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Thread: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    The trim wheel is 4 notches off center and is reversed, oil rad reversed

    Skud
    Why does the 109 have to run with negative trim? Is the CG off? Here is a screenshot of level flying , low alt, 400 kph, 50% fuel, trimmed for level flight. Look at the position of the elevator.
    shot_20171217_122533.png
    Last edited by ATAG_SKUD; Dec-17-2017 at 01:22.
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    I know oil rad being reversed is now historical, as it wasn't in 4.3 - couldn't comment on the trim wheel.


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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwiflieger View Post
    I know oil rad being reversed is now historical, as it wasn't in 4.3 - couldn't comment on the trim wheel.
    I reckoned that might be the case
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Skud is right,

    The wheels and indicator in the cockpit is reversed.

    I always understood it as being positive numbers (1-3) for nose heavy and negative (-1 -6) for tail heavy. Nose heavy clockwise, tail heavy ccw.

    This allows both trim and flap wheels to be turned at the same time in the same direction when landing, countering the nose heaving tenancy. This is correct in the game but the indicator doesn't reflect this. IN effect it needs an extra internal cog adding.

    My understanding of the 109 (only from flying other sims and reading second hand notes) is that it does require nose heavy trim at higher speeds so I would think that this is correct.
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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    seems like that would induce a lot of drag.

    Skud
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Skud is right,

    The wheels and indicator in the cockpit is reversed.

    I always understood it as being positive numbers (1-3) for nose heavy and negative (-1 -6) for tail heavy. Nose heavy clockwise, tail heavy ccw.

    This allows both trim and flap wheels to be turned at the same time in the same direction when landing, countering the nose heaving tenancy. This is correct in the game but the indicator doesn't reflect this. IN effect it needs an extra internal cog adding.

    My understanding of the 109 (only from flying other sims and reading second hand notes) is that it does require nose heavy trim at higher speeds so I would think that this is correct.
    I just got the 109K-4 in DCS and it is much more annoying to fly than the 109 in COD requiring 3" of forward displacement on my BRD-DS to cruise level with nose down pitch trim maxed out. If you let the stick center naturally the 109 pulls into a steep climb-at any speed.

    Also, I just read this, an excerpt from an interview with Mark Hannah on his impressions of flying the 109.

    "Above 550km/h, one peculiarity is a slight nose-down trim change as you accelerate. This means that when you run in for an airshow above 500km/h, the airplane has a slight tucking sensation-a sort of desire to get down to ground level. This is easily held on the stick, or it can be trimmed out, but it is slightly surprising initially."
    Copyright Air Age Publishing, Dec 1999


    In my tests in an E4N with 50% fuel it still need 4.5 degrees of negative pitch to fly level at 550 KPH.

    So without any trade secrets being divulged, I'd like to ask how the trim response is arrived at in CoD. Is it the outcome of entering physical measurements, weight C/G etc. taken from the actual plane and let the behavior fall out from the applied physics or is it guessed at and plugged in?
    Please don't take these observations as criticism, IMHO CoD has the most faithfully reproduced FM of any flight sim.
    Thanks

    Skud
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    "Books" was write in forums about Bf 109 center trim position, every one with different conclusions/theory.

    But, for simplify consider: domestic joysticks has 50+50% travel course, and springs that force re-center in 0%.

    Real Bf 109 stick don't has the same 50+50% travel, neither springs forcing for center.

    And games dev's need add to this "equation" the gamey 'air start' trim needs.

  8. #8
    varrattu
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Wheels and indicator in the BF109E cockpit should work like this:





    ~V~

    Edit 07.01.2018
    Please vote: bugtracker issue #1004

    Edit 05.02.2018
    Unfortunately I chose the wrong wording: elevator. All that the BF109 elevators had was a piece of metal that was bent up or down before the pilot took off. The design of the BF109 incorporates a trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS) that features a fully moving horizontal tail surface. Long story short: the trimmable horizontal stabilizer is manually controlled by a wheel and not the elevators.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by varrattu; Feb-05-2018 at 12:00.

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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    "Books" was write in forums about Bf 109 center trim position, every one with different conclusions/theory.

    But, for simplify consider: domestic joysticks has 50+50% travel course, and springs that force re-center in 0%.

    Real Bf 109 stick don't has the same 50+50% travel, neither springs forcing for center.

    And games dev's need add to this "equation" the gamey 'air start' trim needs.
    Hi 1Lokos,
    All real aircraft have a stick or yoke center position that is aligned with level flight by the use of trim when things like balance are influenced by loads, they just don't operate with springs but with air pressure against the control surface (excluding fly-by-wire). In a real aircraft if you let go of the control and it continues to maintain current altitude it is trimmed for level flight. In a real aircraft if you let go of a stick and it goes into a steep climb then you are not trimmed for level flight. In DCS you cannot trim enough to fly level without intervention and constant forward pressure. Same as in a real aircraft that is not trimmed properly. I find it to be unbelievable that any series production aircraft would need to be flown this way with no chance of being trimmed for level flight under any trim wheel settings, speed or loads. I think the guys at DCS are being bone-headed about it. I am hopeful our devs won't take any cues from them on this characteristic.

    Skud
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    What I am referring is this, see in the Ju 87 control column drawing this 16 and 22 degrees for nose up and nose down, how match this with domestic sticks and their equals movement for each side?



    This write of An Petrovich (Ex-DCS, RoF and Bo'X FM engineer) talk about:

    https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic...tch-sensitive/
    Require login for see images. E.g.



    And why in RoF, Bo'X was used that "gamey" solution for "wrong joystick position", the "AI autopilot for level flight".
    Last edited by 1lokos; Jan-07-2018 at 00:38.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post

    And why in RoF, Bo'X was used that "gamey" solution for "wrong joystick position", the "AI autopilot for level flight".
    OK I see where you are coming from.
    So if I remove the springs from my joystick I will find that natural center point in the stick position and not have to fly with constant forward pressure. But since 99.9999% of the joysticks we have to fly with have springs and centered travel out of necessity, isn't this a little too much realism? Wouldn't it be more useful to have the pitch up on the y axis calibrated on a quasi-exponential curve therefore keeping the throw historical?

    Skud
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    So if I remove the springs from my joystick I will find that natural center point in the stick position and not have to fly with constant forward pressure.
    But fly using an joystick without springs is not really practical.

    Theoretically VKB Gunfighter with proper adjust of "Dry Clutch" is able to keep any position of grip (specially if not used that heavy Warthog grip), giving you a "dynamic" center position. A Force Feedback joystick too will give a correct center position.

    That (RiP) Tarmac Aces base was made for allow grip keep any position as "center", supposed the early idea came from Oleg Maddox.

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    Supporting Member Rapier07's Avatar
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Great conversation. I have been flying 109s in sims for a decade and always had to adjust nose heavy trim. 109s are my primary or goto plane. I just thought that how it worked outside of takeoffs and landings. Now I know the technical side. Really enjoyed reading this. So interesting to me

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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    I'm using the Warthog's rotary switch (big grey one far-right on the panel) for elevator trim, works beautifully in flight but does nothing once on the ground.

  16. #15
    varrattu
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    Re: v 4.5 -109 trim and rads with axis config

    Quote Originally Posted by JG3~Siggi View Post
    I'm using the Warthog's rotary switch (big grey one far-right on the panel) for elevator trim, works beautifully in flight but does nothing once on the ground.
    Hold the stick in its full aft position at all times when taxiing. Ensure that the BF109 tail trimming wheel is in fully tail heavy position. While taxiing you will have a recognizable downward force on the tail. To compare different downward forces, ensure that the tail trimming wheel is in a neutral position. Don't forget to hold the stick in its full aft position.

    ~V~

    Just a little beside: Aircraft designers try to harmonize the control forces around the three axes. The standard control force rations are 1:2:4. The roll axis force is 1. The pitch forces are 2 or twice the roll axis required force. Rudder forces are 4 or twice the pitch forces required.

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