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Thread: Moving to 4K Textures

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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Moving to 4K Textures

    Hoping someone can help answer some questions for me. First and foremost, I'm not new to this. I use CC professionally via contracts in the aviation world (branding/livery design) and I've done some work for various FS related addons over the years. So I'm not looking for help in the content creation arena. My questions concern the max tex res the sim will use, if it has one, and what possible system impacts for various users could be seen as its just a 32bit app. The more system intensive renders become the more likely you are to see a CTD with 32bit RTE's, like FSX and P3D.

    I ask because I've taken the default 2K textures for the 109 and have completely rebuilt them from the ground up to support 4K lossless pixel imagery. I had to go in and basically hand-jam everything anew. Everything. What does 4K imagery brings to the table? Vastly improved textures for one. They're sharper, clearer, more defined and far more visually impressive. To put it into perspective, here is an example of the default CloD tex res with that of what I've done. And yes, these are the actual tex res' when in the sim.

    While I haven't seen any sort of system impact when using my 4K px liveries it doesn't mean others won't. On top of that, I have no idea how a shit-load of people on a MP server would fare if every aircraft is using a 4K lossless texture. Hoping you guys that have been with this series since its inception can answer some of these questions and concerns before I proceed. I mean I don't wanna continue to waste my time if this simply isn't possible or hampers performance.

    As for the 4K livery itself. A few WIPs.




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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Those look amazing!
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Going to recommend you wait till we go to DX11... the potential for 4K on DX11 is much better.

    That will happen when we put out the re-coded new version of CoD a number of months into the New Year.

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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Going to recommend you wait till we go to DX11... the potential for 4K on DX11 is much better.

    That will happen when we put out the re-coded new version of CoD a number of months into the New Year.
    I've started noticing that the texture mapping seems a little off (stretched) the larger the resolution gets, so I likely leave it alone for now anyway. Thanks for the heads up though.

    Tossed the livery up for DL if anyone wants it.
    Last edited by DetCord; Dec-29-2016 at 15:00.

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Nice! And for ultra mode, they should use 3 sets of 4K for one plane.

    Time to upgrade the minecraft-like voxel densities of tailgunner positions!

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    DetCord,your 4K converted texures looks absolutely fantastic!!!

    Do you plan to convert also other bf-109 liveries some time soon?I would definitely love to see a 4K converted texture liverie of the famous desert skin for the 109 E-4 shown here: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=10739

    With the upcoming and much anticipated North Afrika Theater,something like this will be really awesome!

    Nick
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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by fly4ever View Post
    DetCord,your 4K converted texures looks absolutely fantastic!!!

    Do you plan to convert also other bf-109 liveries some time soon?I would definitely love to see a 4K converted texture liverie of the famous desert skin for the 109 E-4 shown here: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=10739

    With the upcoming and much anticipated North Afrika Theater,something like this will be really awesome!

    Nick
    Nah mate, that's not how it works. You can't convert anything. I rebuilt the existing textures for the 109 from the ground up, like rivet for rivet, line for line, part for part etc etc. That means the original artist would have to completely redo the livery to the new 4K tex base. On top of that, as Buzzsaw pointed out, there isn't much of a need for it until CLoD moves to a DX11 render.

    As for a NA/desert livery, I'm slowly working my way towards several. Like this one.


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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by DetCord View Post
    Nah mate, that's not how it works. You can't convert anything. I rebuilt the existing textures for the 109 from the ground up, like rivet for rivet, line for line, part for part etc etc. That means the original artist would have to completely redo the livery to the new 4K tex base. On top of that, as Buzzsaw pointed out, there isn't much of a need for it until CLoD moves to a DX11 render.

    As for a NA/desert livery, I'm slowly working my way towards several. Like this one.

    Looking awesome!
    "The needs of the Flight Sim Community outweigh the needs of the one or the few"

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    Supporting Member farley's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    DetCord, these look great!

    The second view is now the background on my computer.
    It is so good that even my 16 year old son noticed and admired it!
    Thanks very much for sharing these, and please keep them coming.
    Last edited by farley; Dec-31-2016 at 08:39.
    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by farley View Post
    DetCord, these look great!

    The second view is now the background on my computer.
    It is so good that even my 16 year old son noticed and admired it!
    Thanks very much for sharing these, and please keep them coming.
    Cheers mate. Here is the JG77 109.


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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Hi DetCord,
    You have the same idea as me, at about the same time, you are ahead of me I see.

    I am starting out right now on getting my head around what its going to take to create skins featuring ACCURATE Luft colours and what is available regards rivet and panel line templates.
    I intend to correct any errors on the Me109E, I have access to all the correct panel locations shapes etc for the real aircraft, not restored but original, as restored #1 and #2 are incorrect in places.
    I have just flown an all white artwork to see just what the sim applies to skins as one will have to follow any panel lines the sim wont let us alter. It has I understand hardcoded imagery that applies impressed panel fastener effects etc, so even if wrong, and some are too big or wrong placed, we cant fix that.

    I see rivet and panel line being applied by the sim over my all white jpg so how is this overcome as its quality is woolly ! Rivets and panel lines are sometimes incorrectly placed.

    We need to have full control over such 'hardcoded' imagery, or do you know of a way of even altering the images being placed over my all white jpg I placed into the Me109E3 folder in the Softclub address on C drive ? ( I place into both default and MOD addresses, having noted that Cptfarrels Me109E3 skins ended up in both locations !)

    Skins I have downloaded from such folk as CptFarrel are 2048 x 2048 pixels in size, doc properties say untagged RGB 8bpc, default skins from the CoD folder are also 2048 x 2048. That artwork dictates surely what detail can be crammed into the skin. I open your skin and its also 2048 x 2048 so how become its looking crisper than another 2048x2048 image ?

    I see you have saved it as a bmp, so no compression artefacts. I see CptFarrel is jpg but if he saved it as max quality jpg, would it not look the same ? it should be just as crisp an artwork if not compressed ? If folk create jpg and drag that quality slider to 1 not 12 then it will look crummy !

    So what makes a file created from scratch at 2048 x 2048 a 4K file, I am using Photoshop CS6 and you are with Photoshop CC. How are you saving the file to make it 4K lossless ?

    As I am creating from scratch, as you are, the artwork for the Me109E, we may as well pool resources here ! I can feed to you the accurate RGB colours for all the Luftwaffe colours, having spent a few months capturing these photographically correctly then sampling them correctly (beware pipette samples screen not image, so if zoomed out when sampling you can capture adjacent area to the Luft colour square !!!)

    I intend to establish the RGB values skins should have to portray the Luft colours same as in the paint swatches I have captured digitally. Having just flown RLM65 with its correct RGB value and studied the still , the sim darkens and alters saturation, and altering skin by the amount it does that, does not however see it now match the target colour, so its a tail chase ! I shall have to fly a number of variants until I find the one that matches, or fly a gradation panel, increasing lightness left to right, decreasing saturation top to bottom. Fly it in same light conditions 10/10 cloud as the paint swatches were photographed. Sunlight by the way creates a different set of colours lighter and more saturated, so I will then test in 0/10 cloud and see if it matches the sunlight set I have.

    Is it possible to place and modify panel lines ? I see CptFarrels skins for example with panel lines, but has he placed his to match those the sim is apparently also placing ?

    Are you creating the panel line layer , the rivet layer etc, at 2048x2048 or on artwork 2x as big then reducing by 50% Drawing what are jagged lines at actual size makes for a tough life visually !

    I am only interested though in making accurate Battle of Britain skins featuring correct colours, I waited a lifetime for such a sim and have no desire to use it for non BoB scenes when its desperately in need of many BoB errors being fixed still.

    I am keen to also tackle early on the Do17Z but cannot see any jpg files or anything I can open in the sims default skins folders.

    Anyone know how to get at these ?

    I have PM'd you as I can feed you the Luft colours etc and we can talk technical there !

    BOBC

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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by BOBC View Post
    Hi DetCord,
    You have the same idea as me, at about the same time, you are ahead of me I see.

    I am starting out right now on getting my head around what its going to take to create skins featuring ACCURATE Luft colours and what is available regards rivet and panel line templates.
    I intend to correct any errors on the Me109E, I have access to all the correct panel locations shapes etc for the real aircraft, not restored but original, as restored #1 and #2 are incorrect in places.
    I have just flown an all white artwork to see just what the sim applies to skins as one will have to follow any panel lines the sim wont let us alter. It has I understand hardcoded imagery that applies impressed panel fastener effects etc, so even if wrong, and some are too big or wrong placed, we cant fix that.

    I see rivet and panel line being applied by the sim over my all white jpg so how is this overcome as its quality is woolly ! Rivets and panel lines are sometimes incorrectly placed.

    We need to have full control over such 'hardcoded' imagery, or do you know of a way of even altering the images being placed over my all white jpg I placed into the Me109E3 folder in the Softclub address on C drive ? ( I place into both default and MOD addresses, having noted that Cptfarrels Me109E3 skins ended up in both locations !)
    One of the issues is that the individual MDL's have their own panels, rivets, etc and are not using bump maps which is a huge draw. The overlay layers in the PK's provided by KeefyBoy simply add more definition, and you could always turn those off or alter the opacity/fill sliders to adjust those. It's one of those things that would require a lot of tweaking and checking and rechecking your work.

    Skins I have downloaded from such folk as CptFarrel are 2048 x 2048 pixels in size, doc properties say untagged RGB 8bpc, default skins from the CoD folder are also 2048 x 2048. That artwork dictates surely what detail can be crammed into the skin. I open your skin and its also 2048 x 2048 so how become its looking crisper than another 2048x2048 image?
    The liveries that I've done and released here are not 4K, they're in their default 2K tex res. As was explained above by myself and Buzzsaw, there isn't much of a point in moving over to 4K until a DX11 API is added to update the engine. On top of that, there are texture mapping issues related to 4K imagery when the engine applies it to the model.

    I see you have saved it as a bmp, so no compression artefacts. I see CptFarrel is jpg but if he saved it as max quality jpg, would it not look the same ? it should be just as crisp an artwork if not compressed ? If folk create jpg and drag that quality slider to 1 not 12 then it will look crummy !
    No. JPG is a lossy format no matted what compression parameter is used. BMP is lossless. Though to be honest, a better option would be PNG as opposed to BMP, which is what I'm experimenting with. One thing I'll never understand is why the developers continued to utilized this type of imagery to begin with as opposed to DXT, which would make a hell of a lot more sense. Just proof positive how well entrenched they were with regards to antiquated systems. It wasn't until BoS that they finally caught up with the rest of the game development world and moved over to DXT format.

    So what makes a file created from scratch at 2048 x 2048 a 4K file, I am using Photoshop CS6 and you are with Photoshop CC. How are you saving the file to make it 4K lossless ?
    It's been explained multiple times in previous posts.

    As I am creating from scratch, as you are, the artwork for the Me109E, we may as well pool resources here ! I can feed to you the accurate RGB colours for all the Luftwaffe colours, having spent a few months capturing these photographically correctly then sampling them correctly (beware pipette samples screen not image, so if zoomed out when sampling you can capture adjacent area to the Luft colour square !!!)

    I intend to establish the RGB values skins should have to portray the Luft colours same as in the paint swatches I have captured digitally. Having just flown RLM65 with its correct RGB value and studied the still , the sim darkens and alters saturation, and altering skin by the amount it does that, does not however see it now match the target colour, so its a tail chase ! I shall have to fly a number of variants until I find the one that matches, or fly a gradation panel, increasing lightness left to right, decreasing saturation top to bottom. Fly it in same light conditions 10/10 cloud as the paint swatches were photographed. Sunlight by the way creates a different set of colours lighter and more saturated, so I will then test in 0/10 cloud and see if it matches the sunlight set I have.
    I'm more than willing to help when and where I can mate, but I'm active duty military and my time is pretty limited.

    Is it possible to place and modify panel lines ? I see CptFarrels skins for example with panel lines, but has he placed his to match those the sim is apparently also placing ?
    Yeah, this is something I've considered doing myself and that's redrawing some of the panel lines to remove the jaggies. I've done it before on several addons for FSX/P3D, but its a very time consuming project. KeefyBoy did an amazing job creating these templates when absolutely nothing was provided by the developers themselves, which is a shame. So hats off to him for taking the extreme amount of time to undertake that project.

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    And.....why not 8K?!? ah, memories! Anyway, are amazing skins! Your works are about only for the texture or the bump too?

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by DetCord View Post
    Hoping someone can help answer some questions for me. First and foremost, I'm not new to this. I use CC professionally via contracts in the aviation world (branding/livery design) and I've done some work for various FS related addons over the years. So I'm not looking for help in the content creation arena. My questions concern the max tex res the sim will use, if it has one, and what possible system impacts for various users could be seen as its just a 32bit app. The more system intensive renders become the more likely you are to see a CTD with 32bit RTE's, like FSX and P3D.

    I ask because I've taken the default 2K textures for the 109 and have completely rebuilt them from the ground up to support 4K lossless pixel imagery. I had to go in and basically hand-jam everything anew. Everything. What does 4K imagery brings to the table? Vastly improved textures for one. They're sharper, clearer, more defined and far more visually impressive. To put it into perspective, here is an example of the default CloD tex res with that of what I've done. And yes, these are the actual tex res' when in the sim.

    While I haven't seen any sort of system impact when using my 4K px liveries it doesn't mean others won't. On top of that, I have no idea how a shit-load of people on a MP server would fare if every aircraft is using a 4K lossless texture. Hoping you guys that have been with this series since its inception can answer some of these questions and concerns before I proceed. I mean I don't wanna continue to waste my time if this simply isn't possible or hampers performance.

    As for the 4K livery itself. A few WIPs.



    Hi DetCord
    WOW.. These look amazing, You obviously have the credentials and knowledge to take the 2K to 4K Skin texture
    when DX11 comes along this will help greatly to enhance these fantastic liveries.
    Thanks again for your time and commitment.
    Cheers again Mate
    Regards
    Keith
    Last edited by KeefyBoy; Jan-03-2017 at 15:23.

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    Student Pilot DetCord's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by KeefyBoy View Post
    Hi DetCord
    WOW.. These look amazing, You obviously have the credentials and knowledge to take the 2K to 4K Skin texture
    when DX11 comes along this will help greatly to enhance these fantastic liveries.
    Thanks again for your time and commitment.
    Cheers again Mate
    Regards
    Keith
    No matey, thank you. Without your hard work and dedication none of this would be possible.

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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Cpt Farrell
    Keith
    Major Setback

    and now

    Detcord

    Beautiful work mate!
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

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  21. #17
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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by DetCord View Post
    No matey, thank you. Without your hard work and dedication none of this would be possible.
    Thanks Buddy, its nice to be appreciated.
    I love making skins and the challenge of finding solutions to problems like having no templates and
    working out a way to create them.
    This is just my way of sharing with others who have had the same difficulties and giving back to the Clod community.
    Thanks Again
    Keith

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Quote Originally Posted by DetCord View Post
    I've started noticing that the texture mapping seems a little off (stretched) the larger the resolution gets, so I likely leave it alone for now anyway. Thanks for the heads up though.

    Tossed the livery up for DL if anyone wants it.
    Great skin

    Many thanks !

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    Re: Moving to 4K Textures

    Looks bloody marvallous! I work in 8K as a standard however...

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