Air combat training proposal

[Pans]

There seems to be a lot of new faces joining the forums lately (including me), and many are either brand new pilots or fairly inexperienced. I'm sure that there is always a regular turnover, but I imagine that the number of new members will only increase as the agreement with TFS, eventual Steam updates and, somewhere down the line, the release of the TF5.0 all helps to generate interest in Cliffs of Dover.

The steep learning curve of CloD is universally acknowledged and I see that there has in the past been an organised "ATAG flight School" that has presumably slipped by the wayside. As it stands the current advice to new pilots wanting assistance is "ask on Teamspeak, everyone is friendly and willing to help". This is without a shadow of doubt true, but as a method not without some problems. Clearly some very good friendships have been formed on the ATAG servers and when everyone is having a good time and chatting freely it can be very difficult (sometimes literally getting a word in, but also in terms of social awkwardness) to be the new person butting in for help.

For a few days I've been thinking about an idea based on my own experiences of learning to fly on the ATAG server. Obviously everyone is different and no two people will have the same levels of skill, transferable experience and confidence. Some people will be willing to throw themselves in at the deep end, both into the banter on Teamspeak and the nearest furball. Others (and I include myself here) might be more reserved about joining in the chat and their ability to fly and fight. Aside from some initial instruction on the controls and advice for getting airborne from Lolsav and Highseas, I found that engine management in normal flight was reasonably straightforward to learn given some time and practice. The problem comes as a new pilot when you try applying this to dogfighting and find yourself flopping around the sky like a landed fish and stalling rather than executing the perfect yo-yo or scissors that you can visualise in you minds' eye.

So what am I proposing? This would need the involvement of some experienced players to help get things going, but my idea is effectively a training team to guide newbies through air combat manoeuvring. Rather than a timetabled event or formal instruction, it would just take the format of a panel of players willing to offer their assistance. Someone wanting to practice their ACM could then approach one or more members of this panel, either on the forums or whenever they see them in-game, knowing that they would be willing to help. My idea is for these volunteers to help new pilots build their skills without the fear and inconvenience of being shot down until they feel confident enough to go out and wade into fights on the main server. Ideally some of these new players would themselves go on to become the next generation of trainers. As we experience waves of new players it could be a good way to group people with comparable skill levels that go on to regularly fly together. The ATAG bomber server would be a good place to do this, probably the sightseeing airfield in London as it seems to have the most aircraft types, or any other remote airfield that won't interrupt normal play on the server. If it isn't already available, perhaps a 109E-4 could also be added to the available plane types from this particular airfield?

At this stage I'd definitely be a beneficiary rather than a particularly useful trainer but nonetheless I'm happy to put my name forward should any other new pilots want some non-threatening combat practice… just shout me on Teamspeak if you see me playing.

So... I guess now I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think. Could this work? Has it already been tried and failed? Anyone interested in helping make it a reality?

[Blackc5]

JG51 is available for training in the 109, hit JG51_BlackC5 (myself) up at any time and I or one of or squad trainers will be glad to help.
or hit us up on our website:
http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/index.php

there are several good videos on the site also.
such as

http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...issors-escape/

or

http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...w-17-scissors/

http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...6-loose-deuce/

JG51_BlackC5 CO

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Panser i appreciate your enthusiasm and effort. Makes me smile. Really. I get somewhat proud


Now addressing the points you have made.

1. Any effort to help newcomers is appreciated, by the community and by the newcomers too im sure (once they acknowledge they need to learn "stuff" again).

2. I just question the timming. And i elaborate: We all are going to be "noobs" again. Very soon hopefully. The density bug will change some things around. What is true today it might not be so true when the patch comes out. So i wonder, does it make sense to embrace such a task for now? Not sure. I think a little input from the ones who know more about the future of the FM would be nice to have. Not mandatory, but a "+" to have in this type of initiative.

3. On the other hand some principles shouldnt change, as in, 109s fight in vertical and spits in horizontal (mostly). But what you propose i think its on the verge to change. The way planes behave will dictate how people fight. And that comes with experience and a lot of dieing in the process, doing mistakes and start to avoid them. Its part of the process. There isnt a "solution ready" for the pilot, or, alas, the game would lose all the fun also if you take the unpredictable from the equation. The pilot decision, the move, the instinct aquired by the experience makes many times the diffrence. And this is true for any side one flys to. For any combat sim, really. But how do you pass on experience? Do and repeat? Tell the "how did i did this and why"? - Dont really know.

4. Still, if you decide to come up with some sort of "lessons" or a "Question&Answer" sort of thing over Teamspeak, i volunteer to assist the way i can. Ive done it in the past, can do it again. Its fun

[Perfesser]

I think Panser is reading my mind somehow....

This is exactly what newer people need to feel more confident and become more competent. Heck, I even enjoy teaching some of the finer points of ACM and mostly combat survival if you're willing to put in the time.
Most know how to fly competently enough but few know how to fly as a team. You don't need to have hundreds of hours of stick time to learn the basic skills of combat flying, the earlier the better.
A good combat pilot is a good wingman first.

Perhaps recording a few sessions and a bit of editing would yield some stuff that could be shared among many.

It's worth exploring anyway....
If any newer pilot in the NA timezone wants to be a guinea pig, PM me and maybe we can set something up.

[Blackc5]

ACM is ACM and the nice thing about CloD is that the flight model is accurate enough that real world ACM works as expected (with some exceptions) and I do not see the TF5.0 patch changing that.

one good way to train is thru videos, if a new pilot will spend the time to watch and take notes then practice what he sees it can go a long way, I know that I'm always watching someone else's video and learning some new bit to add to my toolbox.

after the pilot has done the above with the videos then spending time flying on a good pilots wing starts to pull it all together.

with all of this said, these are the shortcuts, and it takes a lot of stick time in fights (and yes getting shot down) to make the learned tactics an instinctive reaction, that is what it has to be to become good at this.


JG51_BlackC5 CO

[ATAG_Pattle]

I'm available to help.

Easier for me to assist new Aussie or NZ pilots from a Timezone perspective.

CloD does require a level of dedication to improvement and time at the start. How much you are willing or able to give is relative to what you want to get out of it.

If anyone wants to wing up with me, just pm me, or if you see me on, sing out in TeamSpeak.

I can always drop us into another's channel so Comms is not a problem.

Same offer goes for people who would like to become more comfortable on Comms, we could have a group on a seperate channel which I can join in.

I understand it is hard to get a word in at times and in reality everyone doesn't need to be on the same channel.

I've been playing for 9 months now, have learnt from a number of players, and particularly from my mistakes. All part of the fun.

So the offer is there.

Pattle

[invictus84]

I'm happy to help in any way I can, tho' I pretty much only fly 109s. Maybe I should join some Spitfire and Hurri sessions as a student myself...if only to see how "the other half live"?

I'd only caution that new pilots should still expect to die ALOT, even after going through training. To quote a wise, Yoda-like figure from the community:

... it takes a lot of stick time in fights (and yes getting shot down) to make the learned tactics an instinctive reaction, that is what it has to be to become good at this.

JG51_BlackC5 CO

Still...it's a great idea. Just let me know how (and when) I can help.

[Pans]

A big thank you to everyone who has offered their help. I think for such an idea to work we'd need a few people from each major timezone - UK/Europe, North America and Aus/NZ... things are looking good so far!

Panser i appreciate your enthusiasm and effort. Makes me smile. Really. I get somewhat proud


Now addressing the points you have made. <snip>

Hi Lolsav, thanks for your kind words. I guess the easiest way to respond to your comments is in order!

1. I understand that not everyone will want to be involved in this. Some might already have enough experience and confidence from other sims to just jump straight in. Others that could benefit from training might just be more interested in getting airborne and loosing off some dakka ASAP. My idea is aimed squarely at the core of the ATAG community – mature gamers willing to learn and work together. A recurrent theme seems to be the new forum member with little or no prior flight sim experience or experience of games past and present with much less "realistic" flight models.

2. We don't know when the next major update is coming and with all due respect we can't hold our breath waiting for uncertain changes. I don't doubt that TF5.0 will appear, but at present we have no idea what will change and we already have a damn fine game worth learning! Besides, is the flight model truly likely to change significantly? Even if it does change, it won't make redundant the experience that players possess. I would imagine any change will be subtle and most likely to affect those at the very top of the skill curve who already fly their aircraft at the limit.

3. Exactly… even if elements of the flight model are altered, the general principles and relative performance of aircraft should not change significantly. What I'm suggesting is not an attempt to create an "ace factory" because the only way that can be achieved is through hundreds of hours of combat practice. I suppose in its simplest terms, I'm suggesting a buddy system for very basic combat training. An environment in which inexperienced players can develop their situational awareness and practice manoeuvring for advantage against one another without having to worry if they lose control or make a mistake. Although it is the brutal reality of what we're simulating, nothing is more dispiriting (and inconvenient) as a new flyer than to successfully get airborne, take care of your engine, fly around for 10 minutes looking for some action to then either find yourself going down in flames at the hands of someone you never even saw coming or to flail around helplessly before being knocked out of the sky.

4. I hadn't considered any formal lesson structure and was thinking that training would be ad hoc. In my mind's eye it was an arrangement between two or more players to practice flying together and attempting to manoeuvre into a firing position on one another. For practicing set-piece manoeuvres, perhaps certain teachings from Johan Kylander's "In Pursuit" would be a good basis for those that would like structure?
I think the other consideration is that people be able to fly the aircraft of their choice from the same field, even if that potentially means 109s flying in RAF colours in the same manner you can fly the sightseeing map offline. I don't know if there is an Allied ammo option comparable to the Beobachtung round, but maybe a loadout like that could be an option for anyone wanting to practice live-fire under these circumstances?

I appreciate that this isn't yet a complete idea so it is very much open to suggestions!

[BOO]

It not the training per se

Sometimes its just knowing that there are people waiting on line who you KNOW are there to help you find your feet. There's a lot of talk of ACMs in here but the biggest bar in the sim isn't skill, its networks. Its about having the confidence to go up to someone and say "teach me that" or "can I fly with you". And that confidence comes from getting to know them. And that comes from flying with someone who knows them already and being introduced casually. And lets face it, if you've done a few months in here and survived it, you pretty much know everyone who matters.

Steam and TS allow you to alter your game name - adding "Happy to Help" or whatever to you name when you are actually happy to help and not just wanting to kill sommat might help new players feel less awkward about approaching you. Once that contact is made, the rest should be easy. Set em up, get em flying, get em introduced and watch em go.

It doesn't need to be anything more than that IMO.

[Pans]

Sometimes its just knowing that there are people waiting on line who you KNOW are there to help you find your feet.

I couldn't agree more with that - having named people to approach rather than just awkwardly asking anybody and everybody makes a huge difference. If nothing else comes of my suggestion, a named "here to help" list would be a great thing to have on the forums.

There's a lot of talk of ACMs in here but the biggest bar in the sim isn't skill, its networks.

Learning to fly and fight at the same time is still a huge bar... it's the difference between learning to ski jump and learning to ski jump one handed while reading a book!