their climb...You need to practice this and soon you will know when it will work or not before you have even started your move...I will always check the surrounding horizon before commiting this move...The threat is ALWAYS more important than the kill so if you see a high contact or co-alt contact then check it out before you commit to the kill...and if it turns out to be enemy forget your kill and go defensive again...

    Also don't follow the enemy to the deck if you can help it...vent them and then move on....most of the time they try to go home and either get ambushed by lower friendlies or they ditch..so don't be in a rush to kill all the time..we don't have the advantage of cannons so a vent is a good result...If you are lucky you'll get a PK or a burner but I personally can't aim for anything like that in a dogfight..I don't know how folks do...just to get a solution is key for me whilst they are trying to evade...try to hit a gnats testicle at 100 yrds on a moving target..forget it!...just get guns on the aircraft..anywhere on it

    Flying alone is very risky...and I have to fly like a frightened rabbit 90% of the time...but it can be done...and you can clock up the kills too...

    ATAG_Endless

    use the sun

    whenever the sun is low use it it is ridiculously effective in disorientating your enemy


    Overshoot using Flat scissors

    when you have a enemy on your tail and not much alt you can use a flat scissors to cause an overshoot

    flat scissors.gif




    Bf 109 convergence

    There are so many settings out there it's about finding whats right for you you might find that what works best for someone else doesn't mean it works best for you the simple answer is practice and persistence if you miss a few shots don't get discouraged and change your convergence set what feels right for you and practice it

    109 Variants

    E1 and E3 maintain 2300 rpm they are both highly prone to overheat don't fly and expect to dogfight well above 4000 with these two variants as the ATA falls over above 4000m

    E1 is the most nimble of all 109's competitive at alt from 0 - 4000m

    E4 maintain 2400 rpm stronger engine fights relatively well at alt 4000m +

    E4 B maintain 2400rpm useless above 4000m but very fast below that alt due to larger low alt supercharger than other variants

    E4 N the king of 109's maintain 2500 rpm climbs exceptionally well and very competitive above 4000m it is a strong opponent against spit IIA


    never exceed 2500 rpm for long periods its the quickest way to get oil on your window

    BF 109 radiators

    never exceed 2500 rpm depending on variant flown

    Bf 109

    1 # level flight
    oil rad 50-60%
    Water rad 65 - 75%
    Ata 1.2 or less

    2 # shallow dive attack
    Oil 70%
    Water 65-75%
    Ata full power

    3# shallow climb
    Oil 70 %
    Water 75-100 % 75% if climbing at 350kph and 75-100% if climbing at 300kph
    Ata 1.2

    4 # vertical climb
    Oil 75-100%
    Water 85-100%
    Ata full 1.3 or 1.4 at start of climb bring engine to idle at top of climb

    5 # out run opponent WEP
    Oil 45-75%
    Water 50-100% start at 50% and as you gain seperation open rad to 75 -100%
    Depending on engine temp as it will be on its limits
    Ata wep ( war emergency power )
    Shallow dive will reach 500 -520kph that is 310-323mph and will give you time to call for help as the spit will be struggling to pull you in

    6# out run opponent no WEP
    Oil 50 -75%
    Water 65-75% - open or close on your own judgement based on engine temps
    Ata full 100% throttle will reach 490-500 kph on the deck .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ATAG_Endless; Dec-16-2015 at 22:32.


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    Re: 109 maneuvers By gloriousRuse and RAF74 Buzzsaw

    Hi ATAG_Endless,

    nice one

    now we need somebody that can trancelate this in german

    regards

    Little_D
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    My comment would be:
    1.- Patience.
    2.- Think.
    3.- Patience.
    4.- Think.
    5.- Patience.
    6.- Think.

    If you are not sure you will win, do not engage and repeat #1.
    If you are sure you will loose, run.

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Thank you very much for this Bible.

    I got a same Bible in Hellenic (Greek)

    Bible of {53rd} Squadron

    Link
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ead.php?t=4645

    Thanks again for this Thread... very helpfull

    I whould like to see more like this one post...

    large post like this...
    Last edited by sw1ive; Dec-14-2015 at 15:20.

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    good stuff endless, very good thread!

    i have some videos to share, some tricks that can eventually keep you alive while flying 109


    Chandelle:
    once you get hang of it, you will use chandelle quite often in cliffs.
    scenario - RAF sneaking up on your low six, you have altitude advantage and some energy to work with... spiral climb, wait for him to stall, go down and introduce yourself

    examples:







    Rope-A-Dope
    while performing rope-a-dope you need to have superior energy advantage over your opponent

    example:



    Rolling and flat scissors:

    you really shouldn't put yourself at that position in the first place, but when s**t hits the fan, you might want to use these to bleed speed and force overshoot.
    scenario - enemy close or attacking with energy advantage

    examples:

    Rolling and flat scissors combo





    Rolling scissors (IL-2 BoS video)





    Using high g forces to gain advantage:

    when blacking out, 109 is more forgiving than spit or hurricane.

    scenario - mostly high altitude and high speed dogfights

    example:




    Last ditch effort maneuvers:

    scenario - just a second ago you thought joining that low level furball is great idea, you feel proud while scoring hits on a venting spit without wingtip, aileron, left elevator and pilot,
    but now you're low and slow and you see something brown coming fast at you. you hope its G50, but its not.
    not even second later you see tracers flying around cockpit, suddenly its too hot, you slowly start panicking and thoughts of where to spawn next just crossed your mind.
    you begin to realize you have no options left (chances to survive are slim, if any...)
    the mighty "eternal mistake" suddenly seems like good idea, but consider chopping throttle, adding some rolls and kicking that rudder while pulling up

    example:



    S!
    Last edited by 9./JG52 gr00ve; Jul-22-2017 at 19:10.
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Thank you all for this thread! Some very useful tips and explanations, now just need to figure out how to put them into practice

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat.../dp/0870210599

    Learn it. Love it. Live it.

    My copy is autographed (and dog-eared). When I heard him speak at a Warbirds convention, Shaw (callsign: Mouse), noting all the copies of his book in the audience, began with "let's all turn in our hymnals to page..." The room fell out laughing.
    Vadr
    Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

    "Most pilots expect their airplanes to perform. The Me 109 expects its pilot to perform." -- A. Galland


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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Endless View Post
    All credit goes to The Expert pilots Flying among us for all this brilliant information and quotes i have compiled into a single post

    The Displacement Roll


    Untitled.jpg

    4b) Roll out to his high six. You can follow him all the way until he stops turning by moderating the rate of your roll. Chances are you'll have the energy advantage, and can afford to climb longer than he can afford to break turn. Finish a roll to right side up and level as he stops turning, and you'll find yourself at his high six. A solid move that effectively resets the game...but now he has even less energy thanks to that break turn, and has fewer options when you come in for the next attack.

    Hi Endless -

    Thanks a lot for your great post! I'm studying it closely and had a question about the displacement roll. I'm having a hard time picturing in my head what step 4b (quoted above) looks like. Would you be able to point me to a video of someone taking this option? I think 4a and 4c are a bit more straight forward. I'm sure I'll have more questions but thanks again for sharing!

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post
    Hi Endless -

    Thanks a lot for your great post! I'm studying it closely and had a question about the displacement roll. I'm having a hard time picturing in my head what step 4b (quoted above) looks like. Would you be able to point me to a video of someone taking this option? I think 4a and 4c are a bit more straight forward. I'm sure I'll have more questions but thanks again for sharing!
    Somewhat different plane set but this manouver (for which there are multiple uses) is explained very nicely here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guVMVY2C6mM

    S!
    Last edited by ATAG_Dave; Jan-30-2017 at 18:18.

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Nicley done!

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Very good read.

    May I just ask, what is the best climb speed (Vy) for the 109?

    Can't find it. I feel like it's between 250 and 300 kmh but not sure. It's a good thing to know though, if you're at equal E but far enough away from the enemy that he can't get a solution on you.
    remember kids, they're evil. they're the baddies. never let them forget

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Incog View Post
    Very good read.

    May I just ask, what is the best climb speed (Vy) for the 109?

    Can't find it. I feel like it's between 250 and 300 kmh but not sure. It's a good thing to know though, if you're at equal E but far enough away from the enemy that he can't get a solution on you.
    The 109E-4 climbs best at approx. 250 kmh... but that is not the speed you should climb at when a Spit is following you. At that speed, he can eliminate the horizontal separation, and even though he will be below you, he will be able to pull up his nose and get a snapshot.

    It is best to climb at approx. 325-350 kmh when running away from a Spit... but again, make sure he doesn't have more speed or he will catch you and get a shot.

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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    The 109E-4 climbs best at approx. 250 kmh... but that is not the speed you should climb at when a Spit is following you. At that speed, he can eliminate the horizontal separation, and even though he will be below you, he will be able to pull up his nose and get a snapshot.

    It is best to climb at approx. 325-350 kmh when running away from a Spit... but again, make sure he doesn't have more speed or he will catch you and get a shot.
    thank you
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    I'd like to pose a few questions about the Chandelle or variants thereof.

    I wish I recorded my duel but I’ll do my best to describe the most salient points. Yesterday, I was flying an E-4/N Derated against a Spitfire Ia (100 oct). He spotted me first around Deal. We were both around ~4km in altitude but when I finally spotted him behind me about 1km away, he seemed to have a modest energy advantage over me (likely dove from about 4.5km or 5km). I gently dipped my nose down and pointed towards France.

    I basically dragged him all the way to Calais, keeping a distance of 3-4km between us (at least that’s what Tab 7-1 told me), at co-alt. By the time we hit the coast of Calais, we were both at about 2.5km altitude. Thinking that our energy state was basically equal at this point and being comfortable with the 3-4km separation, I slowly began to execute the Chandelle via a gentle right hand climbing turn, slowly trading speed for altitude until about ~250kph which I tried to maintain (should I be more aggressive here?).

    We “merged” by the time I completed half a circle, until he ended up on my low 4 o clock, around 500m lower than me. The merge was scarier than I expected because he seemed to be able to retain enough energy to briefly point his nose at me and take a shot (though he missed). Nonetheless, his nose leveled out so I continued the gentle right hand turn. However, I could not get him off of my low 4 o clock position. Rather than flopping, he seemed to be able to climb with me and maintain the ~500m altitude separation as well, which I found out is not enough for me to get an angle on him should I choose to roll over and dive. I tried rolling over, and got into a pretty dangerous situation in which I wasn’t able to recover from the dive quickly enough to get my nose pointed up at him, while he can cut my dive easily and got a gun solution – fortunately he missed again. Note that I tried to make some sort of move when we hit around 5.5km in altitude, because I’ve heard that beyond 6km the Spitfire Ia (100 oct) climbs and retains E better.

    Whenever I tried to get a gun solution after doing a Chandelle and found myself in a tough situation, I hit the reset button by disengaging and gaining more separation at co-alt before attempting the Chandelle again. This went on for what seemed like 20+ minutes over Calais and I tried the Chandelle 5 or 6 times (the server was pretty empty so we were free to duel). I just could not figure out a move that would allow me to get a clean solution and E advantage after the initial climb.

    Please let me know if you have any observations or advice you can share. In YouTube videos I’ve seen, Spits seemed to flop more quickly / 109s seems to gain a greater altitude advantage, but I was not able to reproduce those results. I’m all ears to tips to help me execute the Chandelle more effectively, as well as follow-up moves to try if the altitude difference is not sufficient for a nice roll-over dive for a clean shot.

    Also, if you believe that executing the Chandelle is not the right answer in this case, what would you suggest?

    Thanks all in advance!
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post

    I basically dragged him all the way to Calais, keeping a distance of 3-4km between us (at least that’s what Tab 7-1 told me), at co-alt. By the time we hit the coast of Calais, we were both at about 2.5km altitude. Thinking that our energy state was basically equal at this point and being comfortable with the 3-4km separation, I slowly began to execute the Chandelle via a gentle right hand climbing turn, slowly trading speed for altitude until about ~250kph which I tried to maintain (should I be more aggressive here?).


    Thanks all in advance!
    You have to execute that Chandelle quickly, getting into a headon position as fast as you can and point your nose below the enemy to regain as much speed as you can get before a merge. You're not going into a real headon, you're just looking for a better tactical situation and prepare to avoid his fire. Then in a merge steep and aggressive Chandelle again, almost vertical with a slow spiral at the end waiting for your enemy to shoot (you should avoid that by tightening turn hanging on your prop basically), to stall or to continue in horizontal turn trying to pick up some speed.
    No spitfire will be able to follow that if you managed to pick up speed and 1.5 to 2 km distance should be enough for that. He might try a shot but the 109 is more controllable at low speed and you should easily avoid his nose (guns) pointing at you.
    I'll make a video if I find some track with that maneuver.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post
    I'd like to pose a few questions about the Chandelle or variants thereof.

    I wish I recorded my duel but I’ll do my best to describe the most salient points. Yesterday, I was flying an E-4/N Derated against a Spitfire Ia (100 oct). He spotted me first around Deal. We were both around ~4km in altitude but when I finally spotted him behind me about 1km away, he seemed to have a modest energy advantage over me (likely dove from about 4.5km or 5km). I gently dipped my nose down and pointed towards France.

    I basically dragged him all the way to Calais, keeping a distance of 3-4km between us (at least that’s what Tab 7-1 told me), at co-alt. By the time we hit the coast of Calais, we were both at about 2.5km altitude. Thinking that our energy state was basically equal at this point and being comfortable with the 3-4km separation, I slowly began to execute the Chandelle via a gentle right hand climbing turn, slowly trading speed for altitude until about ~250kph which I tried to maintain (should I be more aggressive here?).

    We “merged” by the time I completed half a circle, until he ended up on my low 4 o clock, around 500m lower than me. The merge was scarier than I expected because he seemed to be able to retain enough energy to briefly point his nose at me and take a shot (though he missed). Nonetheless, his nose leveled out so I continued the gentle right hand turn. However, I could not get him off of my low 4 o clock position. Rather than flopping, he seemed to be able to climb with me and maintain the ~500m altitude separation as well, which I found out is not enough for me to get an angle on him should I choose to roll over and dive. I tried rolling over, and got into a pretty dangerous situation in which I wasn’t able to recover from the dive quickly enough to get my nose pointed up at him, while he can cut my dive easily and got a gun solution – fortunately he missed again. Note that I tried to make some sort of move when we hit around 5.5km in altitude, because I’ve heard that beyond 6km the Spitfire Ia (100 oct) climbs and retains E better.

    Whenever I tried to get a gun solution after doing a Chandelle and found myself in a tough situation, I hit the reset button by disengaging and gaining more separation at co-alt before attempting the Chandelle again. This went on for what seemed like 20+ minutes over Calais and I tried the Chandelle 5 or 6 times (the server was pretty empty so we were free to duel). I just could not figure out a move that would allow me to get a clean solution and E advantage after the initial climb.

    Please let me know if you have any observations or advice you can share. In YouTube videos I’ve seen, Spits seemed to flop more quickly / 109s seems to gain a greater altitude advantage, but I was not able to reproduce those results. I’m all ears to tips to help me execute the Chandelle more effectively, as well as follow-up moves to try if the altitude difference is not sufficient for a nice roll-over dive for a clean shot.

    Also, if you believe that executing the Chandelle is not the right answer in this case, what would you suggest?

    Thanks all in advance!
    basically, you want to keep him co-E and you even want to make him lose some of it in a really shallow climb. 109 should outclimb spit under those circumstances. at right moment, climb turn into him and position your self at his high 1 (or 11), that will leave him with 2 options.
    1. to climb into you bleeding all his E in which case you should initiate steep chandele which will bleed everything he have left and he will flop.
    2. to try and keep his E and stay below you in which case you should go offensive.

    more or less similar situation:
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by vranac View Post
    You have to execute that Chandelle quickly, getting into a headon position as fast as you can and point your nose below the enemy to regain as much speed as you can get before a merge...
    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 gr00ve View Post
    basically, you want to keep him co-E and you even want to make him lose some of it in a really shallow climb. 109 should outclimb spit under those circumstances. at right moment, climb turn into him and position your self at his high 1 (or 11), that will leave him with 2 options.
    1. to climb into you bleeding all his E in which case you should initiate steep chandele which will bleed everything he have left and he will flop.
    2. to try and keep his E and stay below you in which case you should go offensive.

    vrnac and gr00ve, thanks for the helpful tips! I will try to give it a go this weekend. Cheers.
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    Re: 109 Beginner's Tactical Bible

    Thanks a lot for the tips. Indeed very helpful .

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