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Thread: Map rotation randomness?

  1. #1
    Supporting Member III./ZG76_Ezzie's Avatar
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    Map rotation randomness?

    Noticed yesterday that K-kamp came on several times (separated by one other mission) and then when i woke up this morning it was on again. This isnt a moan about the mission - i dont mind it - but just wondering if the randomness script is maybe in need for a reboot?

    I cant remember all my uni stats lectures - in fact i think i dkipped those classes mostly - but realise its possible to have a cluster of events that dont look random but are still random. So maybe this is what is happening. But thought i would mention it just in case.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Yep...randomness is not real randomness...I can't be...as true randomness would occasionally see the same map picked 3 or 4 times in succession...so there has to be a clause in the random cycle that it doesn't play the same map twice in a row...Just a heads up incase you thought that making a script for random map rotation was a walk in the park...

    Anyways...The clever folk who work their magic on this stuff will I am sure give it a kick and acknowledge your concerns...

    Good call Ez...~S~
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    Supporting Member Baffin's Avatar
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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Random number generators are as good as we can approximate. Sometimes I get so sick of the maps I don't like, I lay off playing them for awhile... Isn't that the way life is? You cannot expect a good hand with every deal of the cards.
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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    it really must be truly random seeing how the apparent results are anything but


    this is a paradoxical phenomena I've noticed as a game programmer while working with "random" elements on various projects - random really isn't, and appears very much biased


    what a map rotation system should have, in order for the results to feel effectively "random" to users, is not really a chance-pick logic, but a shuffle algorithm instead

    that means instead of picking the next from any of the available maps, it'd just pick the next in line from a pre-shuffled list, then once the list is done, it is shuffled again

    that is known as a uniquely-random generator, and is what music players use when you select to play in "shuffle mode" - this method ensures any entry is present only once for every number of elements on the list, and goes a long way into providing a proper sense of randomness

    a fully random system, such as we have in ATAG, has instead no problem whatsoever with picking the same map twice in a row, or in very quick succession - and that leads to the feeling that it's biased towards some group or individual map in the lineup - but that's really just that: an impression

    mathematically, the odds of this sense of grouping appearing in a truly random sorting are larger than not, unless you have a VERY long list - which is why I have more than once found myself programming "derandomizers" for use in a game I was working on - those were systems designed to make random seem a bit more "fair", as far as gameplay is concerned, and often did so by actually introducing a "bias"


    so, if possible to actually implement this, here's how to accomplish map sorting that feels properly random:


    1 - start with a list of all maps in no particular order
    2 - randomly shuffle the ordering of the list
    3 - set selection marker to the start of the list (zero)
    4 - select map on marked position
    5 - increase selection marker by 1
    6 - if marker is past the end of the list, go back to step 2; else, go back to step 4


    this is a little more complex than the current algorithm, which is a single step: "pick any at random from the list"

    as you can see, the simpler method is very prone to repetition, and just as likely to ignoring one or more maps for a time - but this is really to be expected, as per the nature of truly random things
    Last edited by Moach; May-15-2017 at 11:35.
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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moach View Post
    it really must be truly random seeing how the apparent results are anything but


    this is a paradoxical phenomena I've noticed as a game programmer while working with "random" elements on various projects - random really isn't, and appears very much biased


    what a map rotation system should have, in order for the results to feel effectively "random" to users, is not really a chance-pick logic, but a shuffle algorithm instead

    that means instead of picking the next from any of the available maps, it'd just pick the next in line from a pre-shuffled list, then once the list is done, it is shuffled again

    that is known as a uniquely-random generator, and is what music players use when you select to play in "shuffle mode" - this method ensures any entry is present only once for every number of elements on the list, and goes a long way into providing a proper sense of randomness

    a fully random system, such as we have in ATAG, has instead no problem whatsoever with picking the same map twice in a row, or in very quick succession - and that leads to the feeling that it's biased towards some group or individual map in the lineup - but that's really just that: an impression

    mathematically, the odds of this sense of grouping appearing in a truly random sorting are larger than not, unless you have a VERY long list - which is why I have more than once found myself programming "derandomizers" for use in a game I was working on - those were systems designed to make random seem a bit more "fair", as far as gameplay is concerned, and often did so by actually introducing a "bias"


    so, if possible to actually implement this, here's how to accomplish map sorting that feels properly random:


    1 - start with a list of all maps in no particular order
    2 - randomly shuffle the ordering of the list
    3 - set selection marker to the start of the list (zero)
    4 - select map on marked position
    5 - increase selection marker by 1
    6 - if marker is past the end of the list, go back to step 2; else, go back to step 4


    this is a little more complex than the current algorithm, which is a single step: "pick any at random from the list"

    as you can see, the simpler method is very prone to repetition, and just as likely to ignoring one or more maps for a time - but this is really to be expected, as per the nature of truly random things
    I had to read this post through a few times before I fully got it, but it sounds like an excellent solution to me.

    Have you contacted PanTast to see if it can be implemented on the ATAG server ?

    Be gentle with him, he's heard a lot of moaning about the mission selection, but you've actually suggested a solution that's worth considering in my humble opinion.

    Nice suggestion

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  7. #6
    ATAG Server Operator ATAG_PanTast's Avatar
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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    No chance guys.
    And if you want something other than what we have you need to ask Colander. So this means still no chance.

    o7

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    I really feel for the poor ATATG Server

    I've been told I'm pretty random.

    And people tire of me really quickly too. It's terribly painfiul.

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    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    random numbers think i picked 6, pretty interesting stuff on these videos.

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