Thrustmaster Warthog or other alternatives for Win 10

[Pans]

Hi all,

In this week's installment of 'Which piece of Panser's hardware will go wrong next', it looks like I'm in the market for a new joystick. I currently have a FLY 5 and the pots on the throttle axes have suddenly started spiking badly and generally being erratic.
I've long fancied the look of the TM Warthogs, but I have some reservations other than the cost...

Firstly I've seen mention that there could be issues using it with Windows 10. Does anyone here use this combination and have any of you experienced these problems?

Secondly, does anyone know what mechanism the throttle unit uses? I'm hoping that it uses hall effect sensors as I'd like to avoid something using potentiometers if this is at all possible.

Failing that, can anyone recommend an alternative product of comparable quality?

Cheers!

[ATAG_Highseas]

I have peronally grown to hate mine.

The throttle I still loove.

The stick though is the worst design ever conceived.

The handle itself is great but the mechanisn is just pure engineering stupidity.

I'm waiting on the VKB gunfighter, to which I will mount the Warthog handle.

VKB gladiator uses the same gimbla as the Gufigther will... ive not used either... yet...

there are also cheaper alternatives obviously.


Basically.... I have had ups and downs with the Warthog.... I'm still using it... but I couldn't really recomend it. They need to redesign the whole base mechanism... and I'm stunned they havent (even as a paid upgrade). It could be great. But it really isn't.

[ATAG_Highseas]

also:



Since i didnt actually answer you !!!!

Warthog works in W10 same previous versiopns of Windows. There was on 10 some early "swapping teh controlls oever on each reboot" issues, but by the time W10 died on me this had stopped happening. I went back to 7 after 10 imploded.

Throttle uses hall sensors. (I think !!... pretty sure it does at any rate)

[Pans]

Thanks for the feedback, Highseas. So what specifically is it about the construction of the stick base that you've come to loathe?

[ATAG_Highseas]

Thanks for the feedback, Highseas. So what specifically is it about the construction of the stick base that you've come to loathe?

The terrible design of the ball gimble and plunger assembly.

It's stickey as hell. needs regular re-greasing.

Once re-greased its fine again... for a month or two and I briefly forget how much it annoys me.

But when all is said and done it's about as flawed a design as you could come up with to acheive a smoooth x y motion.

Hall sensors yey !! but pointless when the mechanism is so incredibly poorly executed.

No idea what they were thinking with that.


When greased its effective. Love the stick itself and the buttons / layout. But the base unit is a poor design dressed up in fancy clothing.

Really sad. But...


I have no doubt there will be many who disagree with me. Which is totally fine with me!... I'm just one opinion so please do gather as many as you can rather than just take my word for it.

but for me. Though I still use it, I could not recomend a purchase. Not a full retail at any rate.

[Pans]

Ahh, that explains why you were dismantling your stick that evening I found you on TeamSpeak!

To be honest negative opinions about the Warthog seem rather hard to come by, so if anything I value hearing any like yours that have a valid justification. If I'm considering such a financial commitment on a peripheral, I appreciate being able to make an informed decision. Cheers!

[1lokos]

I've long fancied the look of the TM Warthogs, but I have some reservations other than the cost...

Fancy look with mediocre mechanics.

Plastic gimbal with "lock", stiction and that can broken if user don't handle with care, some believed that is "build like a tank" due their (cheap ZAMAC) metal used for grip and throttle grips and end broken the gimbal sphere, HALL support, neck.

Throttle case and stick case is in plastic with aluminum covers.

Secondly, does anyone know what mechanism the throttle unit uses? I'm hoping that it uses hall effect sensors as I'd like to avoid something using potentiometers if this is at all possible.

Throttles axes use HALL sensor like the stick X/Y axis - no parts for wear, the axis in the lever on base right side seems a use a pot (3 wires).

The "TDC" under left index finger is based on HALL sensor, but seems be a cellphone/tablet hardware adapted, and result imprecise to use - is hated by users.

Failing that, can anyone recommend an alternative product of comparable quality?

That's the problem, no options.

CH gear will cost a bit less for similar functions - and last longer, since is made with plastic used for industrial controls (cranes stick and etc), but still using the same 1999 electronics - 8 bits, for today standard obsolete, to not say about their design... "vintage" and their gimbal very "clunk"

Saitek's QC goes south under MadCatz, is buy headache.

VKB and VirPil came with better mechanics, gimbal made in proper metal: steel, bronze, high grade aluminum, ball bearings, and more important CAM center system = no stiction, no "clunk".
They are the "Next Gen" - like Baur, MFG, Slaw and VKB rudder pedals.

But VKB still more promise than products: low production, low availability, sell (when available) only in 3 places in the whole Earth, no proper manuals (available in Russian)... VirPil need wait for see... and their throttles remain only in drawings.

[ATAG_Highseas]

And nobody is allowed to buy one before I get mine. Just saying.

[Baffin]

I've had mine since September, 2013. I've modified it with a home made 90 mm stick extension using a home made PS2 cable, and have never had a problem. The "Stiction" problem of the joystick seems to be hit-or-miss... some have it and some do not. I have never needed to grease it, but the extension does improve precision and leverage.

The software is excellent, although it takes some practice and study. For example, RAF Aileron trim is possible.

Mine has never experienced a mechanical or electrical problem.

The suggested retail price is too high. Shop carefully.

[ATAG_Highseas]

After flying again last night I decided enough was enough. I need a stop gap before the VKB gunfighter is released. A cheap one.

Probably keep the stick. The base ? Paperweight. I simply cannot be bothered to strip it and rebuild again.

Maybe as Baffin says I got unlucky with mine. But from an engineering perspective it's so far off being a sensible design as to be almost funny. It's novel I will give them that.... But sensible it is not.

[Ohms]

Like the guys have said the sticktion problem with the joystick is hit and miss, I have not had this problem(3 yrs of use) but I do have a small problem with the throttle. The right hand throttle is loose as in it has no position tension and cannot be tightened by the wheel for this. The thing is just worn out from use I guess. Took the thing apart and removed what is left of the rubber(pile of rubber shwarf) tension system. Not a major issue but a pain none the less.

[Pans]

Well thank you all for your contributions. It sounds like a real quandry... So weighing up everything I'm left with two impressions:

1. The Warthog is a generally good but not perfect product and some design flaws or cut corners means YMMV regards longevity.
2. It is popular because there isn't really anything else better or even directly comparable as a mainstream alternative.

Presuming that I've not missed the mark, I'm not really sure how those impressions can be reconciled! Life would certainly be a lot easier if there was a clear alternative. Unfortunately I'd rather take the opportunity to upgrade and avoid buying another mediocre entry-level stick like the FLY 5 that will just die sooner rather than later. The prospect of periodic maintenance somehow seems like a reasonable trade-off

[Ohms]

Well thank you all for your contributions. It sounds like a real quandry... So weighing up everything I'm left with two impressions:

1. The Warthog is a generally good but not perfect product and some design flaws or cut corners means YMMV regards longevity.
2. It is popular because there isn't really anything else better or even directly comparable as a mainstream alternative.

Presuming that I've not missed the mark, I'm not really sure how those impressions can be reconciled! Life would certainly be a lot easier if there was a clear alternative. Unfortunately I'd rather take the opportunity to upgrade and avoid buying another mediocre entry-level stick like the FLY 5 that will just die sooner rather than later. The prospect of periodic maintenance somehow seems like a reasonable trade-off

You are bang on with your assessment. Overall I am very happy with my purchase and would do it again as I don't see a better product atm which is widely available. The X55 has not caught on as far as I see and the other hotas from a few years back whose name I forget at the moment was a complete disaster.

[1lokos]

1. The Warthog is a generally good but not perfect product and some design flaws or cut corners means YMMV regards longevity.
2. It is popular because there isn't really anything else better or even directly comparable as a mainstream alternative.

Yes, and fix for most flaws is well know, for most people Tm support work furnishing spare parts (some don't have luck for some reason), community provide solutions like extensions for minimize gimbal heaviness, stiction and improve control precision, or YT re-grease tutorials - not recommend for people without skill in DIY, some already damage electronics done this re-grease.

In Deblesis Shapeways is possible 3D print Nylon or Steel (expensive) replacement necks, better than Tm original, as replacement for broken cases.

And can be said that Baur, VKB and VirPil furnish better gimbals for TmW - although not TARGET compatible.

Take in mind that TmW has a hidden cost - need a rudder pedal, what add from ~90$ of Tm TFRP to 550$+ of Slaw Viper.

[SIA_Sp00k]

Ahh, that explains why you were dismantling your stick that evening I found you on TeamSpeak!

To be honest negative opinions about the Warthog seem rather hard to come by, so if anything I value hearing any like yours that have a valid justification. If I'm considering such a financial commitment on a peripheral, I appreciate being able to make an informed decision. Cheers!

You wont find a negative opinion on the warthog from me i'm afraid. Perfect trouble free run with W10. I have the Warthog HOTAS with MFG Crosswind rudders. Made for each other it seems.
If I was to delve into the dark art of negative opinion, I would stretch to say, I do not like the TARGET software as much as I would have thought I would. I would lean towards the fact however, that it is my inadequacy with the program rather than it being at fault itself. I have had mine for ages and it has taken its fair share of abuse without complaint. When....if, this thing ever dies, I will be looking for another just like it.

[Pans]

You wont find a negative opinion on the warthog from me i'm afraid. Perfect trouble free run with W10.

That's never a bad thing; it's reassuring to hear that there are happy customers like you and Ohms!

Take in mind that TmW has a hidden cost - need a rudder pedal, what add from ~90$ of Tm TFRP to 550$+ of Slaw Viper.

Not a problem, I use Saitek Pro rudder pedals already. It's good to know that spares are available for TMW, if needs be.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Ok....

Having written this off i just stripped and regreased it...

put the massive spring back in as well, but tied the three central spirals together.... put that back in (without the four lower springs.)



Its smoother than it ever has been. (And not as heavy as a cow that swallowed an anvil)

I still think the design is fundamentally flawed. but... we do seem to be back in action (and not all juddery as hell)

I can live with it like this until the Gunfighter comes along. Then I'm jumping ship.

[Pans]

I've had a real conundrum with this three-way battle of head, heart and wallet in the last few days so I've been looking into all of the other products that have been mentioned here.

- The VKB range sounds incredible and I'd seriously consider throwing money in their direction if the Gladiator or Gunfighter were actually available to buy.

- I've also investigated the CH product range. They're really not much to look at and the tech is rather dated but the enduring high praise and apparent longevity of their products speaks volumes. I have reservations regards the comments I've seen where people mention that you can feel the joystick moving the X and Y axes independently. It would either be fine or an absolute dealbreaker and I'd need to try before I bought.

- The Warthog. It just keeps coming back to this and it's the only one about which my inner chimp gets remotely excited. As a product it seems to be in the awkward position of being the best in a field of one, and sadly it seems to be a coin toss whether or not they are problematic. I've watched a couple of youtube videos about rectifying the stiction and it certainly looks within my comfort zone but I can't help being dragged back to the fact that this simply should not need doing. I cannot imagine any other peripheral or electrical appliance that I would buy with the expectation of fixing manufacturing faults within weeks or months. But look at it. The sheer mass, the styling, so many buttons and switches. It's beautiful in a gadgety way, absolutely an object of technological pornography.

So what have I decided to do? In the meanwhile I'll keep my FLY5 as the stick itself still works. Because the pots on the throttle axes are scuppered I have a Thustmaster TWCS on the way. It's half the price and a lot more functional than the CH Pro Throttle I had also been strongly considering. I'll get to experience HOTAS which will probably give me even more of a taste for the Warthog, which I've not ruled it out at all.

Thank you all for your thoughts, opinions, experiences and suggestions. You've all been a great help.

[ATAG_Highseas]

USA VKB guys recommend March. European guys say April.

Warthog base available second hand around that time.

I prefer an x y feel. One of the drawbacks the warthog has is to do with the plunger assembly. It gives a sort of rotational effect. Hard to describe. Not a deal breaker by any means. But it's a bit odd.

That said in flight I don't have time to notice or dwell on it!

[1lokos]

I have reservations regards the comments I've seen where people mention that you can feel the joystick moving the X and Y axes independently. It would either be fine or an absolute dealbreaker and I'd need to try before I bought.

This, X, Y axis independent or mixed axes is a curious thing.

Gimbal of early PC joysticks in 90' follow in the majority (Genius use a exotic system) the R/C transmitter gimbal system:



Independent crosshead for each axis, with independent springs for each axis - what maybe explain why CH still using this model*, their are 90's products.

Thrustmaster make life difficult for F22PRO users trying answer the "realism crowd" wishes: for then the force need to move desktop joystick in X,Y axis should reminder "real things", so add heavy springs in gimbal.
Play a hour with F22PRO can result in pain in arms muscles (I have one).

Since are two springs - in X, Y axis - in diagonal movements they are combined and the force needed increase.

Then Microsoft enter in the "fray" with his 3D PRO (bad memory using this) and one conical spring, similar used in Suncom sticks, giving a more "soft" feel.

Then the crowd begin ask for the same for Thrustmaster, but in Cougar they just copy the F-22PRO gimbal, just changing the potentiometer fit for use more cheap pot model - and made the gimbal in cheap and worse metal (ZAMAC).


Since they products has a ~10 years life cycle only in 2010 Warthog came with one spring system, already used by Saitek over the decade: the "piston" spring gimbal.

And since in this system has only one spring, the force in diagonal is the same of X or Y movements, but since are only one spring you can compress then only one time, so:

If you move the stick 50% in Y axis and then need move 50% in X axis NO additional force is need, the unique springs is always compressed.

Add to this that a compressed spring tends to "lock" in central position, is need more force for move sick from neutral that after neutral, impairing precise control in this zone: the zone used for fine aim in WWII CFS.

Bottom line: both system has their flaws.

Then in second half of first decade of XXI century the Russians entry in the "fray".

In ~2004 I have the luck to discovered the (now RiP) Sukhoi - joystick & DIY - forum, there people (some working in aviation industry) discuss all gimbals system and springs positions possible to be used in joystick, with the pros and cons of then, kinematics analyses.

To give a better picture: VKB first gimbal (2005, 2006 maybe...) was based on UberNXT add-on gimbal for Tm Cougar, gimbal considered at time ( middle of 2000's) the "Nirvana" in gimbals.

To resume, all this Sukhoi activity result in: use CAM center system for joystick gimbal - even without know that Boeing use this in their feel mechanism for fly-by-wire planes.

The proof of correctness of this: Now Baur, MFG, Slaw, VKB rudder pedals all use CAM for centering, and they can be considered a "Next Gen" over previous rudder pedals made by CH, Logitech, Saitek, Thrutstmaster.

Now VKB and Baur offer CAM system for joystick gimbal with VKB "Next Gen" and Baur BRD-D gimbals, and soon VirPil will offer.

VKB already improved their "Next Gen" for Gunfighter adding the "Dry Clutch" to add damper effect for stick movement.

- In Tm Warthog the "blessed" grease around the gimbal sphere is not there for make things slide better, is for dampening the (heavy ~1Kg) grip pendulum effect, what make stiction is imperfections in plastics injection of the parts, why some YT videos use sand the sphere before re-grease, and the recommend grease for this is the high damper effect Nyogel 767A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59F9qUDNwnQ

* VKB "entry level" model, Gladiator "vanilla" use a gimbal based on (discontinued) Defender Cobra M5 (VKB project) gimbal - gimbal based in CH gimbals.
For Gladiator "vanila" VKB improve M5 gimbal mechanism adding grease in pivot for dampening the grip movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7L_AmneTuU

BTW - For understand why CH electronics 8 bits resolution - 256 "steeps" across axis movement - can be considered obsolete face today standards of 10/12 bits resolution (1.024/4096 "steeps") ready this essay:

On resolution.

Suggest too that Thrustmaster "16000" in their "HEART" is ... marketing.

Curiosity: High End R/C gimbal now are using a kind of ... CAM.

http://www.weatronic.com/en/index.ph...nic-sticks.php

[PhoenixCNE]

I am eagerly awaiting the email saying I can order my gunfighter .... until then the warthog will definitely suffice. I have purchased 2 warthog sticks as of now (bought standalone stick first and then got a good deal on package stick/throttle that I couldn't pass up) and both had this "sticktion" problem and as said before its caused by the clearance of the plastic parts. I used the first stick for months before this finally started to bug me a little bit and I took the thing apart, sanded some pins down, regreased, and it was a world of difference in smoothness (the you tube videos are easy to follow). I guess my biggest let down was spending that much money and then having to modify it to make it work well, but after modification was worlds better. I think you have a very good assessment of what ranks where and why just wanted to add my experience, warthog was best option I had at the time and I will definitely be putting my warthog stick onto my gunfighter but the internals in the end didn't leave me with something I felt would last for years. (I realize some of you out there have had your warthog for years I'm just stating what I feel)

[Prophet]

Ok....

Having written this off i just stripped and regreased it...

put the massive spring back in as well, but tied the three central spirals together.... put that back in (without the four lower springs.)



Its smoother than it ever has been. (And not as heavy as a cow that swallowed an anvil)

I still think the design is fundamentally flawed. but... we do seem to be back in action (and not all juddery as hell)

I can live with it like this until the Gunfighter comes along. Then I'm jumping ship.

I did exactly the same with my FLY5:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=24223

The difference is night and day. For a budget stick i really can't complain. The only thing i've had to do (other than cable-tie the spring) is to extend the wiring loom inside. It was too short which lead to a couple cables snapping when the joystick is pushed to the outer edges. Works like a charm now