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Thread: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

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    Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Hi,

    I want to know how does one effectively utilize the flaps and trim in a dogfight. In the British planes, flaps can be deployed to tighten the turn, but in the German planes, flaps are too slow to deploy. And where does trim fit in?

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Hi Baaz,

    If you get into a turn fight with a 109, you are 90% sure to get shot down flaps or no flaps.
    If you are in a British plane, you don't normally need to use flaps to tighten the turn.

    In any case, flaps will eat energy but they will help, specially in low speed scenarios. Trim, I'm not so sure helps at all.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Don't use flaps, the flaps on the Hurricane and the spitfire are split flaps type, meaning that they are lile a barn door and they only increase drag you don't have any lift benefits. It will slow you down and kill your E if you have missed your shot you will be a sitting duck. You don't need it both have excellent turn radius if you can't get inside his turn because your too fast pull slightly up and come back down (high yoyo) if you don't have the angle dropping the flaps won't change a thing, abort your pass.

    Always keep your aircraft in trim or close to, that mean for the airspeed your in, especially when you shoot. Otherwise your bullet don't fly out straight out of your guns, if the question was will the trim help you in the turn yes it will but watch out for the black out.
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_((dB)) View Post
    Don't use flaps, the flaps on the Hurricane and the spitfire are split flaps type, meaning that they are lile a barn door and they only increase drag you don't have any lift benefits. It will slow you down and kill your E if you have missed your shot you will be a sitting duck. You don't need it both have excellent turn radius if you can't get inside his turn because your too fast pull slightly up and come back down (high yoyo) if you don't have the angle dropping the flaps won't change a thing, abort your pass.

    Always keep your aircraft in trim or close to, that mean for the airspeed your in, especially when you shoot. Otherwise your bullet don't fly out straight out of your guns, if the question was will the trim help you in the turn yes it will but watch out for the black out.
    I disagree with this. Instead of the blanket statement "Don't use flaps", substitute with "Think about what flaps will do in this mess I've got myself in..." Flaps do one thing: They change the shape of the wing in order to reduce the stall speed of the airplane. Changing this "camber" (among other technical terms), always has a cost, usually drag resulting in the inability to accelerate out of the "mess you're in". If you extend flaps in a high-speed condition and fail to "pull G's" to the edge of the envelope, you might as well have left the combat flap setting alone like DB recommends.

    But, if the "mess you're in" requires you to turn tighter or fly slower "Right Now" than your adversary, consider using flaps but remember that you are now committed to out-flying or out shooting the enemy. The example that comes to mind is the G-50 on your tail which you cannot shake. You have few options except a test of skill at maneuvering slow flight near stall speed. Flaps will help reduce your speed if you know how much flap to extend and have practiced maneuvering slow flight. An Hurricane at 28° of flaps can give you a fighting chance against the G-50 or the JU-87 in a slow speed turning contest in our sim. I have sucessfully out-turned both of these, but I have also been defeated by both of these because the pilot was more skilled than I was on that day. Without flaps, I wouldn't have had a chance.

    Here's my personal criteria for using combat flaps in RAF Fighters:

    Spitfire: Flaps are either UP or DOWN, and the Mk III/XII Merlins don't have enough power to maintain altitude in maneuvering turns. Descent into the ground is nearly inevitable but still may be preferable to .50 cal coming through the windshield. It is an act of desperation for survival but should not be dismissed.

    Hurricane: With a Stuka or G-50 in pursuit, and when close to the ground, I am inclined to extend three seconds of flaps to 28° and commit to a turn at stall speed +1 mph (on the burble). This takes practice and the end of a "Map" is an excellent time to try it out without sacrificing your score. The Stuka will usually fall behind and victory is a real possibility. The G-50 seems to keep up but has a good chance of snapping, allowing a quick escape. I like to be close to the ground during this madness in hopes that he will crash and I won't.

    At altitude, this technique is less effective than the maneuvering dive since you can convert potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (speed) in the dive if you don't get killed on the way down. Speed is life...

    Take any shot you can! There is no advantage to dying with fully loaded guns. If you can hit the enemy, he may take a moment to assess the damage, giving you a chance to escape. You might even get lucky and cause critical damage. One thing's for sure: If you don't pull the trigger, you won't hit anything!

    Trim simply reduces your input pressure when aiming your guns so over trimming during rapid speed changes can be as bad as not trimming enough. Bullets always fly straight out the end of the barrel, but moving the rifle while breaking the precision shot is not desirable. Swinging the shotgun barrel towards a moving target however, is essential in skeet or trap. So, do you look at the enemy as a stable target (12 O'Clock all trimmed up), or a clay pigeon (Deflection shot with necessary backpressure)? Of course, we vary these techniques all the time so once again, Practice, Practice, Practice!
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    You might use them if a 109 is scissoring desperately on the deck and you want to slow down and get a few extra shots in, but I prefer not to risk it. Speed and altitude are life. It's better to just keep your speed and do BnZ dive attacks.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_NakedSquirrel View Post
    You might use them if a 109 is scissoring desperately on the deck and you want to slow down and get a few extra shots in, but I prefer not to risk it. Speed and altitude are life. It's better to just keep your speed and do BnZ dive attacks.
    Yeah, I agree, (Sort of) but this is the situation where you do not require flaps in order to survive. In an offensive pursuit you can do whatever suits you to retain the advantage. Boom & Zoom, mild yo-yo, and even flaps are viable alternatives if you know what you're doing and have practiced your maneuver. The problems start when you try something you're not trained for. It might sound like a good idea in the ATAG Forums, but...
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_NakedSquirrel View Post
    You might use them if a 109 is scissoring desperately on the deck and you want to slow down and get a few extra shots in, but I prefer not to risk it. Speed and altitude are life. It's better to just keep your speed and do BnZ dive attacks.
    I find its better to flat or rolling sissor without flaps in the 109. A sissor fight is something the 109 is very good at and should win if the pilot keeps his wits about him.

    I rarely use flaps during a fight. Occasionally I may to pull a bit more lead for a shot, but only if I have plenty of altitude to regain lost speed should the fight start going badly.
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Fidget View Post
    I disagree with this. Instead of the blanket statement "Don't use flaps", substitute with "Think about what flaps will do in this mess I've got myself in..." Flaps do one thing: They change the shape of the wing in order to reduce the stall speed of the airplane. Changing this "camber" (among other technical terms), always has a cost, usually drag resulting in the inability to accelerate out of the "mess you're in". If you extend flaps in a high-speed condition and fail to "pull G's" to the edge of the envelope, you might as well have left the combat flap setting alone like DB recommends.

    But, if the "mess you're in" requires you to turn tighter or fly slower "Right Now" than your adversary, consider using flaps but remember that you are now committed to out-flying or out shooting the enemy. The example that comes to mind is the G-50 on your tail which you cannot shake. You have few options except a test of skill at maneuvering slow flight near stall speed. Flaps will help reduce your speed if you know how much flap to extend and have practiced maneuvering slow flight. An Hurricane at 28° of flaps can give you a fighting chance against the G-50 or the JU-87 in a slow speed turning contest in our sim. I have sucessfully out-turned both of these, but I have also been defeated by both of these because the pilot was more skilled than I was on that day. Without flaps, I wouldn't have had a chance.

    Here's my personal criteria for using combat flaps in RAF Fighters:

    Spitfire: Flaps are either UP or DOWN, and the Mk III/XII Merlins don't have enough power to maintain altitude in maneuvering turns. Descent into the ground is nearly inevitable but still may be preferable to .50 cal coming through the windshield. It is an act of desperation for survival but should not be dismissed.

    Hurricane: With a Stuka or G-50 in pursuit, and when close to the ground, I am inclined to extend three seconds of flaps to 28° and commit to a turn at stall speed +1 mph (on the burble). This takes practice and the end of a "Map" is an excellent time to try it out without sacrificing your score. The Stuka will usually fall behind and victory is a real possibility. The G-50 seems to keep up but has a good chance of snapping, allowing a quick escape. I like to be close to the ground during this madness in hopes that he will crash and I won't.

    At altitude, this technique is less effective than the maneuvering dive since you can convert potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (speed) in the dive if you don't get killed on the way down. Speed is life...

    Take any shot you can! There is no advantage to dying with fully loaded guns. If you can hit the enemy, he may take a moment to assess the damage, giving you a chance to escape. You might even get lucky and cause critical damage. One thing's for sure: If you don't pull the trigger, you won't hit anything!

    Trim simply reduces your input pressure when aiming your guns so over trimming during rapid speed changes can be as bad as not trimming enough. Bullets always fly straight out the end of the barrel, but moving the rifle while breaking the precision shot is not desirable. Swinging the shotgun barrel towards a moving target however, is essential in skeet or trap. So, do you look at the enemy as a stable target (12 O'Clock all trimmed up), or a clay pigeon (Deflection shot with necessary backpressure)? Of course, we vary these techniques all the time so once again, Practice, Practice, Practice!
    Thanks for the reply Fidget. The hurricane has only up or down flaps I think, so how does one custom set the flaps at 28 degrees?

    Another question(maybe this is off topic) but I want to ask what to do in a 1vs1 Me 109 F4 vs Yak 1 even energy dogfight situation(1000m)? In BOS, I usually play in Quick mission builder, the Yak starts to turn and I try to keep up with a series of high Yo-Yo's but what happens is that I run out of energy and the yak keeps on turning without showing any signs of energy loss. It's easy when one has the company of ai wingmen but without them, the Yak just turns and turns and does nothing else and if I try to gain altitude, he is at my six. I am not a pro and my maneuvers during combat are mostly high and low yo-yo's. it's difficult to decide when to perform other ACMs in the heat of a dogfight. From what I have seen on the internet, everyone talks about the strengths and weaknesses of the machines and about gaining altitude or turning, what if there isn't enough time for a 109 to gain altitude and what about the air combat maneuvers like barrel rolls etc and how to perform an energy efficient turn?
    Plus, the 109 seems difficult to handle in BOS as compared to COD, it stalls and spins way too often....

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Fidget View Post
    I disagree with this. Instead of the blanket statement "Don't use flaps", substitute with "Think about what flaps will do in this mess I've got myself in..." Flaps do one thing: They change the shape of the wing in order to reduce the stall speed of the airplane. Changing this "camber" (among other technical terms), always has a cost, usually drag resulting in the inability to accelerate out of the "mess you're in". If you extend flaps in a high-speed condition and fail to "pull G's" to the edge of the envelope, you might as well have left the combat flap setting alone like DB recommends.

    But, if the "mess you're in" requires you to turn tighter or fly slower "Right Now" than your adversary, consider using flaps but remember that you are now committed to out-flying or out shooting the enemy. The example that comes to mind is the G-50 on your tail which you cannot shake. You have few options except a test of skill at maneuvering slow flight near stall speed. Flaps will help reduce your speed if you know how much flap to extend and have practiced maneuvering slow flight. An Hurricane at 28° of flaps can give you a fighting chance against the G-50 or the JU-87 in a slow speed turning contest in our sim. I have sucessfully out-turned both of these, but I have also been defeated by both of these because the pilot was more skilled than I was on that day. Without flaps, I wouldn't have had a chance.

    Here's my personal criteria for using combat flaps in RAF Fighters:

    Spitfire: Flaps are either UP or DOWN, and the Mk III/XII Merlins don't have enough power to maintain altitude in maneuvering turns. Descent into the ground is nearly inevitable but still may be preferable to .50 cal coming through the windshield. It is an act of desperation for survival but should not be dismissed.

    Hurricane: With a Stuka or G-50 in pursuit, and when close to the ground, I am inclined to extend three seconds of flaps to 28° and commit to a turn at stall speed +1 mph (on the burble). This takes practice and the end of a "Map" is an excellent time to try it out without sacrificing your score. The Stuka will usually fall behind and victory is a real possibility. The G-50 seems to keep up but has a good chance of snapping, allowing a quick escape. I like to be close to the ground during this madness in hopes that he will crash and I won't.

    At altitude, this technique is less effective than the maneuvering dive since you can convert potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (speed) in the dive if you don't get killed on the way down. Speed is life...

    Take any shot you can! There is no advantage to dying with fully loaded guns. If you can hit the enemy, he may take a moment to assess the damage, giving you a chance to escape. You might even get lucky and cause critical damage. One thing's for sure: If you don't pull the trigger, you won't hit anything!

    Trim simply reduces your input pressure when aiming your guns so over trimming during rapid speed changes can be as bad as not trimming enough. Bullets always fly straight out the end of the barrel, but moving the rifle while breaking the precision shot is not desirable. Swinging the shotgun barrel towards a moving target however, is essential in skeet or trap. So, do you look at the enemy as a stable target (12 O'Clock all trimmed up), or a clay pigeon (Deflection shot with necessary backpressure)? Of course, we vary these techniques all the time so once again, Practice, Practice, Practice!
    That's a better way to say explain it, when you take the time
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Baaz View Post
    Thanks for the reply Fidget. The hurricane has only up or down flaps I think, so how does one custom set the flaps at 28 degrees?

    Another question(maybe this is off topic) but I want to ask what to do in a 1vs1 Me 109 F4 vs Yak 1 even energy dogfight situation(1000m)? In BOS, I usually play in Quick mission builder, the Yak starts to turn and I try to keep up with a series of high Yo-Yo's but what happens is that I run out of energy and the yak keeps on turning without showing any signs of energy loss. It's easy when one has the company of ai wingmen but without them, the Yak just turns and turns and does nothing else and if I try to gain altitude, he is at my six. I am not a pro and my maneuvers during combat are mostly high and low yo-yo's. it's difficult to decide when to perform other ACMs in the heat of a dogfight. From what I have seen on the internet, everyone talks about the strengths and weaknesses of the machines and about gaining altitude or turning, what if there isn't enough time for a 109 to gain altitude and what about the air combat maneuvers like barrel rolls etc and how to perform an energy efficient turn?
    Plus, the 109 seems difficult to handle in BOS as compared to COD, it stalls and spins way too often....
    Para 1: Assign flaps to a control AXIS. Flaps may then be incrementally extended, usually taking three seconds to get to 28°. (Recommended Takeoff Flaps)
    Para 2&3: I would rather chew aluminum foil than participate in BOS. (Personal Preference)
    Last edited by Baffin; Apr-21-2016 at 20:01.
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Someone mentioned BoS, and it seems the Yaks are incapable of damaging their flaps sometimes. Just curious...Is there a Maximum flap extension speed (or Vfe) in the game? I've never really tried to overspeed them.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    The use of flaps and trim are very important, they should be used on specific occasions.

    For flaps the classic example is when we want in a 109 overclimb a spitfire, we will open a bit the flaps when we are near the stall, the Spit should stall under us and we then pass in an advantageous situation.
    The flaps can also be used in scissors, or to get more angle to aim in certain situations, or even to follow in turn an enemy (thing to be evaluated well, however).

    The trim (especially the elevator) is fundamental; i use it constantly, every 4-5 seconds.
    It's very imporant to have a very precise and stable plane to shoot well, and in this trim helps a lot.

    Obviously all this said is after a good use of Energy, a good SA and teamwork. These things are the basic, fundamental things to do hunting.

    These things are the basic, fundamental things to do hunting.
    A good pilot is one who knows and knows how to use the basic things.
    A great pilot (badass) is the one who apart from the basic things knows how to bring the aircraft to the limit (using to precisely flaps and trims).

    NB: i honestly don't understand how anyone could write that the flaps are not so important, and trim even less.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by 5th_Hellrider View Post
    These things are the basic, fundamental things to do hunting.
    A good pilot is one who knows and knows how to use the basic things.
    A great pilot (badass) is the one who apart from the basic things knows how to bring the aircraft to the limit (using to precisely flaps and trims).

    NB: i honestly don't understand how anyone could write that the flaps are not so important, and trim even less.
    For me it's the complete opposite
    A good pilot know when to engage and when to disengage.
    A great pilot (badass) stay alive.


    There is no problem with using the flap in extreme cases. If you want to use them doing scissors low in the deck by all mean do it, you'll be fun to play with
    Last edited by ATAG_((dB)); Apr-20-2016 at 14:51.
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Just to clarify, in the RAF planes (I have very little experience so far with the Axis planes), the Hurricane's flaps can be set incrementally, but the Spitfire's cannot, they are either fully up or fully down.
    I agree about the importance of trim, it needs to be adjusted almost every time you change your angle of attack for more than a few seconds.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    On the lower right side of the cockpit of a Hurricane next to where your knee would be you have the graduated flap scale, The flap operating valve works in an Up-Neutral-Down manner, if you select down you can watch the scale pointer move down informing you of how much flap is currently operating, if you put the selector valve back to Neutral when you have the amount you want on the scale the flap will stay at this setting until you either select UP or Down, theoretically you can use it in combat but put simply DON'T the drag is massive and you lose energy very fast!

    A Hurricane turns best around the 140mph @s/l mark, but if your going this slow your already in serious trouble, you want to maintain a 160-220 mph range in the dogfight, this is where the Hurricane is most manoeuvrable, it rolls better at this speed and will climb and roll unlike when your chugging about with flaps down!

    If you have a 109 behind maintain your turn and try to keep around 160mph, you can sustain this he can't , or you can tighten it if you have to and as the speed decays and the turn tightens he will stall if he tries to pull enough lead for a shot, if it's a G50 do a tight turning shallow spiral climb, G50's bleed energy badly, if he can't get guns on you in the first 10 secs he will slowly fall away and you will find yourself gaining on him ending up on his tail if he's daft enough to keep chasing you!

    If it's a Stuka stick the nose down trim out, and go like hell, err or as fast as a Hurricane will go anyhow, a gentle weave as you extend makes you a difficult target, if you feel you must dogfight, then rolling scissors, Stukas roll like a dead whale in the Surf!

    109's often try to scissors with you, I love this as I blat them as they cross my nose and then pitch up roll and drop on them again, If you see a 109 with his flaps down try not to laugh and fill it with holes for being stupid, the last thing you want to do in a 109 is get slow with a Hurricane, a 109 with flaps down is a gift, you have the energy advantage for a change!
    Last edited by Gromit; Apr-20-2016 at 14:46.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Baaz View Post
    Hi,

    I want to know how does one effectively utilize the flaps and trim in a dogfight. In the British planes, flaps can be deployed to tighten the turn, but in the German planes, flaps are too slow to deploy. And where does trim fit in?
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    On the lower right side of the cockpit of a Hurricane next to where your knee would be you have the graduated flap scale, The flap operating valve works in an Up-Neutral-Down manner, if you select down you can watch the scale pointer move down informing you of how much flap is currently operating, if you put the selector valve back to Neutral when you have the amount you want on the scale the flap will stay at this setting until you either select UP or Down, theoretically you can use it in combat but put simply DON'T the drag is massive and you lose energy very fast!

    A Hurricane turns best around the 140mph @s/l mark, but if your going this slow your already in serious trouble, you want to maintain a 160-220 mph range in the dogfight, this is where the Hurricane is most manoeuvrable, it rolls better at this speed and will climb and roll unlike when your chugging about with flaps down!

    If you have a 109 behind maintain your turn and try to keep around 160mph, you can sustain this he can't , or you can tighten it if you have to and as the speed decays and the turn tightens he will stall if he tries to pull enough lead for a shot, if it's a G50 do a tight turning shallow spiral climb, G50's bleed energy badly, if he can't get guns on you in the first 10 secs he will slowly fall away and you will find yourself gaining on him ending up on his tail if he's daft enough to keep chasing you!

    If it's a Stuka stick the nose down trim out, and go like hell, err or as fast as a Hurricane will go anyhow, a gentle weave as you extend makes you a difficult target, if you feel you must dogfight, then rolling scissors, Stukas roll like a dead whale in the Surf!

    109's often try to scissors with you, I love this as I blat them as they cross my nose and then pitch up roll and drop on them again, If you see a 109 with his flaps down try not to laugh and fill it with holes for being stupid, the last thing you want to do in a 109 is get slow with a Hurricane, a 109 with flaps down is a gift, you have the energy advantage for a change!
    This is all excellent tactical advice, but this discussion deals with the necessity for using flaps as a last resort. At Vs you're out of ideas, cannot climb, and have no alternative to flying slower than your adversary. Flaps and reducing speed will reduce the radius of turn... that's physics. The problem here lies in the fact that you are in a bad situation to begin with from which there is no normal escape.

    It's my opinion that the pilot with the best skill and training will most likely prevail, no matter what the aircraft configuration is.
    Last edited by Baffin; Apr-21-2016 at 07:43.
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  27. #18
    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    This is why I suggest you don't use flaps in a Hurricane, During beta testing I used the lighthouse near deal as a landmark and completed turns timing how long it took to do a complete 360 degree turn, lighthouse in gun sight and turn until the lighthouse is back in the gun sight, fastest was if I recall 13 seconds at 140mph left turn, dropping flaps increased the run time by roughly 2-3 seconds and airspeed was very hard to maintain in the process, indicating the radius of the turn was larger, simply because the extra drag prevented you from maintaining the turn without losing speed and stalling, in other words more drag meant you could not pull as tight without stall.

    The Hurricane wing is a high lift aerofoil, it doesn't need flaps to improve its turn rate and in reality the flaps were more an airbrake for landing.

    Now whether this was an absolute truth in reality I am not prepared to commit myself, I know from pilots notes etc, you didn't use the flaps, but in game this was the results of testing, I was in discussion with Buzz for a while as I found the slow speed handling of the Hurricane to be a bit off, it was almost impossible at the time to approach the correct stall speed, Buzz being as diligent as he always is looked at the evidence, corrected some of my assumptions with facts and resolved the issue.

    The tests I did , noted above, were after he had sorted the problem.
    Last edited by Gromit; Apr-21-2016 at 14:12.

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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    This is why I suggest you don't use flaps in a Hurricane, During beta testing I used the lighthouse near deal as a landmark and completed turns timing how long it took to do a complete 360 degree turn, lighthouse in gun sight and turn until the lighthouse is back in the gun sight, fastest was if I recall 13 seconds at 140mph left turn, dropping flaps increased the run time by roughly 2-3 seconds and airspeed was very hard to maintain in the process, indicating the radius of the turn was larger, simply because the extra drag prevented you from maintaining the turn without losing speed and stalling, in other words more drag meant you could not pull as tight without stall.

    The Hurricane wing is a high lift aerofoil, it doesn't need flaps to improve its turn rate and in reality the flaps were more an airbrake for landing.

    Now whether this was an absolute truth in reality I am not prepared to commit myself, I know from pilots notes etc, you didn't use the flaps, but in game this was the results of testing, I was in discussion with Buzz for a while as I found the slow speed handling of the Hurricane to be a bit off, it was almost impossible at the time to approach the correct stall speed, Buzz being as diligent as he always is looked at the evidence, corrected some of my assumptions with facts and resolved the issue.

    The tests I did , noted above, were after he had sorted the problem.
    I just went out at 1000' AGL over Manston on the Bomber server to test this out. Conditions were max power with constant altitude, flying at the edge of the stall. (by feel, not published speed) Flying over the runway helped with judging distances and time.

    My observations:

    1. If you don't practice it, you'll probably snap and die with or without flaps.
    2. Time to turn 360 degrees is close to identical with or without flaps at min speeds. 11 seconds, give or take.
    3. Radius of turn is perceptably less with flaps at 28 degrees on the edge of the stall.
    4. Holding the turn at the edge of the envelope is much easier with flaps at 28 degrees. Less tendency to snap.

    This is wholly unscientific, but that's what happened today.
    Last edited by Baffin; Apr-22-2016 at 15:09. Reason: Turn time. Thanks, Gromit!
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  29. #20
    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Something wrong there fidget, 60 seconds is extremely slow for a 360 turn, unless you meant 16?

    I tested different speeds and flap angles , left and right turns in a systematic manner, the results I got as I mentioned, try 140mph left turn, you should see 360 in roughly 13 seconds dependant on wind settings for the server.

    Rudder control is critical in the turn you have to experiment to optimise bank angle and use just enough rudder to prevent the slide. I did my tests at 200ft allowing me to use the lighthouse as the turn marker co alt on the cliff top.
    Last edited by Gromit; Apr-22-2016 at 11:01.

  30. #21
    Supporting Member Baffin's Avatar
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    Something wrong there fidget, 60 seconds is extremely slow for a 360 turn, unless you meant 16?

    I tested different speeds and flap angles , left and right turns in a systematic manner, the results I got as I mentioned, try 140mph left turn, you should see 360 in roughly 13 seconds dependant on wind settings for the server.

    Rudder control is critical in the turn you have to experiment to optimise bank angle and use just enough rudder to prevent the slide. I did my tests at 200ft allowing me to use the lighthouse as the turn marker co alt on the cliff top.
    Wow! Are you correct! I must have rolled out the old B-52 that day! I corrected the time to 11 seconds per circle. I don't know where 60 seconds came from...


    I just did the flight test again, duplicating your speed and time numbers for the clean, level turn. However, with the flaps at 28°, I could handle the turn safely at 110 MPH IAS. I got it down to 100 MPH, but it was right on the edge of the envelope and if it snapped at all, the game was over. No recovery possible.

    Once again though, the turn radius was incredibly tight below 110 MPH... It reminded me of single engine Cessna trainers. Almost sitting in one spot over the ground.

    Now, for practical application, I'd say that your clean turn makes more sense. But if that rascal behind you is about to pull lead on you, slower may be the only option and flaps may be necessary. Like most of this esoteric aerodynamic stuff, it's fun to practice and discuss, but in a gunfight, we do what we have to do...
    Last edited by Baffin; Apr-22-2016 at 15:35.
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    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    The method I used was fly toward the lighthouse, stabilise the selected speed then start the turn maintaining the speed, as the lighthouse passed through the gunsight after 1 turn I start the clock and do two full circles stopping the clock after the lighthouse passes through the second time, all the time maintaining a constant speed, then divide the time by two.

    I could get a better instantaneous turn at the expense of losing airspeed, but found 140mph to be optimum for tightest sustained turn, however at that speed you manoeuvrability was pretty poor, roll slows considerably and you cant climb at all, at 160mph the turn is almost as tight but you retain the ability to manoeuvre, stall speed is 80mph and if you try you can waft along at this speed flaps down with a silly AoA, would be great to do a carrier landing!

    Most important rule in a Hurricane is don't rush the old girl, she doesn't like any snap manoeuvre!
    Last edited by Gromit; Apr-22-2016 at 16:17.

  32. #23
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    The method I used was fly toward the lighthouse, stabilise the selected speed then start the turn maintaining the speed, as the lighthouse passed through the gunsight after 1 turn I start the clock and do two full circles stopping the clock after the lighthouse passes through the second time, all the time maintaining a constant speed, then divide the time by two.

    I could get a better instantaneous turn at the expense of losing airspeed, but found 140mph to be optimum for tightest sustained turn, however at that speed you manoeuvrability was pretty poor, roll slows considerably and you cant climb at all, at 160mph the turn is almost as tight but you retain the ability to manoeuvre, stall speed is 80mph and if you try you can waft along at this speed flaps down with a silly AoA, would be great to do a carrier landing!

    Most important rule in a Hurricane is don't rush the old girl, she doesn't like any snap manoeuvre!
    The God of wood glue and fabric speaks! Greatly useful information throughout. Thanks chaps!!

    Kind Regards

    BOO
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    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

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  34. #24
    Supporting Member Baffin's Avatar
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    Quote Originally Posted by Boosterdog View Post
    The God of wood glue and fabric speaks! Greatly useful information throughout. Thanks chaps!!

    Kind Regards

    BOO
    You're Welcome! Very stimulating discussion all round!
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    Re: Using flaps and trim in a dogfight

    thank you for the discussion, very informative even after so long.

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