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Thread: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

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    Combat pilot Bussard's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    I just did some testing with AI gunners in a new mission I created. Setting the skill to poor gives to me the most realistic feeling, the pilot and the bombardier can be set to a different skill level. AI fighters only attack from 6 o’clock and have a better chance to survive with these settings.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by Bussard View Post
    I just did some testing with AI gunners in a new mission I created. Setting the skill to poor gives to me the most realistic feeling, the pilot and the bombardier can be set to a different skill level. AI fighters only attack from 6 o’clock and have a better chance to survive with these settings.
    As well as this u can directly change the bullet loadout of the AI gunners. If u feel the gunners are 5 times better than they should be then in the FMB give them 1 tracer round and 5 "observer" (RAF planes) or "beobachtung" (Luftwaffe planes) rounds in each gun. That way u see and feel hits on your fighter but won't sustain anywhere near as much damage. U could even totally nerf 1 or 2 of the gunners on multi gunner bombers by just eliminating the tracer round. U will still get hit & damaged but may play more to your liking.
    I've never played any DisasterSoft campaigns. Can they be opened in the FMB like the single player games that come with CloD? If so then gunner skill level and loadouts should be able to be modified. It may seem tedious to have to go thru and modify the loadouts on every plane but once u have done it for the 1st plane of any type and given the nerfed loadout a saved name (I call mine DumDown) then that loadout will be available for each plane of that type to select in the Ammo section of Group Properties.
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by alexb View Post
    Of course having a Spitfire damage model that treats front half fuselage as a gigantic radiator tube that breaks as soon as first bullet land, doesn't help either.
    LOL.

    But really are sad RGN ruling this, if gunner hit you in 10 different flights, 1/2 maybe are in your windscreen or your head from the remaining 8, 2 may hit battery or oil reservoir, but 6 will result "water radiator perforated".

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    LOL.

    But really are sad RGN ruling this, if gunner hit you in 10 different flights, 1/2 maybe are in your windscreen or your head from the remaining 8, 2 may hit battery or oil reservoir, but 6 will result "water radiator perforated".
    And a few that did nothing so you didn't even noticed you where actually hit.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    And a few that did nothing so you didn't even noticed you where actually hit.
    These make "tuk, tuk".

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    These make "tuk, tuk".
    1lokos, that is not actually how the damage model works. The actual explanation is that the Gremlins installed in the radiator by the Ruskies Developers hear the "tuk tuk" bullet sound; after hearing this sound, they grab their mini drills and make many holes in the water radiator, resulting in impending engine failure.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    This remind a curious fact, yesterday on QM I have that "Water radiator perforated" and that "steam cloud" behind, but time after the cloud disappeared and I am able to return and landing the Hurricane in Hawking safety with normal temperatures.

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    Combat pilot rel4y's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Just would like to add to this that in a US paper evaluating WWII gunner effectiveness, powered turrets were considered the absolute worst in terms of accuracy. Also that B17 crews were horrendously overclaiming, to the point that in a single raid they claimed half of the Luftwaffe wiped out. The kills however were credited anyway, as the psychological effect on the crew was huge and made up somewhat for very high attrition rates. I think they also send a film crew on board to film the action and the result was that none of the gunner claims could be confirmed via the footage. I have that pdf somewhere on my HDD but cant find it at the moment.

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by rel4y View Post
    Just would like to add to this that in a US paper evaluating WWII gunner effectiveness, powered turrets were considered the absolute worst in terms of accuracy. Also that B17 crews were horrendously overclaiming, to the point that in a single raid they claimed half of the Luftwaffe wiped out. The kills however were credited anyway, as the psychological effect on the crew was huge and made up somewhat for very high attrition rates. I think they also send a film crew on board to film the action and the result was that none of the gunner claims could be confirmed via the footage. I have that pdf somewhere on my HDD but cant find it at the moment.
    Gunner claims have always been highly speculative, especially in case of the large US bomber boxes. You'll have scores of gunners train their guns on the same target, some might even score hits, the aircraft starts trailing coolant, fuel,... and starts to descend. Naturally you'll have all of those who fired at it swear in good faith that it was their kill and you end up with claim figures that are nothing short of ridiculous.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Exactly Karaya.

    The psychological effect on the attacking fighter however is easily underestimated. A hail of tracers going the attackers direction will keep him from being concentrated on his aim, going straight and getting close in general. A sporadic random hit or even a close miss will have a massive psychological effect on the fighter pilot that values his life. Now virtual pilots dont seem to generally value their virtual life very much and do retarded and ahistoric things on a regular basis. So the gunners should be somewhat more effective than in real life. But I am not sure sniping all your systems from half a mile away at impossible angles and relative speed vectors makes much sense.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Torian's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Created a multiplayer server with lots of bomber AI but gunners at rookie level and guns loaded with a tracer (still lethal) and 6 observer/beobachtung rounds. Your fighter can still be shot up but makes it playable instead of dead/disabled b4 u can even get near them. Every1 had a ball but still had to be careful about how they carried out their attack.
    Was also able to edit the single player campaign .mis files (by making them available to the FMB) where attacking AI bombers was the mission and can confirm u can make it playable for yourself while not making it completely unrealistic.
    Not that hard folks, just requires some time and some working knowledge of the FMB.
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Torian View Post
    Created a multiplayer server with lots of bomber AI but gunners at rookie level and guns loaded with a tracer (still lethal) and 6 observer/beobachtung rounds. Your fighter can still be shot up but makes it playable instead of dead/disabled b4 u can even get near them. Every1 had a ball but still had to be careful about how they carried out their attack.
    Was also able to edit the single player campaign .mis files (by making them available to the FMB) where attacking AI bombers was the mission and can confirm u can make it playable for yourself while not making it completely unrealistic.
    Not that hard folks, just requires some time and some working knowledge of the FMB.
    I made a test SP mission with 100 bombers with the gunners set to "0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3" and, besides the barrage of led coming your way, you can make high speed passes.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    QM - 0011 - Bomber Intercept - Channel - Low Level with gunners Artillery in 0.1 to test.

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...423#post300423

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    Exclamation Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Gunner claims have always been highly speculative, especially in case of the large US bomber boxes. You'll have scores of gunners train their guns on the same target, some might even score hits, the aircraft starts trailing coolant, fuel,... and starts to descend. Naturally you'll have all of those who fired at it swear in good faith that it was their kill and you end up with claim figures that are nothing short of ridiculous.
    What's ridiculous is you guys making a point of pointing out US bomber formation doing this, when I'm sure it happened in every Bomber formation from other nationalities. No need to point fingers at Us it's well documented that all bomber and fighter kills were blown out of proportion to boost moral. Both for the military and Civilian sides. For everyone involved.

    I'm not trying to start a flame war..but I do take exception when both of you are clearly going out of your way to point fingers at the US for things every country did. It's ALL speculation
    Last edited by ATAG_Ribbs; Jan-09-2018 at 12:11.
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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    What's ridiculous is you guys making a point of pointing out US bomber formation doing this, when I'm sure it happened in every Bomber formation from other nationalities. No need to point fingers at Us it's well documented that all bomber and fighter kills were blown out of proportion to boost moral. Both for the military and Civilian sides. For everyone involved.

    I'm not trying to start a flame war..but I do take exception when both of you are clearly going out of your way to point fingers at the US for things every country did. It's ALL speculation
    I made a special case of the US bomber forces because no other nation sent waves consisting of dozens if not hundreds of aircraft deep into Germany in broad daylight on a regular basis, not because I want to single out the US. Pretty sure you're taking my (or actually our) post(s) the wrong way...

    The more gunners shooting at any one target at the same time, the higher the number of duplicate claims. Should be fairly logical!
    Last edited by Karaya; Jan-09-2018 at 13:09.

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    Combat pilot rel4y's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    I also know of no other nation conducting a scientific study on this. It was supposed to be more of a general statement. To that all nations handled their kill claims a little differently.

    Murica was definitely spreading some solid freedom with their .50s! *duck*
    Last edited by rel4y; Jan-09-2018 at 13:13.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    What's ridiculous is you guys making a point of pointing out US bomber formation doing this, when I'm sure it happened in every Bomber formation from other nationalities. No need to point fingers at Us it's well documented that all bomber and fighter kills were blown out of proportion to boost moral. Both for the military and Civilian sides. For everyone involved.

    I'm not trying to start a flame war..but I do take exception when both of you are clearly going out of your way to point fingers at the US for things every country did. It's ALL speculation
    I think you are confusing a discussion based on available data with criticism. The U.S.A.A.F. did look seriously into this, because it was trying to learn lessons from the war and assess the true effectiveness of defensive weapons on bombers. The U.S. is being mentioned only because some people like to base reasoning on facts, not on propaganda. Of course every nation boasted and exaggerated their successes.

    I am from U.S. too and I hope we (as a Nation) continue to look at our strengths and weaknesses seriously and objectively, without giving in to politically driven propaganda, at least behind the scenes. Nothing more dangerous than to believe your own propaganda (ask that to the Germans, Japanese, etc.)

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Fair enough..I'm sure I did jump the gun a bit..so I apologise. I just seen US...and felt like We we're being singled out.
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    Fair enough..I'm sure I did jump the gun a bit..so I apologise. I just seen US...and felt like We we're being singled out.
    I am sure that we have all done something like at some point. To be fair, on the internet communication is hard and trolls abound. Cudos to you for recognizing the mistake early. I have found this forum to be populated by well informed people, for the most part. It must be correlated with the interest for a complex Simulation/Game like IL-2 CloD.

    If you want to know more about how Germany tried to counter the problem of stopping the huge allied raids and the reasons why they failed, I recommend reading Adolf Galland's "The First and the Last." I found Gen. Galland to be capable of objective assessments, for the most part; always remember though that he fought on the other side and he was human too. Another good source of a fair assessment about the war is Cloisterman's "The Big Show." The latter is from the perspective of a Frenchman flying for the RAF, until the end. He describes how the challenge of countering the Luftwaffe was much bigger than the press and the perception of the public was, by necessity, at that time. He also talks quite seriously about the problems related to aerial victory claims and how deadly was flak, at low altitude, toward the end of the war.

    ~Uranor

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    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Although in CloD I fly only red, I have read much more books from the German point of view. So this is were my information comes from, but I think it allows some general interpretations, keeping in mind that the allied bomber formations were much bigger and had much more defensive power.

    Amongst them are the books of Galland, two from Steinhoff, Meimberg, Rall and the biography of Krupinski. In addition I have seen several original 'Luftkampfzeugenberichte' and 'Abschussmeldungen' and naturally I have read the quite bizarre 'Des Jägers Schießfibel' a kind of Comic book officially issued in 1944 (and approved by Galland) instead of a proper training.

    1: The 'Luftkampfzeugenberichte' and 'Abschussmeldungen' almost exclusively state "von hinten aus der Überhöhung" (from high six) as the starting poit of an attack.
    2: When the first 4-engine bombers appeared there was a lot of discussion about the tatics for successful attacks (Bf 109 was considered to be more or less useless, because of its light armamant). Most often the attackers dived from high six. Another school of thought proposed frontal attacks. Ths was much more difficult because it needed time to bring a group of attackers into position and after attacking the fighters found themselves right inside the bomber formation. Most unexperienced pilots were not able to hit the target.
    I have never read that 'slashing attacks from the sides were seriously discussed. When the Me 262 appeared frontal attacks were given up, because the high closing speeds and attacking again was done from six.
    Still this worked as long as there were no escort fighters. The German pilots were afraid (and sometimes terrified) of the defensive power of the bombers, but still could cause enormous damage, without too substantial losses.
    Most desired was a breaking of the bomber formation (by Flak or later rockets) and following attacks on stray, single bombers.
    3: One important objective of bomber raids was to lure the German fighters into the air to get them destroyed by the escort fighters.
    4: The 'Schießfibel' mentioned above right at the start tells the pilots to get as close as possible (to 4 engine bombers!). 600 m is much too far for an attack from six, 300 m is told to be the correct distance to start fire and to continue the attack untill much closer.
    While there is a lot of explanation of deflection, it is also pointed out that the the fighter pilot should avoid to get into the propwash of the bomber, but stay a bit higher or lower instead.

    From all this my conclusions are:
    a) that even in Late War attacks on bombers and bomber formations happened mainly from behind.
    b) that the attacks were made from short distance
    c) that these attacks were very successfull as long as no fighter escort was there
    c) that defensive gunnery had an enormous psychological impact (on both sides) but rather limited practical effect.

    This is all I can contribute to the discussion and thus I will stay silent from now.

    S! and don't forget: it is all about the fun
    Last edited by DerDa; Jan-10-2018 at 04:08. Reason: tpyo ... topy ... typos!

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    I highly reccomend this book on this topic

    https://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Ove.../dp/1848327412

    And then read this for how and why the Allies bombed what they did

    https://www.amazon.com/Targeting-Thi.../dp/070062144X

    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Jan-10-2018 at 03:33.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by alexb View Post
    Are you guys serious about current gunners?
    In all my missions I put bombers aerial gunnery to minimum and they still deliver consistently efficient deflection shooting from over 300m, and from every aspect my plane is. From front, back, side shooting, above, below. And all of this without needing to adjust their shoot and they can do this shooting from first burst. Sorry guys but this is not even close to reality and don't resemble at all what is writen in books.

    In all books and articles I've read, one of the hardest and unexpected lessons learned by Germans when fighting against British fighters was that their bombers defensive armament was completely inappropriate and inefficient against modern fighters. Unescorted bombers were described always as easy targets (both by British and by Germans aswel) and their main defense was not their gunners but the low caliber of British machine guns that alowed sometimes a bomber to return with hundreds of bullet holes and even more important the fact that fighters didn't have authorization to persuit bombers and their main goal was just to prevent the attack.

    For those who suggest that we need adjust our tactics, in Battle of Britain, it was from behind that British fighters attacked bombers and although they fly in groups, their attack run was always made alone and on pairs and never with lot of fighters. It was considered to dangerous if more fighters were involved because pilot was concentrated on target and didn't have lateral awareness to prevent collisions. And as opposite to what we have here in 4.5, bomber gunners were not really that dangerous.
    They didn't attack by side or by front because it was a waste of bullets and didn't give them enough time on target to do any real damage with their machine guns. And the skills required and the risk of collision simply did not justify.

    It was just with huge American bomber formations with thousands of heavy machine guns that they started to become a real threat and not because of their accuracy but because they were ALOT.

    Today I've made a mission with 4 spits to target 4 He111. All AI and tried diferent skill levels and almost every time 3 spits didn't return and the only one that did was just because after first run he stopped doin't another attacks because if he had remain on attack he would certainly be killed. Heinkels had sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 returning. Sorry but this is very wrong. At this pace, RAF would have been without fighters after second day of Battle.

    Of course having a Spitfire damage model that treats front half fuselage as a gigantic radiator tube that breaks as soon as first bullet land, doesn't help either.

    I really hope that these gunners could be quickly adjusted because right now is impossible to recreate any fight with fighters against bombers that slightly resembles reality. Its just to gamey and we have to search for game exploits to have a fraction of efficiency that they had in 1940.
    This one is a good post

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by =0T=Robert Galant View Post
    This one is a good post

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    I think what we're missing from games is what real crews had: self-preservation. ZG76_Ezzie's video from the other AI gunner thread, kind of proves this. His virtual pilot is wounded, and he's still pressing the attack. Most people attacking bombers (my self included), get at some point frustrated and throw caution out the window. We get sloppy, get shot down, and it's the gunner's fault.

    In real life, when you started seeing tracers coming your way, you'd most of the time rethink your strategy (it wasn't about how many you shot down - for most pilots it was about getting home in one piece). I see many youtube clips where players attack bombers (not just in CloD) by coming very close to them, and expecting to survive, especially when it's mainly one fighter vs many bombers. This, in my opinion, is not realistic.

    Another issue is numbers. When you're alone against 10 tail gunners, all their attention is focused on your plane, increasing the chances of being hit. When attacking in groups, gunners have multiple contacts to focus on, and might have trouble keeping track of every fighter.

    Memoirs tell how pilots attacked in groups, tried to separate a bomber from the group and continued attacking it until disabled. They also tell how they used blind spots and tried, where possible, to take out the gunners first. If bomber gunners weren't lethal, why would pilots even bother attacking head-on, or from a side where there weren't any guns?

    AI wingman don't have self preservation or even tactical thinking, of course they'll go down in large numbers.

    So I created a simple mission in FMB and did some testing (around 20 something attacks, always with the bomber gunners skill set to 0):

    1. Me in a 109 vs 1 Wellington. Tried slashing attacks. I got hit from time to time, but for the most part I downed it or ran out of ammo.
    2. Then I tried me in a 109 against 4 Wellies. Much harder to down a bomber, but it's doable. Again, slashing attacks from 2-5 and 7-10 o'clock. Got hit more often, but then again it's a larger volume of fire headed your way. The discipline while attacking has to be higher than in the 1st case.
    3. Then I tried me + 3 Veteran 109s vs 4 Wellies. Many Wellies went down, but the 109s were always damaged. The issue is with the fighter AI, they do dive, they do shoot, but they break off too late, most of the time they go through the bomber formation and get peppered.
    4. And finally, I tried me in a 109 vs 4 Wellies, however this time I just parked behind the formation. I started firing MG bursts from around 700m and cannons from 500-400m. I downed 3 Wellies, and damaged the 4th. Repeated, got same results. The secret to not being hit seems to be disengaging at around 400-300m. Sure, I got the occasional hit, but no leaks, no PKs.

    So far, 4 gives best results for human vs AI formation.

    It's funny, but if you set the gunner AI to 0 skill, and look at the turret, you can see how an offset is added on purpose to its targeting solution, such that the AI will miss its target. Even when parked behind the bombers, streams of tracers were going around my plane, like I was inside a cone of tracers, with the gunner being at the tip.

    Regarding always getting hits to crucial systems, it should be noted that there are several sounds which mark a hit. There is the "plink" and there is a "swoosh". The "swoosh" is by no means the bullets going by your plane. They seem to be most of the time hits that didn't hit anything critical (went through the fuselage, maybe?). So count these as well when counting hits. On average, most of the hits I received were harmless.

    For fighter AI vs gunner AI, I see two options:
    a. Obviously improve the fighter AI - make it disengage earlier; implement self-preservation;
    b. Dumb down the gunner AI when its target is a figher AI; this to me seems easier to achieve than a, and could be a compromise for the SP group.

    I got tracks if needed.

    PS: it seems that not all hits generate a hit sound. Not sure if intentional or a bug. This has happened to me online as well. Spit behind me, no hit sound, radiators popped.

    Also, while reviewing the tracks, I noticed that sometimes it looked like I got damage without being hit. I got hit before, no damage was registered in the Vehicle Damage window, but on a 2nd pass, when diving towards the bomber I got the radiator perforated. On closer inspection of the track, there was no hit sound, no smoke puff, and no debris falling from my plane. So, it could be either that I got hit, but no sound/visuals were generated, or I didn't get hit and the radiator just burst open. Temperatures were normal.
    Last edited by katschmarek; Jan-13-2018 at 20:30.

  34. #85
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Returned to this thread after trying the Dunkirk campaign and couldn't survive the first mission. I tried Oden's settings in an FMB test mission and it restored crediblity to the gunners. I didn't want to deal with snipers, but I didn't want mannequins behind the guns, either. Plugging-in Oden's suggested crew settings of 0.9 0.1 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 was a good starting point. I think he's come up with a reasonable AI gunner skill level. Not totally sure this is how it breaks down, but it appears each set of numbers corresponds with the crew slider settings as follows:

    Basic Flying 0.9
    Advanced Flying 0.1
    Awareness 0.7
    Aerial Gunnery 0.1
    Tactics 0.7
    Vision 0.7
    Bravery 0.7
    Discipline 0.7

    The test mission consisted of an AI Bf-110C vs Rotol Hurricane. Interestingly, I changed the 110 to a Do-17 and the gunners seemed to behave differently even at the same skill settings. I'm not bothered so much by fairly accurate bomber gunners trying to defend a large, unmaneuvering aircraft, it's the two-man crews like Ju-87s and 110s that tend to exhibit extraordinary marksmanship abilities in wildly maneuvering aircraft under varying G-loads. It's hard to believe a rear-facing gunner subjected to changing, or even steady, G-loads can shoot that accurately. I wish TF every success in tackling the AI issues. Those of us who choose SP for whatever reason would be forever grateful.
    Last edited by I_B_Spectre; Feb-16-2018 at 11:17. Reason: corrected aircraft model number

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    After getting 4.53 working I fired-up the Redux Campaign (RAF side) and found that a group of three He-111s I intercepted would not shoot at me...at all. You could park on their 6 and bang away 'til the barrels melted down and they forged ahead with no defensive action. I'd read there had been some adjustment to reduce the sniperage by rear gunners, but they now appeared to be comatose. Have I missed something that might cause this?

  36. #87
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by I_B_Spectre View Post
    After getting 4.53 working I fired-up the Redux Campaign (RAF side) and found that a group of three He-111s I intercepted would not shoot at me...at all. You could park on their 6 and bang away 'til the barrels melted down and they forged ahead with no defensive action. I'd read there had been some adjustment to reduce the sniperage by rear gunners, but they now appeared to be comatose. Have I missed something that might cause this?
    What were the gunner skill setting?
    The spectrum from novice to ace has been tweaked. At ace level they will get you while at novice setting they will look at you really angry!

  37. #88
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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    I have had no issue so far in odens dynamic campaign (other than beaufighter squadrons spawning and exploding for some unknown reason) the bombers have a great balance so far.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    What were the gunner skill setting?
    The spectrum from novice to ace has been tweaked. At ace level they will get you while at novice setting they will look at you really angry!
    I have no idea. While I did experiment with crew gunnery settings in a Dunkirk-based test mission, I haven't tweaked any of the Redux Channel RAF or Luftwaffe settings.

    Update: I have no idea what was going on with the He-111 crews, but I just flew the follow-on mission in the Cliffs of Dover (Redux) campaign and the Bf-110 rear gunners were wide awake and engaging. I feel the AI tweak is good for SP and gives a sporting chance to attacker and defender alike if prudent tactics are observed. One of the previous missions gave me a surprise, I'd never had the bullet-resistant center windscreen crack from enemy fire. It was a neat effect. Usually I get the red-screen-of-serious-injury and/or oil smearing, so the cracks were cool. Made me have to open the canopy on short final so I could see the threshold. Also seemed to be more haze in the atmospherics. Previously, most of the time you had severe-clear when you could see the continent most anytime you got some altitude over Blighty. Now, you know it's "over there", but it's not clearly visible. Keep up the good work, TF.
    Last edited by I_B_Spectre; Feb-19-2018 at 22:29.

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    Re: For those who now feel the bomber gunnery in 4.5 is TOO good

    Quote Originally Posted by I_B_Spectre View Post
    I have no idea. While I did experiment with crew gunnery settings in a Dunkirk-based test mission, I haven't tweaked any of the Redux Channel RAF or Luftwaffe settings.

    Update: I have no idea what was going on with the He-111 crews, but I just flew the follow-on mission in the Cliffs of Dover (Redux) campaign and the Bf-110 rear gunners were wide awake and engaging. I feel the AI tweak is good for SP and gives a sporting chance to attacker and defender alike if prudent tactics are observed. One of the previous missions gave me a surprise, I'd never had the bullet-resistant center windscreen crack from enemy fire. It was a neat effect. Usually I get the red-screen-of-serious-injury and/or oil smearing, so the cracks were cool. Made me have to open the canopy on short final so I could see the threshold. Also seemed to be more haze in the atmospherics. Previously, most of the time you had severe-clear when you could see the continent most anytime you got some altitude over Blighty. Now, you know it's "over there", but it's not clearly visible. Keep up the good work, TF.
    Just to say also with regard to atmospheric 'haze' - we rarely get the excellent visibility that Clod has portrayed, so good to see the haze introduced in 4.5. It can't be technically difficult to introduce a weather option to set visibility to varying levels - IL2 1946 did it. It's just that poor visibility affected real BoB operations significantly - e.g. the 15th August 1940 attack by Erprobungsgruppe 210 on Croydon which they mistook for Kenley (at one point on the way in the attackers couldn't even tell whether they were over land or sea - you can always see exactly where you are in CloD!)

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