He flew spits to Dutch. And he always had spitfires under his command. That pretty much makes him a living expert in my book. Sorry but I did my homework on this and am deserving of an A at least sir.
He flew spits to Dutch. And he always had spitfires under his command. That pretty much makes him a living expert in my book. Sorry but I did my homework on this and am deserving of an A at least sir.
Yep, he did fly Spits after his trip to Malta where he also flew Hurris, but from your homework you'll note that he was a Wing Commander when he retired in 1964. During the Battle of Britain he was a Pilot Officer IIRC, so didn't have anyone 'under his command', other than maybe a couple of Flight Sergeant Pilots.Originally Posted by ATAG_Doc
http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co....ts.html#NielTF
http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co....ons/249sqn.htm
P.S. My criticism was of James Holland by the way, and the editing of the documentary, not Tom Neil himself, who was and is a bloody hero.
Last edited by Dutch; Nov-27-2012 at 09:59.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Neil
"Wing Commander Thomas Francis "Ginger" Neil, DFC*, AFC, AE is a famed World War II Royal Air Force fighter pilot, ace and one of the few remaining survivors of the Battle of Britain.[1] Neil scored a total of 14 kills during the Second World War.[2]
Neil joined the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve in 1938 at the age of 18. He was called up to full-time service at the outbreak of war. He was posted to No. 8 FTS on 1 December 1939 and was commissioned on completion of the course. He was posted to No. 249 Squadron RAF in May 1940 where he flew Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain alongside "Tich Palliser".
Neil was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, on 8 October 1940 and was awarded a Bar to his DFC on 26 November 1940. He embarked with 249 Sqn on HMS Furious on 10 May and sailed for Gibraltar, and on arrival the squadron transferred to HMS Ark Royal. The squadron flew to Ta' Qali on 21 May 1941 to take part in the Battle of Malta.
In December 1941, Neil was transferred and eventually became liaison officer to the US 9th Air Force's 100th Fighter Wing.
Neil retired from the RAF in 1964 at the rank of Wing Commander."
From James Holland's video I had assumed that Tom Neil was referring to flying Spitfires during the Battle of Britain, not Hurricanes.
EDIT: At 27:40 he does say that the Spitfires couldn't keep up with the 109's. So, case closed. Any differing statements (are there any?) by Battle of Britain Spitfire pilots should be disregarded.
Last edited by ATAG_Snapper; Nov-27-2012 at 11:49.
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Blimey, how many do you need? See 'First Light' by Geoff Wellum, chapter 6 page 180 (paperback ed.). He describes Climbing towards a formation of 109's and therefore at an 'energy disadvantage', but flying so as to 'cut them off'. The 109s start to dive towards France....
'I cut the corner still further towards the diving 109. Going to need all the speed I can get for this situation. The Huns have got quite a start on us. I go into fine pitch, press the boost override and open the throttle. With all my attention now focussed on him I can tell to the second when he at last sees me. He steepens his dive and straightens from his turn, heading directly out to sea and home. Obviously he thinks he can outrun me and is relying on the start he has. Well, we can only wait and see because I don't think he has made a very smart move. He has no advantage from his fuel injection. I open the throttle wide and make certain that the boost override is fully pressed. Ease the stick forward and as the nose drops away I plunge after my quarry. Reflector sight on. The Spit accelerates very quickly......This chap is not turning to fight, he's just getting the hell out of it back across the channel. ....He's diving at terrific speed but I should be able to get something off and tickle him up a bit. Tighten the curve of pursuit slightly. The nose comes through and starts to get in the way of my view. No matter, nearly there....fire now.....It's now a stern chase. Another burst, no more than a long shot. What a pity he had those few seconds start on me. My speed is building up the whole time, but we'll be over France before i can really get close to him.'
The 109 started higher, started faster, but Wellum still shot the bloke down and as he says would have caught up to him eventually, had a couple of 'long shots' not brought the 109 down first.
Geoff Wellum is also still alive, therefore also a living expert, and he did fly Spits in the BoB.
Last edited by Dutch; Nov-27-2012 at 12:57.
The only way they could catch a 109 was when the 109 wasn't aware and they would pick up speed on them. The 109 was incompetent and turned sharply. But in a straight and level flight even on the deck the 109 would distance the RAF during the BoB. "You cannot break German planes" says a famous German pilot that was there. You cannot keep up with them. No matter what graph you place before the forum you cannot keep up.
Actually, I see 4 possible explanations:
1.- The spit is faster on the dive
2.- The 109 dove too steep. There's a limit to the E you can convert to speed on a dive. The spit dove in a smaller, more optimal angle and was able to keep max speed for longer at the same cutting into the 109's trajectory.
3.- The 109 thought the spit wasn't following and throttled back.
4.- Any mix of the above 3.
Both 2 and 3 happen a lot in the server and we know about the FM issues where the spit is simply not faster.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
Do not believe everything that is posted on the internet. Anyone including you can edit Wikipedia and adjust it to your liking. I see a lot of docs (<--hehe that's me) and charts posted without any references to anyone that created them. They just exist and could come from any where. Not complete and likely the data contained is well over my head. I am willing to bet everything I got it's over most everyone's head here. Just we have people running around with links and regurgitated info that is quoted as biblical when nothing could be further from the truth in my eyes. And others as I am learning. There is a huge lobby of Spitfire performance people and not one has had their butt strapped into one. heh you know what they say about buttholes huh? Everyone has one.
Last edited by Doc; Nov-27-2012 at 14:02.
Good advice Doc. I won't. Nor in carefully edited documentaries.
Also, don't trust everything you read in forums
And most of all don't trust drunk Irishmen on Teamspeak! heh
I thought drunks didn't lie!And most of all don't trust drunk Irishmen on Teamspeak! heh
Well they never lie Colander. But the do try to hustle you out of a few dollars or drinks to feed their thirst for more. heh
I didn't know you were Irish mate!And most of all don't trust drunk Irishmen on Teamspeak! heh
My great grandmother came to this country as an indentured servant from Ireland. In other words a slave. Yes I'm white.
III./ZG76 2N+ZR
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And?
He asked 'Do you know why the Spitfire is a BETTER AEROPLANE than the Messerschmidt 109? - Any idiot can fly a Spitfire, but it takes a lot of training to fly a 109.'
So your point is what?
Last edited by Dutch; Nov-27-2012 at 21:34.
Just trying to make a joke, don't get your hackles up.
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Salute
It's true. The Spits and Hurricanes were much easier to fly. To quote Werner Molders again:
Landing the 109 was not an easy thing, neither was take off. And that was a disadvantage for novices, Germans lost a lot of 109's and pilots in crash landings."It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land.
So what is this guy advertising? I can't read it.
Oh.
of note here also is the aircraft tested by Molders, both Hurri and Spit (captured in france and after dunkirk) used the two pitch prop, just about all of FC was equipped with the variable pitch prop by the BOB.
Al Dere in his book nine lives had a protracted air battle with 109's over france just before Dunkirk, he was informed the 109 was faster and climbed better yet he was able to outclimb catch and shoot down a 109 in a dogfight then chase and catch another 109 as it tried to escape, luckily for the 109 he was winchester and as he put it he chased it about "simply because I did'nt know how to disengage"
to use anecdotes as a guide to air to air combats you need to look at large numbers of reports and look for trends, cherry picking one example is not realistic, if you read through countless encounters a general trend shows Spits and Hurris outurned 109's, 109's outdove Spits and Hurris and a spit and 109 seemed to have slight advantages over each other in speed and climb dependant on altitude, model, tactical situation and who was flying it, we best gloss over engine/airframe build quality/condition!
when you wade through all those uncertainties all I can say is "I'm glad I am not a flight model designer"!
Yes every situation is different. If you are higher than your opponent and dive on him you have the advantage of speed for a while. That's nothing new.
The 109 was faster and climb a little better. That is a well known.
You can say that again!
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