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Thread: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

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    Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Hurricane Mk1 (all types) Undercarriage and Flap Control.



    A single hydraulic pump supplies the power for operating the undercarriage and flaps. Selection of the desired operation of the undercarriage or flaps is by means of a selector lever. The selector lever works in a gate, having a neutral position and an UP and DOWN position for both undercarriage and flaps.

    In the historical aircraft, a single source of power could be directed towards only one action at a time by means of a selector lever. This must mean they could never have flaps and undercarriage in powered movement at the same time.

    But in the game you can issue keyboard or joystick button commands to lower or raise undercarriage and flaps simultaneously on the Hurricane Mk1's, and you can see flaps and undercarriage in powered movement at the same time in external views.

    The single physical selector lever/single pump system seems to be modelled as two independent logical levers (and two hydraulic pumps), one for flaps, one for undercarriage, each with an up, neutral and down position.

    Expected behaviour is you cannot do hydraulic power operations on both flaps and undercarriage simultaneously in the Hurricane's fitted with this system.

    Is bug or feature?

    === Added by Artist ===
    Bugtracker entry here: https://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/855
    Last edited by Artist; Apr-25-2017 at 14:34. Reason: added bugtracker link

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    That's a good observation.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    The question is that CloD original dev's try imitate DCSW way (I see a topic of guy saying how they and his mates influenced Luthier about when Ka-50 Black Shark came in ~2008), but without historic compromise with planes operation, tying fit the IL-2 "gamey" operation - that initially (2001) was more "gamey" than previous released "combat flight sim", in the "click'pits world".

    The released CloD in March, 2011 had a very generic and wrong "CEM" - the actual G.50 incongruities is remain of this, as this plane has the lowest importance in BoB fighters list.

    On the other side you see there players complaining about Bf 109/Hurricane has neutral in landing gear operation, they want just press "G" for up/down, F/V for flaps etc, this illustrate the original dev's dilemma with "gameplay" options.

    And you see the same in DCSW forum, people complaining that Mig-21Bis landing gear operation is too "realistic" to fit in their CH HOTAS throttle, that has only press buttons, or this or that module can't fit in their Warthog HOTAS ON/OFF switches way to operate, this people want convenience, not "realism".
    Last edited by 1lokos; Apr-24-2017 at 18:53.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Hi Bonditaria,

    can you find anything in Pilot's Notes of the Hurricane on this? There must be according instructions...

    1lokos is probably correct, a dilemma. But if you're right, I still would like to have it in the bugtracker.

    Thanks,
    Artist

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    OP is correct... but I am not sure we can do anything about this due to the way the game engine is structured. (and most game engines like this)

    There is no way to combine the functions of two separate controls in one such that there is a single control for both flaps/gear, with multiple steps, ie. select flaps or gear, then select up, neutral or down.

    Controls are set up to manage one element... not two. Even if we did somehow re-write the code to allow two elements under one control, then it still would not replicate the real life situation... in the actual aircraft one can select flaps to neutral with one motion... one command... if we changed the code... player would need to first select flaps, then select neutral... two commands.

    So not sure we would satisfy the concerns of OP even if we re-wrote code.

    Considering everything else we have on our plate, I don't think we can make this a priority.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Thanks for all your responses. I'll just carry on not deploying flaps and UC at the same time voluntarily!

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    That's funny Bondi. I posted questions about realism Buzz answered that I'm going it wrong and now I fly my Hurricane with a closed canopy.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonditaria View Post
    Hurricane Mk1 (all types) Undercarriage and Flap Control.



    A single hydraulic pump supplies the power for operating the undercarriage and flaps. Selection of the desired operation of the undercarriage or flaps is by means of a selector lever. The selector lever works in a gate, having a neutral position and an UP and DOWN position for both undercarriage and flaps.

    In the historical aircraft, a single source of power could be directed towards only one action at a time by means of a selector lever. This must mean they could never have flaps and undercarriage in powered movement at the same time.

    But in the game you can issue keyboard or joystick button commands to lower or raise undercarriage and flaps simultaneously on the Hurricane Mk1's, and you can see flaps and undercarriage in powered movement at the same time in external views.

    The single physical selector lever/single pump system seems to be modelled as two independent logical levers (and two hydraulic pumps), one for flaps, one for undercarriage, each with an up, neutral and down position.

    Expected behaviour is you cannot do hydraulic power operations on both flaps and undercarriage simultaneously in the Hurricane's fitted with this system.

    Is bug or feature?
    I'd say neither... If you have "Anthropomorphic" turned on then you would not be able to work both controls at the same time. I'd guess this is what the game designers intended, but that setting is buggy, in that small fluctuations in the control potentiometers may make it seem as if you are moving 2 controls at once, when in reality it is small voltage changes inherent in the use of electronic controls, resulting in everyone turning off that setting. If you want to be true to life you would design your controls in such a way that you can't actuate them both at the same time. I believe someone made a Hurricane hydraulic control in one of the cockpit threads (darned if I can find it now) which did this very thing. I've thought about doing it myself, and have a design in mind, for if and when I ever finish all my other projects.

    I'd even commercialize it if I thought I could sell more than 3. I've taken to doing the same as you... I just try to remember to do them separately.
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    Last edited by Kendy for the State; Apr-25-2017 at 14:21.
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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Make a control switch like Nails and you prevent yourself to exploit the commands.

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ll=1#post63060

    At least in CloD the controls flexibility (that some complain against, for then is "complicated") allow a pit'builder do this kind of control.
    In IL-2 BoS and their dumb "less keys is better" (...for catch new casual players) rule for controls is not possible use this kind of control,
    there is just press 'X' for turn this ON, and press 'X' again for turn OFF.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Apr-25-2017 at 14:42.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendy for the State View Post
    If you have "Anthropomorphic" turned on then you would not be able to work both controls at the same time.
    I had to check if this was true but sadly it is still possible to operate UC and flaps simultaneously with "Anthropomorphic" turned on. I really wanted it to be true because it would mean the code was in there somewhere, but it isn't!

    I like the way Nails solved the problem in his cockpit project, but I'll just carry on using four buttons. Very occasionally, perhaps at the end of a mission online when you get a minute to land... well I have sometimes cheated, but it doesn't feel right! At least the extra hydraulic abilities do not give very much combat advantage!

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonditaria View Post
    I had to check if this was true but sadly it is still possible to operate UC and flaps simultaneously with "Anthropomorphic" turned on. I really wanted it to be true because it would mean the code was in there somewhere, but it isn't!

    I like the way Nails solved the problem in his cockpit project, but I'll just carry on using four buttons. Very occasionally, perhaps at the end of a mission online when you get a minute to land... well I have sometimes cheated, but it doesn't feel right! At least the extra hydraulic abilities do not give very much combat advantage!
    Sorry, guess I should have double-checked before I made that statement...I just assumed...

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Think the "Anthropo'thing" work only for axes - but bad quality in joysticks pot' prevents the idea to became practice.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    I geek out and return my pump to neutral when i'm in a hurricane, i think it's OCD sometimes hehe.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    I thought if the Anthropomorphic is on, it prevents you from pushing many buttons and axis.

    Axis change in tiny digital numbers makes the axis as an active control and activates the lock when to many axis and keys are active, got explained by Kendy for the State and is probably the reason why Anthropomorphic is an issue.

    So it prevents you from pushing to many buttons and sliding axis, but has no influence in activated lever controls in the virtual cockipt.

    So if the plane got an lever at specific position (active for gear or flaps does no matter) , Anthropomorphic will do nothing because you don't press any keys or use any axis.

    Me thinks a solution would be to have both at neutral, to be able to change a lever to active (up/down). However you would have to switch neutral everytime after flaps or gear are up or down.

    Edit: Theres somehting like this already in the game, I don't know if bug or feature but at the JU88, if you selected single drop, you cannot change the number of bombs for the interval until you changed from single to interval drop. Same with salve, you cannot change bomb slot until you selected single drop or interval.
    Last edited by Tibsun; Apr-25-2017 at 19:34.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    This in Ju-88 and Blenheim switches salvo selector is bug.

    BTW - In DCSW Mig-21BIS if you don't put the LG lever in neutral after retract wheels has a penalty, your compress air will continues venting and ran out, so when you landing has no brakes.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibsun View Post
    I thought if the Anthropomorphic is on, it prevents you from pushing many buttons and axis.

    Axis change in tiny digital numbers makes the axis as an active control and activates the lock when to many axis and keys are active, got explained by Kendy for the State and is probably the reason why Anthropomorphic is an issue.

    So it prevents you from pushing to many buttons and sliding axis, but has no influence in activated lever controls in the virtual cockipt.

    So if the plane got an lever at specific position (active for gear or flaps does no matter) , Anthropomorphic will do nothing because you don't press any keys or use any axis.

    Me thinks a solution would be to have both at neutral, to be able to change a lever to active (up/down). However you would have to switch neutral everytime after flaps or gear are up or down.

    Edit: Theres somehting like this already in the game, I don't know if bug or feature but at the JU88, if you selected single drop, you cannot change the number of bombs for the interval until you changed from single to interval drop. Same with salve, you cannot change bomb slot until you selected single drop or interval.
    88, would say it is a feature. If in single mode, thats one bomb from the bay selected. In salvo mode, thats all the bombs and all the bays, no matter what you have previously selected, it will now drop all bombs from all the bays at exactly the same time.

    If in series, that is when the number of bombs matters. Once again you can select from which bay. If all bays are selected, it will drop from bay 1, then 2, then 3 (externals) at whatever spacing you picked.

    As far as setting up before hand, select series then how many bombs you want to drop and how much spacing between them, then you can go back to single and from what bay. I do this when bombing ships. I go series, 2 bombs, 0 spacing, I then switch to bay 3 and single for the externals. Once they are all dropped, I switch back to all bays and series. I will now have 14 drops of 2 bombs with 0 spacing.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Getting back to the Hurricane MkI and my apologies for further muddying the waters, but I believe the picture in Bonditaria’s original post is of the later selector unit as used in the Hurricane MkII and should not be in the Hurricane MkI.

    The original Hurricane MkI unit did not have the red catch to the left of the knob, but did have a hydraulic pump lever outboard of the selector unit which had to be pressed in order to activate the selection made.

    However, I cannot be certain that the earlier unit was not upgraded later inthe MkI’s life.


    From AP 1564A Volume I (March 1939) Hurricane I Aeroplane,Merlin II Engine:








    As for the controls in CloD, my gaming computer is in bitsat the moment so I can’t check the operating sequence but as a fix at somepoint in the distant future, rather than totally rewrite that entire section ofcode would it be possible to use two flags added to the code: Flaps_InUse and Undercarriage_InUse ?

    Flaps would then only be allowed to operate if the Undercarriage_InUse flag was not set (false), meaning selector lever was at idle position for the undercarriage AND indicator Up OR indicator Down lights are lit. If Undercarriage_InUse flag is set (true) then Flaps control is ignored until undercarriage has finished travelling.


    Similar would be necessary for the Flaps_InUse flag but this should mean that you wouldn’t need to change the control key assignments. However, it would mean the pilot would have to ensure the selector is returned to idle/neutral after use otherwise the alternate control could not be used.


    This is just an idea, me thinking out loud. I hope this makes some sort of sense as my brain has just goneAWOL!!

    ~S~
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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    CloD Hurricanes modelling is based on Russian documentation of Hurricanes send for there at end of 1941, not in B of B era Hurricanes.

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    It would appear, for whatever reason, that my post above didn't come out quite as I had intended.

    The missing items are as follows...

    From AP 1564 Volume I (March 1939) Hurricane I Aeroplane, Merlin II Engine:







    @1lokos, what you're saying is quite understandable and it was not my intention to overly criticise the original devs or the historical sources they used.

    I know that these Pilot's Notes and such manuals are sometimes near impossible to find.

    The ones I have got have been picked up as repros, reprints, originals and anywhere I find them on the internet in electronic format as is the case in this instance.

    I still have many to find and I'm basically only concentrating on the planes the RAF used during the war.

    ~S~
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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Getting back to the Hurricane MkI and my apologies for further muddying the waters
    Thanks for the extra information Marco, I've added it to the bugtracker. Don't worry about muddying the waters, the can of worms was already open!

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    Re: Hurricane Undercarriage and Flap Control.

    It's amazing how rudimentary all the flight systems were.
    I would be scared senseless to fly one of those.
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