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Thread: Spit V vs 109F...

  1. #61
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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    colour coding
    20mm__2_.jpg

    20mm__1_.jpg

    I'll have a look at work for production info and british filling for 20mm ammo, as british munitions at that time were being filled with tnt/rdx mix not solely tnt. But i wont confirm this till i can get more info from munitions data record sheets.

    Will be intresting as Tetryl, Pentolite are about 20% more powerful than TnT

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    Combat pilot rel4y's Avatar
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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    These are the ones I have found as well, additionally this one. Oerlikon and Hispano munition seem to differ only in the casing not the projectile. A small RDX charge surrounding the fuse was probably used as a booster stage.

    20mm_Ammunition_Colour_Codes.jpg

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Quote Originally Posted by 235 Sqn. Coldstreamer (QJ-X) View Post
    colour coding
    20mm__2_.jpg

    20mm__1_.jpg

    I'll have a look at work for production info and british filling for 20mm ammo, as british munitions at that time were being filled with tnt/rdx mix not solely tnt. But i wont confirm this till i can get more info from munitions data record sheets.

    Will be intresting as Tetryl, Pentolite are about 20% more powerful than TnT
    The game does differentiate between types of explosives, and the power generated.

    There are ratings for the various explosive types used as filler in German, British, US, etc. HE rounds.

    Oleg is way ahead of you.

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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Quote Originally Posted by rel4y View Post
    ... does anybody have any reliable data on Hispano ammunition dimensions, production and explosives. It seems the US made ammo had Tetryl or Pentolite fillers while british shells had TNT fillers. Also the color code was apparently different.
    For the explosive filling, British Hispano rounds used tetryl; 10.2g in the HE round and 7.0g in the HE/I round.
    American HE/I rounds were the same as the British, though supposedly they had an alternate HE/I version with 6.5g of RDX.
    The original French rounds used pentolite; approximately 10g for the HE round and approximately 8g for the HE/T.

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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    For the explosive filling, British Hispano rounds used tetryl; 10.2g in the HE round and 7.0g in the HE/I round.
    American HE/I rounds were the same as the British, though supposedly they had an alternate HE/I version with 6.5g of RDX.
    The original French rounds used pentolite; approximately 10g for the HE round and approximately 8g for the HE/T.
    Hey!

    Whats your source? I am pretty sure the Brits used a TNT filler at least till 44. I found a bit of data on the dimensions and a bunch on aerodynamics.

    Hispano 3.png20 mm Daten.pngHispano shell 1.pngHispano shell 2.pngHispano shell 3.png

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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    The British used TNT in several of their Oerlikon-type 20-mm ammunition, but the Hispano rounds in service used tetryl.

    From numerous wartime manuals/documents.

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    Combat pilot rel4y's Avatar
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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Cool, thats interesting. Would you be so kind to post some of these manuals/documents, because its really hard to find anything primary about the british Hispano 20mm on the web. For US stuff there is a bunch around.

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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Can't really post anything at the moment - but 235 Sqn. Coldstreamer (QJ-X) posted an example above.

    Note the British HE and HE/I rounds have 'CE' stenciled on them. CE (Composition, Exploding) = tetryl

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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    There are a large number of variants... you can't make a sweeping generalization about which might be better, you need to examine each version in detail and decide which version is being compared to which version.

    For the 109F's, for example, you have the following:

    109F-1: DB601N engine, (same as the engine in the E-4N), one MG/FFM cannon with 60 rounds firing through the prop, plus the two LMG's.
    109F-2: DB601N engine, one MG/151/15mm cannon, (very high velocity, very accurate, but no high explosive rounds) firing through prop, plus two LMG's. Slightly reduced performance, higher stall speed, due to increased weight of larger cannon and ammunition
    109F-2 (Late): DB601N engine, one MG/151/20mm cannon, firing through prop, plus two LMG's. (increased weight)
    109F-2-Trop: Same as above, but with enlarged air intake filter (increased weight)
    109F-4: DB601E engine, rated at 1.30ata boost at 2500 rpm, one MG151/20mm cannon firing through prop, plus two LMG's. (increased weight over F-2, thus higher stall speed)
    109F-4-Trop: Same as above, but with enlarged air intake filter
    109F-4 (Late): DB601E engine, rated at 1.42ata boost at 2700 rpm, one MG151/20mm cannon firing through prop, plus two LMG's.
    109F-4 (Late)-Trop: Same as above, but with larger filter

    All the 109's had the fuselage/wing/tail design changes... these were primarily incorporated to provide a more aerodynamic frame, and higher speed, to allow better maneuver at the higher speeds which combat was now occurring, and which the 109F's were now capable of achieving. As part of this, there was a sacrifice in low speed maneuver... the F model had inferior low speed lateral maneuver than the E model. The F's Stall speed, with the higher weight, was also slightly higher than the E.

    For the Spitfires, you have the following:

    Spit IIB: Same as the IIA, but with reduced performance, higher stall speed due to 20mm gun and ammunition extra weight... Two 20mm Hispano cannon, 4 LMGs.
    Spit IIB (Late): Same as above, but with improved lateral maneuverability due to retro-fitted metal ailerons
    Spit VA: Merlin 45 rated at +12 boost/3000 rpm, eight LMGs, fabric ailerons (increased weight and higher stall speed over IIB)
    Spit VB: Merlin 45 rated at +12 boost/3000 rpm, two 20mm Hispano cannon, 4 LMGs, metal ailerons (increased weight and stall speed over VA)
    Spit VB (Late): Merlin 45 rated at +16 boost/3000 rpm, two 20mm Hispano cannon, 4 LMGs, metal ailerons
    Spit VB - Trop: Same as above with extra weight and reduced performance due to larger filter.

    Spitfires initially were equipped with fabric ailerons, but as the RAF noted in 1941 the 109F was more maneuverable at higher speeds, the metal ailerons were introduced to counter this advantage.

    So the fact is, when you look at all the models, comparisons are very much dependent on which version is compared to which.

    You'll need to wait till TF 5.0 is out to really find out.

    I will also say that you can see from the above list how much work is required... so I hope everyone is patient... TF 5.0 will be done as soon as our resources will allow.
    Is this the list of 109Fs that we can expect in next patch, also will 109F4Z make the list?

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    Supporting Member IIJG27Rich's Avatar
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    Re: Spit V vs 109F...

    This is my best chance to finally shoot something down, let's put it that way.

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