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Thread: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    The corkscrewing is most likely from vortices generated by wing structures
    Looks that you are confusing "Apple and Oranges, this videos/screenshots show "corkscrew" in (phosphor) smoke from bullets, not from wing/wingtips (what .303 bullets don't have).

    https://youtu.be/mjjg8lR1yt8?t=24

    The Zeppelin video above show how are generated.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Feb-23-2019 at 13:36.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    YYYYEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Hats off to Team Fusion for incorporating these awesome smoke tracers into the sim. I've wanted this for years - thanks so much guys.

    SMOKE TRACERS!!!!!.jpg

    One thing I noticed, the german rear gunners were shooting smoke tracers as well. Did the german MG tracers have the smoke trails as well in real life? Cool stuff.

    Just hopefully we still have some regular no smoke tracers available for the RAF for when 5.0 comes out and we'll be flying 1941 scenarios where RAF smoke tracers had been phased out.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Loving them too.

    And 1941 is two weeks away at best...

    So plenty of time to enjoy what we have right now in good old 1940.


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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    These smoke tracers look great, good work!

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    Looks that you are confusing "Apple and Oranges, this videos/screenshots show "corkscrew" in (phosphor) smoke from bullets, not from wing/wingtips (what .303 bullets don't have).

    The Zeppelin video above show how are generated.
    Bullets/projectiles are ballistic. They don't corkscrew along a ballistic flight path. By wing structures, I meant all protrusions from the wing... with bullets impacting, there are quickly a whole lot of vortex generators created by deformed metal and wrecked propellers. If tracer was designed to corkscrew, wouldn't they all show this behavior?

    However, I defer to rel4y 's experience. If he says he has witnessed spiral smoke when fired out of a rifle barrel, who am I to disagree? I must admit that it's a very peculiar design characteristic, though...
    Last edited by Baffin; Jan-23-2019 at 10:41. Reason: Deference
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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    Bullets/projectiles are ballistic. They don't corkscrew along a ballistic flight path. By wing structures, I meant all protrusions from the wing... with bullets impacting, there are quickly a whole lot of vortex generators created by deformed metal and wrecked propellers. If tracer was designed to corkscrew, wouldn't they all show this behavior?

    I defer to rel4y 's experience. If he says he has witnessed spiral smoke when fired out of a rifle barrel, who am I to disagree? I must admit that it's a very peculiar design characteristic, though...
    The smoke comes out the side of the bullet. The bullet is spinning. Seems right to me that the smoke trail would corkscrew.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    Bullets/projectiles are ballistic. They don't corkscrew along a ballistic flight path.
    Why weapons like WWII era machine guns have an helical riffling grooves in their barrels?

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  10. #38
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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    You could technically make a case for wear and damage on top of the rifling already in the barrels. They spiral even more if the bullet gets damaged as seen in the video below. You also wouldn't know what condition the barrel rifling and the receivers were in at the time, as tips could get damaged as they were being fed.



    Given Relay's description of how the bullet was destabilized in flight by phosphorous, the photos shown, and the above video, it all seems legit.
    Last edited by 69th_Zeb; Jan-22-2019 at 23:22.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Flare View Post
    The smoke comes out the side of the bullet. The bullet is spinning. Seems right to me that the smoke trail would corkscrew.
    Interesting discussion point. I sense that the bullet spins much too fast for this to happen. My .30 Caliber rifles usually have a twist of about one turn per 12". This translates to about 3 revolutions per yard, which would create a visual "cylinder" as opposed to a "corkscrew" looking trace. Regarding the flight path... we're looking at the vented WP smoke, not the bullet. What's happening in serviceable tracer bullets is not what happens in the deformed bullets in Zeb's very interesting video. No manufacturer would ever intentionally design tracers to actually fly differently from the projectiles it is supposed to be tracing! I tend to go with rel4y's personal observation on this visual effect. It's hard to explain why this happens, and harder to explain why the manufacturer would ever intentionally design tracers this way. Since later tracers were designed with an axial vent trail, not a side vent, they might have been correcting the earlier error!
    Last edited by Baffin; Jan-23-2019 at 12:03.
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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    I think that's the point though. The phosphorus exiting the side of the bullet would create differential pressure to produce the same effect.

    By the way, I have no say on any of this within TF, I just find the discussion interesting. Does the same effect happen with 303 ball?
    Last edited by 69th_Zeb; Jan-23-2019 at 14:05.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    Why weapons like WWII era machine guns have an helical riffling grooves in their barrels?
    To gyroscopically stabilize the projectile.
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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Zeb View Post
    I think that's the point though. The phosphorus exiting the side of the bullet would create differential pressure to produce the same effect.
    Good point... but is it enough pressure to matter? Lead bullets are pretty dense... I ask rel4y: When you fired tracer in your rifler, was the accuracy significantly reduced? Did the group shift down?

    It seems to me that Zeb's pressure issue would lead to "Key Holing" at tracer burnout. Most of us have seen this on the range when a bullet hole in the target is oblong instead of round. It increases drag, therefore drop, but not a lot of windage error is necessarily induced... the bullet just tries to fly sideways, so the ballistic coefficient quickly goes south.

    Great discussion! Is this horse dead yet?
    Last edited by Baffin; Jan-23-2019 at 12:04.
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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    To gyroscopically stabilize the projectile.
    ... and:


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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    Yeah I think the effect would be similar to tumbling except that the bullet point would be ahead and not head over heels. Bullet tumble would be undesirable.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    The bullets are perfectly accurate. The white phospherous burns pretty violently and a flame/gas shoots out of the little hole with significant initial velocity. So the bullet itself goes straight (obviously normal gyroscopic precession), but the flame pushes the smoke further out of the flightpath so it creates the pronounced spiral effect which widens over time.

    like I said earlier, the hole is placed in the mass plane so it will not tumble and the orthogonal forces to the bullet direction are not enough to overpower spin stabilization.
    Last edited by rel4y; Jan-23-2019 at 17:45.

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    Re: Historically Correct "Smoke" tracers for RAF aircraft?

    As is "norm" in CloD - change there, a unwanted change appear here, Spit machine guns don't produce more visible fire when bullets leave barrel, instead an (weird) vortex of smoke in barrel tip.



    https://youtu.be/BaHZuqgtabY?t=31

    So far, so good, firing effect in games is usually overdone.

    In 4.50+ the "new" fire looks a bit out of place in machine guns - visible if no tracers belts is used:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1667527482

    This movie frame only smoke is visible in barrel tips.

    https://youtu.be/gj7z2UI6ZV8?t=293
    Last edited by 1lokos; Feb-26-2019 at 11:53.

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