For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

[BOO]

Interesting post by TheOden about how he balanced the field at least in the stock campaign.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...45-snipers-ai/

[SamJoDo]

Just my two cents, but I love the fact that the bombers now have some decent gunners. Seems to make attacking them more dangerous and I would have to think that's how the pilots felt in real life.

[DerDa]

I have to disagree.
While the AI gunners in player controlled planes were pretty useless, the gunners in AI bombers in the previous version were already too efficient in my opinion. You could repeatedly attack DO 17s with some success and get away with it. He 111s got you at least on the second try, BR 20s already on the first, while both planes took loads of 303s without showing any effect.

Now it seems almost impossible to successfully attac any bomber formation with a single engine fighter. As soon as you get closer than 500 m prepare for a bullet right between your eyes, no matter from which angle you attac.
The only way to attac bombers now is with the Beaufighter, creep up from low six shoot at long distance and pull out very, very quick.

[ATAG_Highseas]

I have to disagree.
While the AI gunners in player controlled planes were pretty useless, the gunners in AI bombers in the previous version were already too efficient in my opinion. You could repeatedly attack DO 17s with some success and get away with it. He 111s got you at least on the second try, BR 20s already on the first, while both planes took loads of 303s without showing any effect.

Now it seems almost impossible to successfully attac any bomber formation with a single engine fighter. As soon as you get closer than 500 m prepare for a bullet right between your eyes, no matter from which angle you attac.
The only way to attac bombers now is with the Beaufighter, creep up from low six shoot at long distance and pull out very, very quick.

it is tricky for sure.. but DO-17's before were... "oh look 5 dorniers... oh look 5 falling dorniers"

I agree that now its really hard to take one down and still be able to fly after my first pass.... possibly a bit too hard...

but I still think its way better than it was before. That was just silly.




I gott awork on my tactics !

[BOO]

Ill see your disagreement and raise you one sideways glance

Upping the gunner effectiveness is a boon for the stuff Drock and myself organise online. Offline I will concede that its difficult as it stands but not impossible. The other aspect is realism/immersion. Going out and duffing up 5 Do17s in formation with SP fixed loadouts was just stupid. Going out and hammering 9 at time in MP was even more so. In SOW3 I shot down sommat like 200 (AI, dumb defenders and daytime low numbers.....yeah I know how to game the stats ) which is ridiculous.

I ran the stock channel bomber intercept earlier and I don't know what those dudes are set at. The task I set myself was to take at least one 111 down and get back. I managed 2 eventually after repeated head on high speed passes. Took a long time but I was totally engrossed. How these would have faired in 4.312 I don't know but I do know that I'm spending more time in SP now as a result.

At the end of the day I wouldn't expect a single hurri to stand much of chance sitting on the tail of a formation of bombers and attacking in league does seem to yield better results even if you AI mates don't listen to you much. Same in MP - attack in numbers, use a baitman and reap the rewards. Fly alone, die alone.

I'm also reading some of the "I attacked in a 650kmh dive" complaints around the place and wondering if they know that speed when going from A-B (B being the point in a straight line from A where the screen goes black) is not much good if the path is predicable. And for AI it still has to be to a large extent. I sure they do know, it just dosent seem to register that the days of the milk run are over and straight lines mean black screens.

Our differences make the world go around.

S!

BOO

[DerDa]

Well, then let's agree to disagree
I'm not complaining or asking for changes, but I sure as hell will stay away from AI-bombers while in a Spit or a Hurri.


I dare to predict that maps will get rolled more often no and I hope that the mission builders will step in to create some nice new targets for the Beau (OMG, this thing is such a beauty! and the engine sounds!!!)
Did anyone manage to sink a ship with it? We tried this morning, but no luck.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Well, then let's agree to disagree
I'm not complaining or asking for changes, but I sure as hell will stay away from AI-bombers while in a Spit or a Hurri.


I dare to predict that maps will get rolled more often no and I hope that the mission builders will step in to create some nice new targets for the Beau (OMG, this thing is such a beauty! and the engine sounds!!!)
Did anyone manage to sink a ship with it? We tried this morning, but no luck.

It can be done !... but its not easy....

or at least it could be done in the Betas.... lucky shots on mines or something like that.

its a superb plane eh?...

and yeah... that sound !!!!!

WOW!!

[ATAG_Colander]

A point to notice is that since they used to be blind, mission builders used to set them at expert. Now they can be toned down to average or lower if needed.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Now they can be toned down to average or lower if needed.

How about crummy ?

Like me

[SD_MBen]

Fly my mission's!
The bomber's are usually out of ammo and heading home!


SD_MBen.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

In TF 4.312 AI gunnery was bugged, it was not functioning properly.

Mission builders have the opportunity to set the AI bombers at whatever skill them they want.

We believe this is a better solution than a bugged game.

Historically bomber formations were not easy targets, especially for a single attacker.

[YoYo]

Is it possible (for 4.5 Blitz) to back to level of gunners of bombers from 4.312 (in quick fix ect.).

We lose a LOT of fun from Single player campaigns.....it spoils completely the fun of chasing after the bombers.

I'm after the 10th mission (Channel Battles, Desastersoft) and everything looks OK (like it was) except Superb AI gunners of bombers from 4.5: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...45-snipers-ai/
This is cause that some "easy" (for example with two Bleinheim) missions are impossible to finish with success or one pass and our plane recives holes on radiator. It spoils a bit of fun. Maybe gunners from 4.312 wasn't perfect but was mutch better with accuracy (50/50%) than now (100%).

So we lose a lot of fun to playing Single Player campaigns.... (example, loses, whole my "schwarm" was killed and my plane was shot down)

Maybe its a good idea to create mod like external program to set the skill of gunners from bombers?
Its very hard to be in one piece now, and 99% of gunner of bomber attacks ends a serious problem with our plane = no possibility to finish a mission. Pity...

Our wingmans arent perfect (like it was), they fly like flies without any sophisticated tactics and shot near all ammo in one burst so why we recived now superb snipers AI of bombers with near 100% chances to hit us?



Example from Quick Mission (default) - "015 - Free Hunt" (Wellington as defiant).

Please remeber that for example for Desastersoft campaigns death in the mission = death of pilot and end of campaign so I prefer now dont touch any bomber

Levels of AI are here: SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Blitz\Desastersoft\CB_2\subs\RAF .

[Vlerkies]

Gonna just have to change our tactics a bit, investigate in a bit more detail the weaker defensive arcs of each bomber type and go from there.

Can't remember who it was but one WW2 pilot described attacking a B-17 formation and not getting hit akin to trying to run around in the rain and not get wet.

Yoyo, you walked yourself right into his hail of bullets, he never hit you on the way down, he was following trying to keep up, then you went back up and bang.
Try going straight through with your attack maybe.

[farley]

Just jumping in here with a question, and admit to not having read all of the replies to this thread.
Also, question is about 110 rear gunner and not necessarily about bomber gunners.

Watched a show where a pilot of a Dauntless SBD dive bomber in the Pacific ended up in a dogfight with many Zeros.
Because of the sturdiness of the plane he was able to make very high G turns to avoid them.
During this whole fight, which lasted for 15 minutes or so (if i remember correctly), his rear gunner was not able to get off a shot because the G's were so great that he could not move his arms enough to do so; he was basically pinned in his seat.

Flying in single missions i find that the gunner in the 110, even when making a very sharp turn, has no problems getting hits on the following plane.
Does anyone know if G force is taken into account in regards to the gunner?

Note: I am not suggesting that this should be added if it is not, as it sounds like it would be a difficult thing to do, but just curious as to if it is.

[Kling]

Just jumping in here with a question, and admit to not having read all of the replies to this thread.
Also, question is about 110 rear gunner and not necessarily about bomber gunners.

Watched a show where a pilot of a Dauntless SBD dive bomber in the Pacific ended up in a dogfight with many Zeros.
Because of the sturdiness of the plane he was able to make very high G turns to avoid them.
During this whole fight, which lasted for 15 minutes or so (if i remember correctly), his rear gunner was not able to get off a shot because the G's were so great that he could not move his arms enough to do so; he was basically pinned in his seat.

Flying in single missions i find that the gunner in the 110, even when making a very sharp turn, has no problems getting hits on the following plane.
Does anyone know if G force is taken into account in regards to the gunner?

Note: I am not suggesting that this should be added if it is not, as it sounds like it would be a difficult thing to do, but just curious as to if it is.

There is indeed a G limit for the gunners. Cant remember what it is set at however.

[YoYo]

Gonna just have to change our tactics a bit,

no any good tacticts:

Now it seems almost impossible to successfully attac any bomber formation with a single engine fighter. As soon as you get closer than 500 m prepare for a bullet right between your eyes, no matter from which angle you attac.
.

I tried many times (front, up to down, down to up, sides) too and near 95% they hit to water radiator (in Bf) = bye bye.

[Kling]

what skill level are the gunners?

[YoYo]

what skill level are the gunners?

Example was from Quick Mission (default) - "015 - Free Hunt" (just Wellington as defiant).

Bombers from Desastersoft campaigns I dont know.

[DerDa]

As many others, me too was suffering from the better skills of AI gunners.
But this problem seems unavoidable with new patches and third party missions. We had the same in old IL2 1946: the developing team in best intent changed skills of AI gunnery or the effect of bombs by stomping bugs or making them more historically correct but then old SP campaigns suddenly became ridiculously difficult or even unplayable.

I am all for historical correctnes, and I don't think anybody would wish for a lower level of realism in a sim, just to make it easier to play.

So, complains to the developers go to the wrong adress.
It is up to the mission builders to adjust their missions or campaigns to the new requirements.

I am sure you don't have to worry for long about the TFS Missions and campaigns and the multiplayer maps on ATAG and the like. The certainly will work hard and fast to finetune their stuff.
The only problem is with third party content (like those Desastersoft campaigns) from developers who don't seem interested in support.

[YoYo]

The only problem is with third party content (like those Desastersoft campaigns) from developers who don't seem interested in support.

Because Today's owner of this company knows nothing about what he sells :/ .

[QB.Creep]

Maybe gunners from 4.312 wasn't perfect but was mutch better with accuracy (50/50%) than now (100%).

I watched the video of you diving in on that bomber. You had a lot of smash, but you came at him in a straight line behind his 6 without a wingman to draw his fire. If alone, I think it would be much better to use high beam attacks in this situation. In my opinion, the result is realistic and expected - he lit you up like a Christmas tree. Just my opinion of course, but I think this is a welcome improvement over 4.3.

[YoYo]

It was example only of one run.
Angle? From different angle looks the same now in 4.5. Even I dive with 600 km/h on the clock, its an academic discussion.
Scenario after one-two pass is the same. The end of radiator near 100% of situation and bomber is in the air still.


Id like to see video with fight against Wellingtons.

[Vlerkies]

no any good tacticts:
.

Nope, I normally avoid those things like the plague itself.

I did try that mission now, with varying degrees of sorta limited 'success'.
Bloody hard.

I stripped out all planes except the 6 Wellies and a 109 for me.
My aim sucks, and not used to flying the howitzer, but I did manage to get 3 bombers damaged enough they left formo, 1 went down, the other 3 got me and I was outa cannon
Last 2 attacks in the clip were certainly to shallow, and they got rounds on me, but from directly above and fast they didn't just I need better gunnery skills

I tried a number of times, most of them resulted in me getting hit badly though.

[ATAG_yotheguy]

Practice, practice, practice.

@YoYo, in your video you posted you come in from dead six

There is lots of info on the web about fighter tactics.

Here is just one.

[1lokos]

what skill level are the gunners?

Don't help much that in the Quick Mission (15) skill are relatively low - is in "AVERAGE" (0.3) - the same for all Wellington crew and for all group (6 planes):

[BoB_RAF_B_218Sqn.03]
  Flight0  L N R
  Flight1  B D F
  Class Aircraft.WellingtonMkIc
  Formation VIC
  CallSign 18
  Fuel 100
  Weapons 1
  Skill 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 <<<<<<<<<<<<

But CREW skill can be adjusted individually, a tedious work - what in the rushed QM of the (rushed) CloD the mission maker don't care about.

If adjusted individually the mission code change for:

Briefing 2
  Person0_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person0_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person0_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person0_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person0_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person1_0 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person1_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person1_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person1_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person1_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person2_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person2_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person2_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person2_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person2_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person10_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person10_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person10_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person10_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person10_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person11_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person11_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person11_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32
  Person11_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person11_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
   Person12_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person12_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Person12_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person12_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32
  Person12_4 0 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.053 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32

Now Person12_3 and 12_4 (gunners) has 'Aerial gunnery" set low: 0 and 0.053.

Don't test to see if this adjust has real effect of sliders are just "placebos".

[YoYo]

If I have in brief of campaign "kill 6 bombers: Wellingtons" it's a now like suicide . Fortunately, I'm still alive (but without any kill).



The best way will be if 1CGS and TF buy all rights for Desastersoft campaigns and will release new versions (with fix x64). I think many customers will buy it again, especially with the sign of TF.

CloD never dies .

[SIA_Sp00k]

While trying to recognise the wants of the single player crowd, I think CloD is moving past the single player environment. If it wants to sell, its small team (imho) needs to focus on the multiplayer aspect to be competitive.

AI. (IMHO) should be hard. Bomber groups should be attacked by flights or formations. Hard to get you single player AI to play the game perhaps, but it does promote the need for players to form together as friend groups or Squadrons, online. This is good for the game.

Like European Air War, the Red Baron series, Flying Corp Gold, etc etc, the smart move for Single players would be to form a mission, campaign group from within and focus themselves on building single player dynamic campaigns, missions as was before. I doubt TFS with TF 5.0 to come are going to have time to give the single players their due.

(IMHO) as stated above, CloD needs to commit and focus on the MMP crowd. SP may suffer but only if that. Group permits it as the game. Still seems to allow the. homegrown SP builder to do their stuff.

Leave AI as it is please.

[1lokos]

Thing is that MP audience of any IL-2 actually don't gather thousand of players for each.

MP could be the most visible part of a CFS/G, but is not the major market.

Other thing to consider is the average age of SP players, they have no more "teenager FPS pro-player" reflex.

A possible solution for SP is add to game interface sliders for easy adjust AI skills. BTW - Back in time Lutier ("RiP") complain in Yellow forum not be able to make changes in game interface.

Or if someone with programming knowledge make a tool for adjust this outside of the game, like GIX Loadout Toll (similar to 3rd part tools of the old EAW), since these parameters are just text files (example above), will be a good compromise.

FYI - I am not a SP or MP player be any definition.

[PhoenixCNE]

While trying to recognise the wants of the single player crowd, I think CloD is moving past the single player environment. If it wants to sell, its small team (imho) needs to focus on the multiplayer aspect to be competitive.

AI. (IMHO) should be hard. Bomber groups should be attacked by flights or formations. Hard to get you single player AI to play the game perhaps, but it does promote the need for players to form together as friend groups or Squadrons, online. This is good for the game.

Like European Air War, the Red Baron series, Flying Corp Gold, etc etc, the smart move for Single players would be to form a mission, campaign group from within and focus themselves on building single player dynamic campaigns, missions as was before. I doubt TFS with TF 5.0 to come are going to have time to give the single players their due.

(IMHO) as stated above, CloD needs to commit and focus on the MMP crowd. SP may suffer but only if that. Group permits it as the game. Still seems to allow the. homegrown SP builder to do their stuff.

Leave AI as it is please.

I totally agree with the AI point, I kinda like the challenge so far and have found some good angles to attack most of the bombers from so far. I also think you underestimate the size of the SP crowd tho, or the importance that SP has in introducing a player comfortably to a game before thrusting them into the (often brutal) MP world. To put it another way a lot of people use single player as an introduction and learning time (right or wrong, I know TS is a huge help but most people don't like being the "new guy") and not having a single player setup that someone can easily and intuitivly navigate will ultimately hurt the game and the MP numbers in the end. The SP is in dire need of a makeover to make it more approachable to new players but I have the utmost faith that TF know this and will put efforts towards refining it.

[YoYo]

While trying to recognise the wants of the single player crowd, I think CloD is moving past the single player environment....

I think most expected title for MP for 1CGS is IL-2 BoX series, not CloD so cant agree about "the future" of CloD as the main MP simulator WWII on the market and what is interesting I dont know anyone who play CloD in MP (sorry) but single campaigns/missions many (+ BoX MP many for sure) - so it depends from point of view (and expectations) as You see and it's the kind of discussion what is more important: chicken or egg ;>. For me for example BoX for MP is enough (plane/tanks) and I spent on MP in BoX many hours (+ western theatre incoming too).


It also isn't a big problem if on Settings of servers bombers/gunners will be on highest possible level, no any problem I think with this in CloD. Host will decide and can do it in 3 minutes. For SP its more difficult subject and affects for whole the game/campaign ect (especially old).