Beta 4.49 dogfighting

[Ecosta]

Landscape looks terrific but this new "War Thunder" fire effect...

I gree!

back to effect fire before...
It looks like a comet-propelled airplane.
See several videos real gunsight ... it's very unreal

Ecosta

[Salmo]

HALLELUJA, But wait? Did the 8mm Machinegunsound change? I remember it to be a bit sharper.

Edit: And why are the canons so silent??

Still bug fixing some unexpected issues.

[Hyperus]

I gree!

back to effect fire before...
It looks like a comet-propelled airplane.
See several videos real gunsight ... it's very unreal

Ecosta

I prefer this new fire, taking gunsights for fire effects wouldnt work as they would be terribly overlighted by the fire.

[69th_Zeb]

In defense of TF, I now don my tin hat gentlemen....

In a King Air 200 with an engine fire, you have 2 minutes to land before your wing dynamically disassembles itself, depending on how you write your emergency procedures. That's also not considering a 20mm canon shell through the forward spar.

Fuel isn't the only thing that catches fire. I've burned tested butyrate dope on fabric and it's like moth wings in a fire (thinking of the hurricane here or the 109's rudder). My coworker worked in a rag shop where his boss was sanding a wing, and within seconds, static electricity made everything go poof -leaving only the frame.

And yeh, they didn't use steel on those tanks. Even if they did, you could easily punch through them with a screwdriver...or the thing never would of made it to theatre with that kind of weight.

By the way, I love seeing the 109's rudder burn with incendiaries....just gives me that warm feeling in the gut you guys were really thinking through stuff. There's always funky stuff, like the delay between the separation of the wing and the physics engine kicking in a second late to tell the plane to rotate (might be my laggy PC).

Anyways, it's all good. We can all definitely say there's some serious continuous improvement.

[1lokos]

Some things in CloD don't need be changed, just rescue the originals and tweak:

https://youtu.be/1LMftuei6Fw?t=25
Compare:
https://youtu.be/msb8OdvBBjU?t=41

Same for fuel/water leaks, originally they resemble much what is seem there:

https://youtu.be/msb8OdvBBjU?t=93

[Hyperus]

In defense of TF, I now don my tin hat gentlemen....

In a King Air 200 with an engine fire, you have 2 minutes to land before your wing dynamically disassembles itself, depending on how you write your emergency procedures. That's also not considering a 20mm canon shell through the forward spar.

Fuel isn't the only thing that catches fire. I've burned tested butyrate dope on fabric and it's like moth wings in a fire (thinking of the hurricane here or the 109's rudder). My coworker worked in a rag shop where his boss was sanding a wing, and within seconds, static electricity made everything go poof -leaving only the frame.

And yeh, they didn't use steel on those tanks. Even if they did, you could easily punch through them with a screwdriver...or the thing never would of made it to theatre with that kind of weight.

By the way, I love seeing the 109's rudder burn with incendiaries....just gives me that warm feeling in the gut you guys were really thinking through stuff. There's always funky stuff, like the delay between the separation of the wing and the physics engine kicking in a second late to tell the plane to rotate (might be my laggy PC).

Anyways, it's all good. We can all definitely say there's some serious continuous improvement.

Interesting, my only question would be if fabric even triggers the incendiaries :/

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

A couple comments for those Spit drivers who are running around panicking or 109 drivers who generally like to moan about their badly abused life as a Blue side pilot...

1) Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version.

2) The 109's in Beta 1 also do not have the rear fuselage 10mm laminated aluminum armour plate which protects its fuel tank. This will also be in the final version.

3) Both of these laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank.

4) The 10mm 109 plate was obviously more effective than the 3mm Hurri/Spit plates... but the 109 plate also served to protect the pilot... as there was no rear seat steel armour in the 109's as there was in the Spits/Hurris.

5) We are hoping to add the headrest armour for the 109E-4/E-4N, but cannot guarantee this... we will only offer it if it can be an option... as we know some players will not want it if their rear view will be badly affected.

Thanks

[vranac]

Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

[Gromit]

Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

Vranac this is a game, the damage model treats all structures like a biscuit, if you damage it enough it snaps off, the Tiger moth is a good example, the actual aircraft is a spaceframe of tubes covered in doped fabric, in game you can shoot the wings off like a piece of plasterboard, whereas in reality you may damage enough tubes and the wing would fold up like an old rotary washing line!

The Hurricane wing has a massive twin tubular spar with fillet plates between as stiffeners at the fuselage and multiple tubes providing the structure of the outer wing, so the cannon shell would have to penetrate the wing skin, pass through the structural frame and then explode on the spar or cut enough tubes to cause structural failure, this is extremely unlikely as early fuses detonated on impact so the only shells that could make it that far would be ap ones, and they are not going to fail a spar structure like a Hurricane uses without multiple hits on tubes!

So how are you going to solve the problem? it's impractical to model multiple tubes and then have to create an algorithm to calculate what load would then fail the wing, so we have to accept the damage model will be a compromise simulating this damage, basically if you have suffered enough hits to cause the wing to fail in game, then we can realistically surmise the aircraft would be un flyable in real life, so whilst I agree with you that wing failures should be extremely rare, it's a game, not reality and there has to be compromise.

[ATAG_EvangelusE]

Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

Vranac is a very experienced and respected member of the on- line community. If he has questions or concerns based on what is released during the BETA testing then I see absolutely no reason why they should not be expressed.

[Mysticpuma]

Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Important to note though that in Karaya's video as Mike states previously, there was no armour protection:

"Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version. These laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank"

So please note as pointed out in the video....that is Beta footage.

Cheers, MP

[BOO]

Vranac is a very experienced and respected member of the on- line community. If he has questions or concerns based on what is released during the BETA testing then I see absolutely no reason why they should not be expressed.

I'm sure he is. And I wholly support his right. As I do the right of other people to respond to them. Banding about accusations of "balancing" and calling things "ridiculous" though isn't something that is very helpful nor can it be said with the certainty it was after watching a single piece of Beta footage.

Buzz did answer his question, at least about the fuel tank, from what I can see.

As for the wings falling of, as Gromit said, its a game and there probably has to be some compromise with how the game is coded and what can be done with it at this stage given a) its complexity and b) the list of a million other things the community wants changing/altering/including/removing.

Finally, I see a lot of gnashing of teeth and sucking of gums about the fires. Ultimately whether I'm on fire or a holey as the pope with dead engine, the result of getting on the wrong end of Karaya is the same. The aircraft has been hit hard, the pixel pilot is probably dead or dying and neither are likely go be going much further whether they are on fire or not.

[buster_dee]

I remember the 1st time I saw Rise of Flight's damage modeling. It seemed like "ragdoll" for objects, suitable for wood-fabric construction, but a little much. I'm very much an eye-candy guy, but even I wondered how much resources that feature burned.

[DerDa]

Well from my point of view there is a real, very big, annoying bug:
I just can't shoot like Karaya and I just can't fly like him!

That makes it really hard to set any plane on fire (except mine ...)

[69th_Zeb]

My tin hat...before the cup of coffee. haha

As for spars folding up, it'd be interesting to see what some of the high scoring German aces in the eastern front wrote about. Any shot to a spar cap/beam in a high g-turn would be suspect, as spar failures happen in real life (fatigue is different, but whatever) without a single shot being fired. Warbird wing loading is also quite high with the thinnest wings imaginable...save the hurricane's fat wing. Steel tubes (Gromit, are the spars 4130?) versus 20mm from slightly above or below, I have reason to doubt in the hurricane anyway. The beaufighter book I have chronicles a lot about large portions of aircraft falling off of large 88s/Heinkels from canon fire. I find in-game that wing separation is quite rare anyways, unless you're watching Karaya's highly edited, sniper canon epics or you get snargled. I'd just leave it as-is. It's rare enough for me to see that I'm content.

A full fuel tank doesn't explode like an empty one does (or doesn't at all). Honestly they probably didn't explode, rather the leak would make it a steady fire after a loud woof. Like others said, no reason to make it overcomplicated. The fumes in the cockpits back then were probably enough to make any incendiary explode and the cockpits I've seen pictures of are full of active fuel leaks. One Mustang racer I know doesn't fly warbirds much anymore for the reason that warbirds are typically fire-prone without a shot being fired. "Probably" is more than good enough for me.

If people find it bothersome, they should surmise a wacky root cause..... like a fuel leak in the wing caused by the same knucklehead mechanic/engineer that worked on the squadron's planes which caused a stoichiometric of 14.7 in the wing bay around the ammunition. etc etc. Honestly in the heat of action, I'm not calculating stoichiometric or unfairness so much as trying to bail out and surviving. There's some pretty unfair crap in the real world that people would love to explain away with the use of a bullet.

Even though I wouldn't like it as a Blenheim fan, it would be neat to see the ordnance modelled for additional explosiveness!

9mm aluminum plate is hardly much. The wiiild rednecks at work are always testing ballistics with plates of different thicknesses, I'll have to pick their brain. I would have reason to think a smaller, lower-grained 7.62 might go through quite a ways (perpendicular at close range). Maybe that's something the Germans tested using the 303 to optimize the installation. BTW there's at least one person here who was shot at A LOT while flying...I have never heard him complain about the damage boxes..rather, he thinks this sim is the bee's knees.

Buzz/Gromit, I love the level of detail you guys are aware of. There always needs to be compromises and I think "most of us" are quite content with leaving it to you guys for under the IL2 hood stuff. If something bugs me, I can put on my tin hat and come up with an elaborate explanation (we do it anyway on ATAG Axis/Allies). I like being able to talk about it too though. It's all interesting to me, even if it rubs a little.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Interesting, my only question would be if fabric even triggers the incendiaries :/

That's a really interesting question.

I have no idea how stiff dopped fabric was. Probably a lot stonger than papier-mache(with an accent on the e)

The stuff its covering would obviously, the wooden strutts and whatnot .... my guess is that dopped fabric probably would as well... but... its a guess, I actually have no idea !

[vranac]

Important to note though that in Karaya's video as Mike states previously, there was no armour protection:

Cheers, MP

The same thing I did just a couple days ago from a different angle, from above, not recorded unfortunately.
I expected a reply from someone that is versed in DM coding. While I'm not a coding expert, I have some experience with it and I think I have some basic knowledge how DM is working.




SM edits: Corrected an earlier mistake. The addition of missing oil and water systems have been getting confused with the corrections of the fuel system. The spitfire fuel tank collision box is there, the protection was not, but has now been added as mentioned before.

[ATAG_Highseas]

If something bugs me, I can put on my tin hat and come up with an elaborate explanation (we do it anyway on ATAG Axis/Allies). I like being able to talk about it too though. It's all interesting to me, even if it rubs a little.

Totally agree !

I think its important to appreciate the MASSIVE improvements already made, and currently being finalised rather than expect a game (or any sim) to fully replicate reality.

That's just wishfull thinking.

Best we can hope for is to get as close possible within the limitations that exist

1: in the capabilities of the available game engine
2: in the technology available at any given time that a reasonable number of people can actually afford

I think we are damn close already.....

I remain hugely impressed, and similarly greatful.

I also (on the most part) really like the discussion, some interesting questions raised here no doubt.

[69th_Zeb]

@Highseas Anything will go through fabric, even the pilot's keys inside their pocket, when they try to crawl into the cockpit of a stearman (true story ha). Kids love to squeeze the wingtips and damage them. If the canon hit a tube inside the surface covered in fabric, then you'd be screwed.

@Varanac, I love the maneuver between the trees. Nice.

If you really want to get nerdy about aircraft tube structures.......
ifyouwanttogetnerdy.jpg

[ATAG_Highseas]

@Highseas Anything will go through fabric, even the pilot's keys inside their pocket, when they try to crawl into the cockpit of a stearman (true story ha).

I wasnt under the impression that dopped fabric could stop a bullet ! That would sure save the police a lot of money on bullet proof vests if it could though !

It was more about whether there is enough of a "clunk" against the stiffened dopped fabric to cause an incendry round to ignite, which was the question raised.

I have no idea.



EDIT: (or whether if it did it could ignite anything on its jouney to the other skin of fabric at exit.)

[69th_Zeb]

It's recorded in the hyer mythology of ww2 epics that canons did indeed go through fabric, but it's hard to say without testing it!

I guess tales abound on the internet.

[ATAG_Highseas]

It's recorded in the hyer mythology of ww2 epics that canons did indeed go through fabric, but it's hard to say without testing it!

I guess tales abound on the internet.

Well that does go some way to explaining why they had to invent Kevlar I guess.

I'd better go edit wikipedia

[Hyperus]

We would need someone owning a .303 Rifle, a Fabric expert that knows how the stuff was stiffened back in the day and a Museum bein so friendly to hand over the incendiaries XD

[ATAG_Highseas]

We would need someone owning a .303 Rifle, a Fabric expert that knows how the stuff was stiffened back in the day and a Museum bein so friendly to hand over the incendiaries XD

Too late !

I edited wikipedia and now incendry rounds as well as other projectiles can go through fabric again.

[69th_Zeb]

Fabric planes are great. I worked on one that was shot at by a dumb redneck with a .200-ish round. Missed the fuel tank by six inches. Easy ring patch repair (bottom and top of wing haha).

I was doing an Annual/CofA on a Huey and found bird shot (#3) in the driveshaft compartment (you have to climb on the roof to get to it). I confirmed with one of my local firearms experts that it was legit. Either my boss was doing a positive G roll over a chem-trail-phobic redneck's house or the shot bounced off the main rotor and fell into the driveshaft area. Likely the latter.




Edit* Highseas I found your entry. haha
"I could smell powder smoke, hot and strong, but it didn't make me feel tough this time. It was from the cannon shells and incendiary bullets that had hit my machine...Bullets were going between my legs, and I remember seeing a bright flash of an incendiary bullet going past my leg into the gas tank...Then a little red tongue licked out inquiringly from under the gas tank in front of my feet and became a hot little bonfire in one corner of the cockpit."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_ammunition

[69th_Zeb]

Hyperus, the only thing I don't have access to is the incendiary rounds, which aren't legal here to fire without a permit. I've been itching to fabricate a 109 rudder shot up by a real .303 from scratch (similar to the one displayed at that RAF pub). Maybe I can make several to fund the rabbit trail. haha

I'd have to build it from sheetmetal frames, cotton fabric and nitrate dope, which would be equal to allied stuff...not sure about what the Germans used.
http://www.plans.aero/index.php?main...roducts_id=297

[rel4y]

No. Fuel tanks were and remain aluminum.

Thanks for setting the joke straight. Maybe I should have written Stalinium or Kruppsteel.

"Karaya's video was created with the Beta 1 version.... in which later model Spits and Hurri Rotols do not have the curved, over the tank 3mm laminated aluminum 'armour' plates which will be in the final version. These laminated aluminum plates were not particularly effective in protecting against armour piercing rounds, but what they were effective against were incendiary rounds... the incendiary would explode on contact with the plate instead of inside the tank"

Only DeWilde will trigger on impact of a 3mm Al plate and give a nice bright flash. PmK and Buckingham incendiary will penetrate, given angle and distance allow for it. Armour penetration for PmK incendiary ammo is 6,5 mm (90°), 5 mm (60°) at 100m for a hardened steel plate (150 kg/mm^2).

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Thanks Buzzsaw but I see that you didn't answer any of my questions

What is actually wrong with a Spitfire fuel tank?

Is TFS looking how to improve DM regarding weak Hurricane and Me109 wings? The RAF aeroplanes will have cannons in TF 5.0. The 109 wings would be falling like autumn leaves.

There is nothing wrong with the Spit fuel tank.

The problem was an error created by the original developers... they had mistakenly designated the fuel tank as a 'hidden' object.... and hidden objects in CoD cannot take damage.

Re. the 109 and Hurricane wings... both have been strengthened.

But as mentioned, all these aircraft types have G Limits... add a few cannon shells to G effects and you have a wing coming off.

Finally, here is the bottom line:

Aircraft from the 1940's are more lightly built than most cars... think about what happens when you aim an M-60 Machinegun armed with AP and Incendiary 7.62mm at a car and open fire.

WWII aircraft were not designed to survive sustained hits from 20mm weapons. So called 'Armour' only existed to mitigate damage to fuel tanks and human occupants... the majority of the aircraft frame had no protection.

[Catseye]

To me, one of the most interesting things was seeing the colors grey out when he was pulling a lot of Gs.

Yes, only addition would be the beginning of myopia. The fuzzing out of the outer edges and moving inwards should more G's be applied. All in all showing great promise.

[69th_Zeb]

This image is pretty interesting. Looks like a canon round hitting the elevator spar after it had cleanly gone through the rudder. You can see shrapnel on the rudder/vertical stab from the explosion.



directhitcanon.jpg