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Thread: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

  1. #31
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Smoke, a few comments:

    1) You'll notice that if you were to draw a line out from his Adam's apple in that photo, it would be roughly over the wingline:

    ~ 90 degrees left, with what looks like the usual max eye rotation of another 15 degrees or so. So, ~105 degrees for the "center" of his FOV.

    His FOV, assuming he has the human standard full 120 degrees (60 left, 60 right) of focus-able, detail discernible vision, ends at about 165 degrees to the rear. And that is with his right shoulder off the seat in near level flight.

    If, given we can't actually measure his position in detail, I concede you an extra 7.5 degrees...there is still a 20 degree rear arc that is unobservable for all but the most rudimentary of peripheral vision. A though experiemtn woudl be seeing if you could count the number of fingers someone holds up directly 75 degrees right of your eyes (outside the focus able 120) - you'll fidn that without shifting you eyes you get the vague impression that fingers are up, but no real accurate count

    2) As for player physical limitations, two points:

    A. This is about limiting head rotation, not changing FOV which is currently set 120 degrees in CLOD. There would be no actual change to the actual player's head movement, only to the virtual character's ability to rotate their head. Physical strain/injury/etc would have the exact same effects as now, perhaps less, given you would be less inclined to rotate your real life head given it would gain you nothing past in-game character's rotation limit. No members of the community would find themselves inconvenienced in terms of physical ability.

    B. The fact that rotating our heads slightly further to each side in front of a computer can be considered a serious and game changing physical strain speaks rather eloquently to the idea that any sustained attempt to observe your own six in flight is probably unrealistic.

  2. #32
    Supporting Member TWC_Mackers's Avatar
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    The rotating of the pilot head and seeing clearly behind is based on the spitfire and 109 in clod? I'm not sure which other craft allow this in the game.

    It is a shame the game doesn't model the pivoting provided from the hips, nor shoulder movement - to aid in rearward viewing. The restraints in wwII were certainly not like the restraints in ejector seats of today. Movement was possible.

    I think attempting to get realworld movements or restrictions into clod would be a waste of effort, unless the pilots upper body movements could be modelled too.

    The reference to players who have realworld injuries is a mute point, to the idea that any sustained attempt to observe your own six in flight is probably unrealistic. Neck\muscle injury was enough to ground a pilot.

    When I check my six in either the Hurricane or Spitfire, I use rudder input to move the tail. How much of a 'cone of hinderence' would you suggest to add to the 180 degree stop-point in the game?

    As for counting fingers, the fact you see the fingers is enough to warrant evaisive moves in flight.

    I think this is a good discussion, mostly so if it does get changed, then hopefully the blenhiem pilot/bomber movement restrictions could be fixed - it's terrible.

  3. #33
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriousRuse View Post
    Smoke, a few comments:

    1) You'll notice that if you were to draw a line out from his Adam's apple in that photo, it would be roughly over the wingline:
    Horsepluckym if you where to dray a line from his iris it's engine to tailplane. Eyes see more than neck rotation your argument is poor. Line of sight is everything. You can see his IRIS!!!!!!!!!!!


    Do you drive? Do you merge?

    I'm really smashed onntequi8lla right now so I'll do better tomoorw.

    As for you input on injury. Suffer spine injury and then come back.

    I am telling you from a back surgery veteran many notice.



    Mackers I agree with you and my photo oh a 109 driver looking back supports your opinion. That old dude is looking straight back checking six in a real life 109.


    Squeaky wheel gets the grease so let us not voice out concern unopposed. Poilitely as possible of course but my natural inclination is aggressive so please reign me in if i go beyond civil conversation.
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Apr-22-2017 at 02:56.

  4. #34
    Supporting Member TWC_Mackers's Avatar
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    SmokeJumper,

    Your tequilla typing skills are far better than my 'normal' typing skills fella !

    My comments, regarding the statement from Rose, saying about the back injuries proving it's point about sustained checking of a six in real life - weren't ment to offend anyone. I crashed a motorbike and have a few problems in the hip/back and neck area, so i have empathy to the gaming wounded. I was trying to say that Rose using gamers physical range of movement, to prove a point about checking the six in the realworld, is not particulary useful.

    To the general topic,

    Sometimes I think the range of movements in the game are so vast to accomplish the sort of contorted positions you would force your entire body into, trying to see who or what was trying to kill you. The game doesn't really capture hip/shoulder movements, nor does any hardware we use to fly (head-only tracking systems). Then again, how tight would a seasoned pilot actually have their restraints? How much movement was there in the padding of flight jackets? I dunno, just seems to be a bridge too far to get full accuracy and realism of this aspect in ClOD.

    I think there are limits to what any games can do, trying to push an old game into the future possibilities of pilot-stance-tracking seems to me, to be a distraction from producing fresh content to play. Maybe when there are suits full of registers to track the pilots body, then further steps towards realism could be achieved. Trying to model it now, to an exacting realism, with just head-tracking - I don't think it's possible or wise to attempt it. Sure trim it down a few degress if the majority want it, I'd still expect the view to atleast contain a part of the tail plane assembly though.

    I love the idea, it sounds wonderful to have each airframe set with, seat, pilot height, clothing material, strap tightness and other configurable items that can also restrict pilot movements - I just don't think any game out there is anywhere close to this (yet tm).

    I thoroughly enjoy this game and I am thankful to the TF team in saving it from the waste pile. I however, accept there are limits to what can be achieved.

  5. #35
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    I've read more than one WWII crash story where a pilot tightens up before he goes in to not smash his face into the gunsight.

    I don't think guys cinched straps up so tight they can't lean about. From jacking up a seat to max height to loose straps guys did everything they could to see. The jacked up seat reference was a Corsair and that pilot got his hair parted by a Japanese bullet. The comment made noteworthy was his seat was all the way down on the return flight.

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  7. #36
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    shift your view point, to include moving your eyes, only 100-105 degrees left or right from where the center of your body is. (Neck 80, torso 5, eye roll 15).
    I just tried this sitting in my desk chair, keeping my back leaned against the back of the seat (ie, more or less as though strapped in place). I can rather easily put the center of my vision on 160 degrees backwards, meaning that 180 degrees back is easily viewable and peripheral vision goes to maybe 230. At any rate, I can see directly behind and even beyond that point rather well.

    Adding to this a bit of a lean forward, torso twist, and lean a bit to the side (what I use to check behind while driving, ie before changing lanes; leaning to the side helps see around various clutter, window columns, etc) I can easily put the center of my vision on 180 degrees and peripheral all the way around to 270 degrees.

    I'm guessing ~20 year old who was accepted into pilot training in the WWII time period could do that well or probably even better. I'm a lot older than 20 yrs old myself, a lot less limber than I was in those days, and they didn't really accept people with physical disabilities as combat pilots.

    FWIW before I spent time working on stuff like this I would spend more time figuring out how to make things like window columns less of a complete visual obstacle. That is extremely unrealistic, as in real life a small movement of your head plus your ordinary binocular vision turns 'massive' window columns into something you can actually just see right through.

    Additionally, some of the bomber models lock the pilot's head in one fixed location, which is EXTREMELY unrealistic. Even totally strapped into a space capsule or whatever you can move your head a few inches one way or another, and this makes a rather huge difference in what you can or can't see. In a larger bomber cockpit you would easily be able to lean over or shift forward/back to get a better view out of (say) a side window. Your head isn't just just locked onto a swivel at one single fixed point.

    Try driving a car with your head locked onto a swivel at one certain fixed point (NO forward/back/up/down/side/side movement allowed), one eye closed, and some kind of blinkers limiting your vision to 60 degrees forward. You an swivel a limited amount side/side or up/down but that's it. For some reason many people think this is the epitome of "realism" in a flight sim environment, and it just isn't. A real driver with a real head that moves forward, back, up, down, side to side, AND swivels, and has a rather huge span of peripheral vision sees a *whole lot* more than the fixed-point, one-eye closed, 60-degree blinkered driver.

    Every driver, and presumably every pilot, uses these ordinary movements every time they drive or fly--because you need them to reasonably see.

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  9. #37
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    I have been following this thread on pilot's cockpit view realism and find it very interesting. I have EDtracker and it works fine, however i would like the most environmental realism as possible and wonder if three monitor screen surround would provide this more closely. I would like to hear comments on this point, especially if any players are using GTX 1070 and a three monitor set up in ClOD.
    ASUS GB20CB Intel I-7 w/Nvidia Geforce GTX 1070, ASUS Swift PG279Q, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro throttle, CH Rudder, EDtracker Pro


  10. #38
    Supporting Member TWC_Mackers's Avatar
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by flug View Post

    Additionally, some of the bomber models lock the pilot's head in one fixed location, which is EXTREMELY unrealistic. Even totally strapped into a space capsule or whatever you can move your head a few inches one way or another, and this makes a rather huge difference in what you can or can't see. In a larger bomber cockpit you would easily be able to lean over or shift forward/back to get a better view out of (say) a side window. Your head isn't just just locked onto a swivel at one single fixed point.
    The Blenny model has the side 'bubbles' in the cockpit glass for added visability, but they are not 'used' in the game. I am hoping, with everything else going on with future patches, that bomber views are looked at and hopefully these 'bubbles' can be utilised soon.

    The Ju88 also has some strange restraints, i've not tried the others.
    Zx Spectrum, 48k. Mono tape player. Loose 3.5mm Jacks that need a wiggle once and a while.

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