Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Bomber cover

  1. #1
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    56
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Bomber cover

    TO THE FIGHTER JOCKS OUT THERE.

    if you call out over the radio that you will be giving FIGHTER cover to a bomber.

    Fighter cover means you give the expectation to the bomber pilot to be more daring or at the very least. A pair of human eyes at his back.

    It does not mean being 5, 10 or 15 miles away or so high up or away from the bomber that your chewed up and dead before your help can be rendered.

    Time and time again. Well meaning FIGHTER JOCKS say .I got ya. Never to be around when you need them.

    Am I the only one experiencing this problem? Any thoughts or in put?

    Know if you choose to follow a bomber to target. Know your guaranteed to get into a scrap.

    Any thoughts what the best cover is? Place, altitude to give such support?

    looking forward to see what hornets nest if any I have started. But I believe it's something that is well over due that needs to be addressed ..

    Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    5 mins from the Red Arrows, 1 min from a good pub.
    Posts
    2,667
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5
    Total Downloaded
    1.01 GB

    Re: Bomber cover

    What fighter cover is in a sim and what it was IRL are two totally different things. Unless you are organising a server full of players with a script and a clear structure, the chances of you having your ass handed to you by a lone fighter are high.

    Fighter cover IRL was never an impenetrable barrier. It was there to try and stop sustained attacks that would take a higher toll of a large formation. Additionally that formation would be able to put down a greater amount of defensive fire too. But the toll was still high. Even with RL aircraft being more resistant to enemy fire that we perhaps have in some cases now.

    As a lone bomber, now lit up on TAB 7-1 by your escort you are always going to be vulnerable to a single fast pass. After that you stand a chance IF your cover is at an advantage.

    But - there is almost nothing a fighter spotting the bandit at anything other than max distance can do. Especially if that bandit is higher and faster. Especially, especially if there are more banditos than defenders. Especially X4 when you can just go grab another fighter if the attack goes tits up.

    Close escort are prone to being rendered impotent by fast strikes from the front or above - sweeps may miss a fighter or not spot the 110/Blen F or Beau.

    Your alt also matters - I gave up flying FNBF on BOS because frankly I got sick of being bounced by Migs whilst flying at 2K trying to cover JU52s flying a 50M. What I'm saying is that putting a bomber within a height range that is congested, easy to reach and get above isn't going to help your cover because they are going to end up sandwiched, circling you like a bait ball.

    Coms also plays its part - if I'm talking to you and you to me, we have perhaps a mutual investment in each other - if however I offer to escort you and that's all the communication we have, I'm more prone to loose interest, especially if you start altering direction without telling me.

    In short - unless its one of a select few pilots, having one or two fighters as CLOSE escort is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Picking a longer route and having fighters sweep is perhaps a better option but takes much more skill and the part of the bomber and the fighters. The chances of picking up a casual escort and it actually working is slim. Whatever the case, as a bomber pilot you need to always think about where you put yourself to give your cover the best advantage - not the other way around.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Regards

    BOO
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

  3. Likes PreyStalker liked this post
  4. #3
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    56
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Bomber cover

    Awesome. I think it's a great topic to put out there. Some of your points boo. Are right on the money. Maybe who ever offers. Like you said. Its up to the pilots to make sure an effective, constant communication is there. Yes it does take skill for a FIGHTER jock to look after, one of a better word the bomber. But for sure . if the FIGHTER is looking for a scrap. What better way to find one is to follow a bomber.

    By the way BOO.your the man with the bomber missions. Love them...wish they were more often than once a month. Your thoughts on this subject is huge..thankyou

    Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk

  5. #4
    Supporting Member PreyStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Mountains of Bulgaria, beaches of Spain and Italy, UK when I have to
    Posts
    202
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    246.12 MB

    Re: Bomber cover

    In the game, the best thing fighters can do to protect low level bombers is to act as a decoy and lure enemy fighters away from the target zone. This leaves the bombers free to slip in unnoticed.

    Trying to give close protection at low level is useless, especially in a 109. At high altitude, close protection can be more effective but there has to be sufficient numbers, otherwise it's pretty useless there too.

    The recent Boomer raid proved how difficult it is to protect bombers at low level. The combined might of JG4 and 9.JG52 squadrons could do little to prevent the RAF defenders obliterating the entire bomber formation.

    My advice.... fill your bomber with crack human gunners !

    My not so expensive COD rig:
    Windows 7 64 bit
    ASRock b75m r2 motherboard - new
    Intel Core i5 3570 @ 3.4ghz - used
    MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4GB - used
    8gb Crucial Ballistix Sport 1600 ram - new
    Samsung 250gb 850 EVO ssd - new
    EVGA 500 B power supply - new
    Thrustmaster T16000m stick - new
    EDTracker - used / DELAN CLIP PS3 CAMERA - new
    CH Gameport Pro Pedals - used

  6. Likes BOO, 9./JG52 Sturm liked this post
  7. #5
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    5 mins from the Red Arrows, 1 min from a good pub.
    Posts
    2,667
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5
    Total Downloaded
    1.01 GB

    Re: Bomber cover

    Quote Originally Posted by JENDAR View Post
    Awesome. I think it's a great topic to put out there. Some of your points boo. Are right on the money. Maybe who ever offers. Like you said. Its up to the pilots to make sure an effective, constant communication is there. Yes it does take skill for a FIGHTER jock to look after, one of a better word the bomber. But for sure . if the FIGHTER is looking for a scrap. What better way to find one is to follow a bomber.

    By the way BOO.your the man with the bomber missions. Love them...wish they were more often than once a month. Your thoughts on this subject is huge..thankyou

    Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk
    People like D-rock and Freya plus groups like 9/52, JG4, Stg 129 and the 71st make the events. Not me. I'm no expert that's for sure.

    As Prey Stalker points out, running low gives even the best an impossible task - running low in numbers also seems to increase the rubber banding making it even harder (more flak, more terrain detail etc to task the bandwidth). As he also says, if you run low, you're best running alone and using the fighters as a distant shield (good luck with co-ordinating that one!!)

    One thing that does seem to be a self fulfilling prophecy is the "running into the jaws of death" tactic - A-B is NOT a great idea that's for sure.

    The final little thing is the run over target - it wont work every time but as a bomber, you want to drop - as a defender you want to stop the drop - conventional basic thinking means that the defender puts themselves between your shortest route IN and the likely target. If you can therefore pick a deviated route that a) keeps em guessing and b) better still puts you on the other side of the target than the direction they expect (TAB 7-1 only here) you stand a better chance - especially if you have been clever with your fighters and had them follow the A-B route to draw the defenders towards them.

    All theory though - worked well enough in SOW but there you had more punitive consequences for loosing your plane and a slightly different radar set up.

    Bests

    BOO
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

  8. #6
    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,195
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    164.95 MB

    Re: Bomber cover

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    People like D-rock and Freya plus groups like 9/52, JG4, Stg 129 and the 71st make the events. Not me. I'm no expert that's for sure.
    These events require many pilots to play their roll. In this case Freya and I are just helping. This is your lead, Boo. This discussion probably wouldn't be here either, if you hadn't stepped up to the plate and made it happen. This community benefits greatly from people like you. Keep it up.


    Escorting, like every other aspect of this sim, requires a lot of practice. It took me a long time to learn the most effective ways to support your bombers.

    Allowing your enemy to drag you away only works when you have more escorts then interceptors.

    Dogfighting 5 miles behind bombers is not escorting. The enemy has tied you up and used comms to give away your bomber's position.

    Decoys rely on too much luck. The enemy is just as smart as your are, but he can be fooled.

    While flying close air support, I only engage an enemy that becomes a direct threat to my bomber. If he disengages, so do I. If he dives away, let him. Alone, I fly a 12high 'S' pattern to keep speed up and never get further than 5 seconds away from bombers.

    The more escorts, the more of a safe sphere around the bombers can be established. Keeping those bombers close to each other really helps the escorts, as well.

    1 escort. 12 high, S pattern.

    2 escorts. 10/2 high.

    3 escorts. 3/9/12 high.

    4 escorts. 3/6/9/12 high.

    An so on...


    If you have enough escorts, select a few for long range support. These are the fighters that are going to run your decoys, long range interceptors, target sweeps, flak decoys,...your multipurpose pilots.

    Your enemy will always be looking for a new way to attack if the old way doesn't work. He will adapt, and so must you. What works for one mission, could get you all killed in the next.

    A few fighters willing to dedicate themselves to the BOOmers is essential.


    ~S~

  9. Likes BOO liked this post
  10. #7
    Team Fusion
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    711
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    497.6 KB

    Smile Re: Bomber cover

    Good points gents.

    I had this discussion at work about Blenheims being used as bait for some missions (IRL). The fighters could then engage the interceptors during their climb phase, etc.

    From a personal standpoint, I expect 2 passes from an enemy before realistically seeing an escort engage. I feel our primary job is to place hits on target, but my secondary mission is to give my fellow bombers/fighters (and in some cases, flak gunners like Fab48) the advantage they need to win. Sharing these experiences with others and laughing about it later is what it's all about for me. To a certain extent, it's also good to get into it and vent some on the forums when something goes way bad. I think it makes the good times that much better. It gives the experience that "high dynamic range". There are plenty of escorts out there that are gut-wrenched when their ships don't make it back. It's also pretty well-documented that a lot of pilot jocks of the time cared more about their ace status than actually escorting.

    During the last Blenny raid, some guys didn't like that we were out in the open getting picked off. I honestly loved how realistically unfair it was. We were making all the same mistakes the crews made back then. The crews also didn't like the tactics back then either and would complain about inexperienced crew or incompetent escorts.

    We were also giving the JG guys a cool experience we could share videos of later. Anybody can point the stick down to their 109, make a pass, and mash the F5 key on the stats page, but not everyone can gather a formation, navigate/bombardier, fire from the tail, and lead to win the map using original tactics (Hats off to DRock & RebelSquirl). The drama on Coms was unbearably funny, as some of you might remember. ha

    ~S~

  11. #8
    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,350
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    138.5 KB

    Re: Bomber cover

    I will chip into this discussion from an escorts perspective.

    To be blunt sitting on top of the bombers is useless, if a bunch of diving hurricanes can blast through JG4 and hammer the bombers there's no way your going to stop the much faster diving and better armed 109/110's.

    You have to intercept the attackers before they get up to the bombers, that means a fighter sweep in front to tie up/drive down as many as you can and high flying escorts who can drop on the guys who come in individually, either way it needs coordination and discipline to achieve, and that's a lot harder in a game than in reality as we have no rank or discipline structure, if your sitting with the bombers all your going to do is have a ringside seat as the attack unfolds around you, your then relegated to chasing them off but the damage is often already done.

    Both the RAF with the circus attacks and the Luftwaffe during the BoB tried close support with huge numbers of fighters but still lost large numbers of bombers and crew, there's a lesson there.

    With radar support a bomber group is almost certain to be intercepted, so the answer has to be a sneak attack preceded by a fighter sweep to get the defenders brawling just before the bombers get there, and decoy tactics would also be necessary, either way this game is transitioning into a battle of wits over brawn, the cleverest and most organised side will prevail.

  12. Likes BOO liked this post
  13. #9
    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,195
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    164.95 MB

    Re: Bomber cover

    Some good points, Gromit, but this isn't based on real life. Although, I agree we can learn from RL.

    In this sim, guys will fly right past you to get to those bombers, then many will park themselves on a bomber's tail until he is kaput. They don't care if they have someone on their 6, they still go after the prize.

    Without the fear of death, or complete losses, this sim is far from RL.

    I agree with your long range escorts idea, but not at the cost of close air support. I can't stress their usefulness enough, from the perspective of someone who flies bombers, escort, and interceptor.

    Your close air support must be able to fire upon the enemy before he fires on your bombers.


    Gromit, if you flew a Spitfire, you wouldn't complain so much.; )lol

  14. #10
    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,350
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    3
    Total Downloaded
    138.5 KB

    Re: Bomber cover

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    Gromit, if you flew a Spitfire, you wouldn't complain so much.; )lol
    Steady on old chap!

  15. Likes DRock liked this post
  16. #11
    Veteran Combat pilot klu.peete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    311
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Bomber cover

    We in acg fly a lot of escort missions on Sundays. We fly the 109 and mostly successfully. We stay high above the bombers making zig zag patrons. There are 3 groups.. 1 in front 1 above and 1. Behind the bombers so every section is covered. Mostly the IA bombers geth with almost no harm.done home. You must know we are in.karge numbers there mostly 2 squadrons of 109 or 110's and about 15 bombers. RAF is mostly in greater numbers but that is actually ww2 corect.

    If the Bombers are going home and half channel we we.may do a free hunt on the Tommys.. What is nice but also geth more of us down.. Not me ofcource!

  17. #12
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Philadelphia Pa
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    353.11 MB

    Re: Bomber cover

    As a bomber I have found escorts help me they don't always save me but they can . If a game is close and they buy me just a little time I can reach a target even if I am damaged and some times that will roll the map . A bomber might only get 3 or 4 trips to target and each one is valuable, if you are trying to hit distant targets that might take 2 or even three loads to eliminate a particular target in a game
    . Some times there might only be 2 bombers in a game and you need to be successful on each run to roll a map or the other side will get their targets before you . D rock and the JG's are good escorts what ever they are doing it works, because they have saved me a few times for sure , and I cant even watch them at work to much because I am busy getting lined up set etc . Some time its good if Lots of fighters are all fighting where I am NOT too then I know I will not attract attention on long flanking trip. Rolling the maps takes a few bombers generally,
    Sometimes the reds mount very effective attacks on an airfield that can keep all the bombers pinned down and you cant do much I don't think the blues use there fighters as effectively for that type of job. If we are picking up the Agent its great to have a bunch of escorts to get home safely for that too . They can make a difference there too
    TGIF and his 2 cents

  18. #13
    Manual Creation Group ATAG_Ezzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,301
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    115.2 KB

    Re: Bomber cover

    When i first started in the 110 i tried flying escort but i was useless as tits on a bull regardless of whether i flew close escort or slighly loose but nearby. The 110's acceleration is poor so flying slower while escorting is bad news. I pretty much relearned what the Luft experienced in the BOB trying to use the 110 as close escort.

    So a better approach in the 110 is to fly out ahead of the bombers looking for enemy a/c climbing to intercept like Gromit et al have said. Once they see the bombers many of them get fixated and this is when they are vulnerable to death from above as they are too busy working out the intercept and not checking 6 etc.

    i guess in modern speak this would be OCA or a variation of that. The 110 is well suited to this role if flown to its strengths acknowleging the advantage it gets on ATAG by being invisible to tab 7-1.

    Ezzie

  19. Likes DRock liked this post
  20. #14
    Combat pilot Dai-San's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    137
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    495 Bytes

    Re: Bomber cover

    What we have here is the age old discussion that EVERY tactical game (be it FS, FPS, Racing) has, which is RL tactics versus in-game limitations.

    The only thing that can effectively be carried over from RL is discipline, organisation and communication.

    Due to in-game limitations and and recent experience from the bomber events I would say the only effective tactic for the bombers would be to split into smaller groups with a couple of escorts per group. This would limit the amount of firepower the enemy can bring to bear on each group which in turn means that the escorts have more of a chance of deflecting or counteracting sustained attacks. Also you have the added advantage of of the enemy having to find each particular group first.

    The down side of this is that from practical point of view you would need a greater number of Bomber Group Leaders who knew how to Navigate effectively (due to the multiple routes to a single objective) and the fact that (to be frank) the most enjoyable thing for the bomber pilots in these events is the fact of flying in large formations.

    From my point of view the whole point of these events isn't the outcome, or effectiveness of the bombing itself, but the whole shits and giggles of trying to get a load of idiots flying close together in huge lumps of fragile wood and metal.

    Tactics be damned, lets have fun!

  21. Likes PreyStalker, DRock, 69th_Zeb, DerDa liked this post
  22. #15
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    5 mins from the Red Arrows, 1 min from a good pub.
    Posts
    2,667
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5
    Total Downloaded
    1.01 GB

    Re: Bomber cover

    It all goes back to the same thing - If the defenders come in from above or the front with speed, the bombers suffer. On the first BOOmer raid we had 9/52 and JG4 (no slouches at this sort of tuff) as close escort - we got decimated cos the reds came in like missiles from 10000ft above us. Then they took losses but it was too late. Gromit lead the same sort of raid against JG4. Again with devastating effects (although with fewer defenders, a few got through)

    Had we been higher and the defenders climbing still, that perhaps would have been a different matter but we where picketed from the get go. .

    High is the only scenario I see close escort working - if its got a clue and its co-ordinated. This was my point about there only being a few pilots who can do this well. Even then we have a space race that can develop and this favours the reds at present I think. So perhaps its a one sided tactic at present.

    ACG rules don't really apply to ATAG - there is much greater emphasis on staying alive in ACG. Less kill and be killed and be damned. There is much more squad organisation too. But the point is valid - defence needs co-ordination and a degree of mutual understanding/experience.

    Radar also plays it role - Blue radar should (I think does) have less range than Freya. Neither I think can pick up single aircraft less than a grid square apart. Regardless of side though, close defence here is tricky. The enemy know your height and heading. Its here when a well positioned picket would be the only true guard. But here again a well placed defence requires the bombers to be flexible. If you go straight down the middle where is the best place to put them, front, left, right? So you don't go down the middle to limit defender options.

    There is also the unescorted fly low sckool. That's a good tactic for one of two but not always for a group flying A-B - look at Karayas video for the Blenni strikes back second raid. Low flying blenheims spotted by chance going A-B. In group flying this tactic still needs guile. And good navigation.

    Coming back to the events, we already have it stacked against us in terms of us not being able to plan too much in advance. I like this though. Wouldn't change it. The idea was always to get people together who may not normally fly in groups. Its a buzz. So. at least for the BOOmer events, there will be no little groups. Equally, there is likely be a finite number of times I can attract participation if all that happens is we get shot out of the sky within 30 mins of take off. Yes its about fun but its no fun being bait and bait alone.

    So the experienced fighters out there are really needed. I cant make anyone take part or follow a plan but there a players on both sides to whom people look up too and want to fly with. One man airforces who can take a couple of less experienced/capable players (like me) and make something of them. This is more so on the Red side but Blue also has a good share of great non squad pilots who could do this.

    Anyhow - lost my thread now so ill shut up.

    .......110s, 2 weeks. be there!!

    BOO
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

  23. #16
    Team Fusion
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    711
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    497.6 KB

    Re: Bomber cover

    Exacto. The tactics for winning on Axis-Allies on a day-to-day basis are very different. We had many guys up there capable of leading several formation(s), but that would have defeated the whole purpose of the event.

  24. #17
    Novice Pilot
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    34
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    3.8 KB

    Re: Bomber cover

    interesting thread, maybe the game mechanics are not that far from life, i remember reading where german 109 pilots were forced to fly low to escort bombers at low alt, german losses were heavy and the fighter pilots complained it was not the way a 109 should be flown..

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •