Would the Developers have chosen a different path if they had the source earlier?

[JG14_Jagr]

I've been deeply involved in flight Sims since the late 80's early 90's. I've seen a lot of Sims come and go and I really loved the original IL2 even though it wasn't a full time server setup like Warbirds had been when the genre really started to take hold online. Before that it was dedicated niche groups that would run various coops on their own. After seeing the evolution of development for several games it is very clear that the WWII ETO theater was BY FAR the most popular in terms of drawing numbers. It may be that its the most well known theater as opposed to the less well known Malta and North Africa. I assume that the Team Fusion chose their development path such that they could show incremental progress while getting good use of the existing work and plane set. My question is if the team had chosen their path AFTER the announcement of the source code becoming available would they have taken a more aggressive path to a more broadly popular theater??

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I've been deeply involved in flight Sims since the late 80's early 90's. I've seen a lot of Sims come and go and I really loved the original IL2 even though it wasn't a full time server setup like Warbirds had been when the genre really started to take hold online. Before that it was dedicated niche groups that would run various coops on their own. After seeing the evolution of development for several games it is very clear that the WWII ETO theater was BY FAR the most popular in terms of drawing numbers. It may be that its the most well known theater as opposed to the less well known Malta and North Africa. I assume that the Team Fusion chose their development path such that they could show incremental progress while getting good use of the existing work and plane set. My question is if the team had chosen their path AFTER the announcement of the source code becoming available would they have taken a more aggressive path to a more broadly popular theater??

TF 5.0 will include the Channel map, and of course, all the updated aircraft will work on that map... in fact some of the new aircraft coming with TF 5.0, like the Spit VA and 109E-7NZ didn't fly in the desert and will only work on the Channel map. Others, like the Dewoitine D.520 saw their first combat in Europe... (later in Syria) So if you mean by 'more broadly popular Theater' the NW Europe areas of France and Britain, then it will already be represented in TF 5.0.

If you mean why didn't we jump to 109K4's and P-51D's... it would have been a lot more work to create an entirely new planeset instead of evolving from the current one. People are already screaming about how long we have taken... Plus, that ultra late war era has kinda been done to death.

And the Desert has never been done officially by any Combat Flight sim in the last 20 years, and it deserved a showcase.

If you are asking if we plan to move forwards in time and bring in later war aircraft... you'll have to wait to see. We are not going to announce anything now.

What I will say is TF doesn't intend to stop with the Desert... we do have large ambitions. And I think serious Combat Flight Sim fans will enjoy what we release.

More detail:

- We had no map tools, had to build our own... made sense to start with a simple map... which the Desert is... not a lot of buildings, cities, etc. When we get more experience, then we can move onto a more complex map

- We had limited numbers of 3D modelers... these models take huge amounts of time.... six months for a cockpit for an experienced (professional level) modeler, and many of our guys were learn as you go. So it made sense to work with the existing models and evolve rather than bite off too big of a chunk to start

- Many of the CoD aircraft fit perfectly into the Desert... could be used without much work

There have been dozens of Flight Sim Developers who have promised a lot and not delivered or who have had to be bailed out after they ran out of money and time... some have had the backing of Kickstarter campaigns and large game studios... we are a small independent group who have no resources but what is between our ears.

I will tell you in the future we would like to do a campaign which is probably the most popular ever... but it has never been done as well or in the detail we intend. But it will take a huge effort to accomplish this... and of course, will require the support of the community buying more copies of CoD and lots of copies of TF 5.0.

I think Oleg Maddox had it right... he followed an evolutionary path... started with IL-2.... first years of the war... ended with IL-2 1946, last years and fantasy after-war.

In the meantime... your question... "What if??? What if??? What if???" Kinda pointless. We were faced with a reality when we started... we planned with that in mind.

[ATAG_Colander]

All I can say is should we had the source code 3 years ago, not only things would have been a LOT easier but the game would be far more advanced by now

[Chivas]

I believe Oleg wanted to develop the COD theaters incrementally through the years of World War 2. Like Buzzsaw suggested its also the most efficient way to develop, as some aircraft developed for the first series can be used in subsequent theaters. The only relatively bad news that I can see is that COD won't be able to develop all the theaters of WW2 because it would step on the toes of the 777 Studios theaters. I also imagine that 777 Studios will likely have the first choice on the theaters they would like to develop. BUT the fact that TF now has the source code is a huge win for the flight sim community.

[Talisman]

Would be great to fly aircraft carrier operations in the Pacific

If that was the next theatre destination I think TFS could be on to an absolute winner!

Happy landings,

56RAF_Talisman

[1lokos]

After seeing the evolution of development for several games it is very clear that the WWII ETO theater was BY FAR the most popular in terms of drawing numbers.

They are more popular from MP point of view because MP players want only "Uber" planes, what a ETO 43-45 and their late war planes is synonymous.

But specially from SP perspective are more interesting places that ETO, like the BoB, MED, early PTO.

[Hurricane]

Western Desert doesn't really interest me, but i will buy v5.0 to support the guys and further development.

My preference would be for an enlargement of the UK & European map.

With a corresponding, lengthening of the time frame covered.

But i will take whatever i can get.

Best wishes,
Mike.

[Chivas]

Would be great to fly aircraft carrier operations in the Pacific

If that was the next theatre destination I think TFS could be on to an absolute winner!

Happy landings,

56RAF_Talisman

I'm not sure, but I think 777Studios has already mentioned they will be doing a Pacific theater for their IL-2 series, so its doubtful that the theater will be available to TF.

[Chivas]

Western Desert doesn't really interest me, but i will buy v5.0 to support the guys and further development.

My preference would be for an enlargement of the UK & European map.

With a corresponding, lengthening of the time frame covered.

But i will take whatever i can get.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Slowly expanding COD further into France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Malta, Sicily, Italy may be TF's options, if 777Studios goes into the Pacific.

[Barone]

MED it has always been a very good MP theatre. Also for American people.

Inviato dal mio Moto G (4) utilizzando Tapatalk

[7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER]

Slowly expanding COD further into France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Malta, Sicily, Italy may be TF's options, if 777Studios goes into the Pacific.

Italy would be bad ass!!!!! Mountains to fly through!!!!

That would be a super fun fight.

[FightingSteel1]

North Africa, and any Mediterranean based operations, are terrific choices to expand into for CLOD. Those areas, and 1941-1943 in general, are undermodeled/represented in combat flight sims. There are choices on the market either past, present, or future for just about everything WWII but where Team Fusion is taking us next.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

TF won't be going to either the Pacific or to the East Front.

We are hopeful however, that we will see Carrier operations at some point.

[Swoop]

When trying to figure out the new theatre competition(what happened with that??), I always thought the Battle of Greece would be really interesting and link in with North Africa well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...941_map-en.svg

[kapitansky]

When trying to figure out the new theatre competition(what happened with that??), I always thought the Battle of Greece would be really interesting and link in with North Africa well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...941_map-en.svg

I approve

[PreyStalker]

TF won't be going to either the Pacific or to the East Front.

We are hopeful however, that we will see Carrier operations at some point.

Carrier ops
Bombing submarines with depth charges
Torpedo bombing battleships

That's not too much to ask is it ???

Pretty please

[Akula93]

Carrier ops
Bombing submarines with depth charges
Torpedo bombing battleships

That's not too much to ask is it ???

Pretty please

HMS-Illustrious-1940.jpg
Maybe someday

[SD_MBen]

Western Desert doesn't really interest me, but i will buy v5.0 to support the guys and further development.

My preference would be for an enlargement of the UK & European map.

With a corresponding, lengthening of the time frame covered.

But i will take whatever i can get.

Best wishes,
Mike.

I reckon the about sum's up flight sims for me.
The French Campaign, Battle of Britain and the Rhubarb and Rodeo theatre's are why I am happy too keep donating to ATS and TF5.0
Ben

[Jugdriver]

After seeing the evolution of development for several games it is very clear that the WWII ETO theater was BY FAR the most popular in terms of drawing numbers.

I would say legacy IL2 Forgotten Battles on the Eastern Front back in the day was pretty damn popular as well, In the early 2000's there would be thousands of people in Hyperlobby playing it online.

I think part of the secret sauce for IL2 FB success was that the battle on the Eastern Front was very tactical in nature, it makes for very interesting, varied and realistic scenarios with lots of action. The same goes for the air war in the North African Desert, it was very tactical in nature and I am sure will give us a lot great scenarios to run!

JD
AKA_MattE

[J2_la00ecrivain]

I've been deeply involved in flight Sims since the late 80's early 90's. I've seen a lot of Sims come and go and I really loved the original IL2 even though it wasn't a full time server setup like Warbirds had been when the genre really started to take hold online. Before that it was dedicated niche groups that would run various coops on their own. After seeing the evolution of development for several games it is very clear that the WWII ETO theater was BY FAR the most popular in terms of drawing numbers. It may be that its the most well known theater as opposed to the less well known Malta and North Africa. I assume that the Team Fusion chose their development path such that they could show incremental progress while getting good use of the existing work and plane set. My question is if the team had chosen their path AFTER the announcement of the source code becoming available would they have taken a more aggressive path to a more broadly popular theater??

Why do you think that North Africa is less popular theather? Speaking for myself I think i will enjoy it same as BOB if not even more. Its a breath of fresh (sandy ) air. Love the planes TFS is doing for it and I think they couldn't choose a more perfect theater! It will be lots of fun to fly over the desert for a change. Don't get this " aggressive path to a more..." What is that supposed to mean?

[Swoop]

Flying the SEOW Malta campaign against real Italians was tense and a blast. Took about 20-30 minutes of patrolling before it all kicked off and trying to get a convoy in was intense. Imagine in the CLOD engine, drool.

[JG14_Jagr]

Why do you think that North Africa is less popular theather? Speaking for myself I think i will enjoy it same as BOB if not even more. Its a breath of fresh (sandy ) air. Love the planes TFS is doing for it and I think they couldn't choose a more perfect theater! It will be lots of fun to fly over the desert for a change. Don't get this " aggressive path to a more..." What is that supposed to mean?

For several reasons it will not be as popular. One big reason is that the type of air combat was VERY different. It was also very less well known historically and quite simply not as popular to the average flight simmer. The desert also shared a limited plane set that is roughly the same as the existing theater (which is also a MAJOR PLUS from a development standpoint since you can reuse or partially re use existing material). My point was that in game development numbers are the name of the game. Flight simmers are a VERY SMALL niche to target and you want to "cast a wide net" at that target audience. Incremental development in the ETO from the BoB is fairly well known and popular. The logical dev path would have been to introduce the Spit MkV and the 109F and Fw190A series. Then add early US aircraft (P47 and B17). By the standards of popularity would attract more people to the project than the desert. It might not be fair to undersell the importance of the North African campaign but its simply not as well know. As I said, since they didn't have, and probably didn't expect to get this access they didn't get the opportunity to think of this and that's why I asked the question

[Mysticpuma]

Spit V and 109F will also be available to use in.the Channel Map, as-well as the Wellington Bomber. Plenty of variety to work with outside of North Africa. Plus multiple fixes to.the Channel Map, so it's still a viable option. TFS v5.00 will have a lot of content, not just NA

[Hurricane]

Whatever TFS does, i am in. I crash on take off i crash on landing, i get lost on the map. I am totally cr*p

I walk away from the PC but then 20 mins later, i am back on. Firing up CLOD, for a another addictive dose.

Got to be better than running around the back garden, with a Airfix Hurricane in one hand and a ME 109 in the other.

Like i did many many times during the 1950's - early 1960's.

Best wishes,
Mike.

[DerDa]

Well, I don’t think anybody could reasonably predict which theatre is more popular with the community. Unless there is a poll, all you can say is what you yourself and some buddies do prefer.

That said, I think North Africa is an outstandingly good option, because:
a) it gives us a really different looking map
b) it gives us exciting new planes, including American ones that might bring us new players from the states
c) it opens the possibility for interesting new missions, just because air war was different
d) it fits into the timeline
e) it is very well known and popular thanks to a considerable number of movies (and is often somewhat romanticised as the last chivalrous war).

I can’t think of a better choice for the next step of CloD, whatever the circumstances are.

In addition it seems forgotten that TFS 5.0 is not only about the desert. The plane set works on the channel as well. And I really, really hope the Dewoitine will be the start for some ‘Battle of France’ scenarios.

And afterwards? Malta, Sicily, Italy, Greece, Crete, Normandy, N/W Germany … there is so much to dream about!

S!

DerDa

[Bonditaria]

multiple fixes to.the Channel Map

IT HAS BEGUN!!!

Activity

From 03/08/2017 to 04/06/2017
Today

09:38 AM Bug #590 (In Progress): swimming pools on the channel map
TF_Artist

swimming pools on the channel map

Added by Gix almost 3 years ago. Updated about 1 hour ago.
Status:
In Progress

https://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/590#note-13

[ATAG_Lolsav]

And another one! https://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/798#change-2748

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

Glad people are watching the bug tracker.

[ATAG_SKUD]

I think N. Africa is a great choice, I second reasons given earlier, very tactical and never been done before. I think a lot of ground vehicles raising huge dust clouds would be real attractive to Stukas and Blenheims. When I was a kid I was fascinated by one book at the school library "Desert War in North Africa" . The library card had my name on it up and down both sides! I've often pondered what would the war have been like if Germany had focused its attention on N. Africa instead of USSR. Closed the loop back to Greece through the Middle East and captured the oilfields. Also, big stocks of uranium in Algeria. History may have been very different. There were a large contingent of politically connected oligarchs that wanted to do just that. They also had a major presence in the Luftwaffe. The Geschwader emblem of JG27 at the time is testimony to this.

SKUD

[Baffin]

The evolution of this thread points out a major risk when moving away from the "Battle of Britain" theme. Diversity leads to a drop in specific quality, much like what would happen if McDonald's tried to become a 4-star restaurant. When you serve an exceptional burger, concentrate on the market that made you famous, and never mind trying to serve pork chops. In my opinion, CLoD has laid the groundwork for THE MOST popular combat simulator EVER by remaining specifically dedicated to the period from September, 1939 to June, 1941 (Barbarossa). Pursuing simulations of other theaters of operation may sufficiently dilute the Battle of Britain enthusiasm base to the point where we end up with two "Not so great" games competing against each other for active participants.

In my opinion, the North African campaigns should be put on hold until the Battle of Britain scenario has been [nearly] perfected and offers a large livery of both Axis and Allied aircraft encompassing [nearly] the entire historic battle area and time period. Team Fusion Simulations has a multitude of technical hurdles to face, from sound glitches to video improvements that will be hard enough to vault over with just a single battlefield. To add another theater before we fix the current one seems to me to be a less than optimal allocation of resources.

Finally, with a commercial element creeping into the game's future development, the corporate officers of Team Fusion Simulations are well advised to consider the motivation of their customers for buying "IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover", in the first place. They probably didn't shell out for the original game in order to play at defending Tobruk. It will be a wonderful thing to have the option for North African operations after the game we originally signed on for is in [nearly] perfect working order.