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Thread: RAF Bias Server Missions??

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    RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Ok, I don't want to be a Negative Nancy and raise the BS flag here, but it seems to me, and others that there might just be an RAF bias when it comes to some of these server missions.


    Joydivision:
    For example, on Joy Division...Last night there were about 6 Blenheim pilots (who are pretty damn good btw) on when the mission started. We started off even strength of numbers.
    I called an AI raid to Rochester and I was flying blue with 7 BF-110s and 1x E1B and we proceeded to our targets of Chelmsford, Northfleet oil, Gravesend oil, Rochester, Gravesend flak, which we destroyed.. Before some of us were even half way back, RAF completed all objectives. How is that even possible? Does the RAF not have as many objectives to hit? Do they not need to fly as far? I mean Chelmsford is almost off the map. Two nights in a row Red side won Joy Division in ~35 minutes or so without AI support. To me that is a map killer and really just " Unjoyable Division". What is the point if your only hope is just prolonging the inevitable by playing defense?


    New Dawn Fades


    This is one of my favorite maps ever. But this is another map where I have to question if there is an RAF bias. The RAF has airspawns which is an advantage to bomber pilots. Why doesn't the Luftwaffe have airspawns somewhere between France and the Isle of Wight? It is not fair for our JU-88s, 111s or BR20s to have to fly 30+ minutes or more from Theville,France to some targets. Blenheims can make 2 or 3 runs in that time frame and it is almost impossible to keep a Blenheim from dropping bombs on target even if it is a 1 way trip for them. RAF can win without hitting any targets in France.

    If you're gonna give airspawns to one side, then give airspawn to the other side as well. It's all about fairness.



    AI Bombers:


    Ok, here's another thing that chaps my ass.
    I've seen 9 Dornier bombers fly to an airfield unmolested and not take it out (~70% damage). I've seen Wellingtons get almost completely wiped out in an intercept, but it only took 2 Wellingtons to take out Calais Mark. Bias?


    All i'm saying is maybe some changes should be considered and a closer look at mission objective requirements.


    Jaydog

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Try to fly red.
    Then you certainly will find that all the maps are biased in favour of the blue side ...

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    I agree with Jay on the balance (not bias) issue. It seems easier to flip the map on Red.

    Not sure if it's the payload, since we were flying 110s compared to the Blenheims.

    The objective list for Axis may need to be more specific about targets. 'Rochester' is not enough to explain multiple targets on the field. North hangars, South,...

    Otherwise good map, though. Thanks for it.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    I agree with Jay on the balance (not bias) issue. It seems easier to flip the map on Red.

    Not sure if it's the payload, since we were flying 110s compared to the Blenheims.

    The objective list for Axis may need to be more specific about targets. 'Rochester' is not enough to explain multiple targets on the field. North hangars, South,...

    Otherwise good map, though. Thanks for it.
    Having 5 - 10 dedicated bombers flying for the duration of the map, I would think the Red would flip more maps than Blue. On the other hand when DRock organizes the Blue side to fly bombers, it is a toss up!

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Lucky}{awk View Post
    Having 5 - 10 dedicated bombers flying for the duration of the map, I would think the Red would flip more maps than Blue. On the other hand when DRock organizes the Blue side to fly bombers, it is a toss up!

    Even with dedicated bombers on blue side, it is still not enough. Blue barely won the Isle of Wight map yesterday, even when there were only 2 Blennies on. I think there is a disproportionate balance of objectives required for the two sides. Everything needed for Red is on the Isle, whereas blue has to fly all over the place to hit objectives.


    If 6 Blennies can flip Joy Division on one sortie each, I think it needs to be re-evaluated. Like I said, we were all still on our first sortie when it flipped. Unrealistic.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    I agree with Jay on the balance (not bias) issue. It seems easier to flip the map on Red.

    Not sure if it's the payload, since we were flying 110s compared to the Blenheims.

    The objective list for Axis may need to be more specific about targets. 'Rochester' is not enough to explain multiple targets on the field. North hangars, South,...

    Otherwise good map, though. Thanks for it.


    Why does flak have to be taken out at 6 fields when the fields themselves are not targets for Blue? Just adds another trip out of the way. Especially when we hit Gravesend oil yesterday..I blew it up , yet it took two more bombs for some reason, even though all the tanks were destroyed. Blue can never win if there are bugs like that or we have to double tap each target

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    I've seen 9 Dornier bombers fly to an airfield unmolested and not take it out (~70% damage). I've seen Wellingtons get almost completely wiped out in an intercept, but it only took 2 Wellingtons to take out Calais Mark. Bias?
    I can take credit for that ... blunder? AI is a really screwy thing to work with. When I made the AI raids, I tried my best to watch them all but it seems they are hit and miss when it comes to bombing. If I had the time I'd re-do them. IF anyone wants a job making AI missions, I should be around next week to give a work order for it. It's very simple, very basic as far as the FMB goes, just requires position detail (for the description, script messages and such) and of course the time to watch them fly to target and see where the bombs land, adjust, rinse, repeat etc.. PM me to volunteer.

    On that note, and with other points raised, this is all good feedback for mission builders as long as its constructive criticism - a long lost art.

    If I may speak for those who have built missions for the ATAG servers, it is difficult to balance things, and we do try our best. Making detailed notes to help fix anything truly buggy really goes a long way to help. As always I encourage people to learn to build missions, making content for this sim is not easy, but it provides entertainment for all of us. It's also very rewarding and the ladies won't leave you alone! (not a salesman here)

    For airfields, the strength (bomb kg required for destruction) can be easily adjusted to help balance things out. It's tricky to do sometimes because of the payload difference of the a/c of each side, then there's the forever changing variables of who's flying what, who's trying to flip the map, how many players are on and who's coordinated, bla bla bla... You know what I mean? It's a moving 'target', basically.



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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
    Why does flak have to be taken out at 6 fields when the fields themselves are not targets for Blue?
    Don't waste bombs on the flak, strafe them! I actually like that feature, you can fly over in the 110 and drop a tonne on the field then use up your ammo taking out flak. Makes the whole trip much more worthwhile.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    @Freya, I think it's great to have the human/random elements tweaking the parameters out of whack. The sending of bomber formations is a nice touch too when numbers are low.

    Though I can't speak for the blue side as I have never flown on it, I can certainly say that some maps, like new dawn fades, are very difficult to win, and we have it worked out to a science. I remember the first time we actually won it, and it wasn't that long ago. Took three attempts yesterday before I could get hits on Ryde/Bembrige. We usually get disabled by flak before our remains get vulched off by our frenemies....if we even make it to target.

    I think adding randomness, like changing the required triggers to flip a target, or making the human elements more disruptive to the code, would add some good dose of unfairness to both sides. I think unfairness is healthy, so long as we both experience it.

    @Jaydog, I would say I agree in most respects. The Isle of Wight is a killer though...but yes, most maps can be won efficiently with a pack of 4 working Blenheims. I was rather shocked when you guys won the Isle of Wight last night...which I think proves your point.

    Given that both sides are always stressing about (the virtual) war being unfair on the server, I have to say that the ATAG boys get an A+ for delivering on the intended effect. Right?

    If you guys decide to make it more difficult. Bring it on! We're always there for the fight, and it dovetails right in to what we read in the accounts....That it was often tactically "unfair"...especially for Blenheim crews early on.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Just for the record: New Dawn Fades does have an air spawn for LW bombers. And some months ago we had an internal discussion that this map is impossible to win for red. And I can recall discussions about overall blue biased maps on ATAG servers.

    I guess the changes since 4.5 tend to motivate red players a little bit more. And the red bomber crews are getting more and more dedicated and experienced. I would take it as a challenge for blue players to gain the initiative again.

    This thread indicates for me that the maps are spot on because both sides think its hard to win ...

    o7
    John Lydgate: “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_PanTast View Post
    Just for the record: New Dawn Fades does have an air spawn for LW bombers. And some months ago we had an internal discussion that this map is impossible to win for red. And I can recall discussions about overall blue biased maps on ATAG servers.

    I guess the changes since 4.5 tend to motivate red players a little bit more. And the red bomber crews are getting more and more dedicated and experienced. I would take it as a challenge for blue players to gain the initiative again.

    This thread indicates for me that the maps are spot on because both sides think its hard to win ...

    o7


    There is indeed an airspawn for the LW in New Dawn Fades, but it is even further south then the Land bases in France. I used it last night. It took ~ 30 minutes to get to Ford in a Ju-88. Even two 88s dumping everything in a low level attack could not flip Ford. I would think it would be even longer if I went to Upavon or Salisbury. Moreoever what I find troubling is the lighting. You cannot read your gauges because of the lighting and sun angles when the map starts from the LW airspawn, thus cooking your engines within 10 seconds as you fumble around trying to read them and adjust pitch, throttle etc. during spawn. It's a bit tricky. I'm not kidding about cooking your engine. Blew my oil within 10 seconds.

    There just aren't enough people who want to fly the 88 or 111s that long and far. Especially if you fly that long and get PK'd before dropping bombs which is very possible with the amount of Flak at Ford. There outta be an airspawn in the middle of the channel or at least north of TheVille.

    Don't get me wrong, New Dawn Fades is my favorite mp and I love it more than any other, but the Red can win a lot easier because all their targets are within a small target area, which is why 4 Blennies can flip it. Add the Hurri bombers to the mix and it gets flipped a lot sooner. LW has target objectives which are all spread out. I think there should be mandatory targets for Red side to hit in France in order to win, even if AI is needed to knock a base out.
    Last edited by jaydog; Feb-11-2018 at 10:51.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    The only thing I'll say is that pre 4.5 all my missions had the same amount and same types of targets for both sides. The only difference is airfield % were set much lower for the Red side because of bomb loads... perhaps these could increase a bit with the addition of the new Blenheim loud outs.
    ♠ S_M ♠


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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
    but the Red can win a lot easier because all their targets are within a small target area, which is why 4 Blennies can flip it.
    Are we talking about the same mission?
    To stop the E4 from arriving Red has to tke out Querqueville. That's quite a bit away from the Isle of Wight.
    Even with the new loadout 4 Blennies at least have to get through, to take this one airfield out.
    Try to bomb something on the Isle of Wight and AAA will get you before you can drop with a 50% chance at least.

    The only thing in favour of red is that you will certainly die in the attack, so you don't have to fly all the long way home

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Last night on the "Isle of Pain", and on a single sortie, BlackJack got hit by 21 different flak guns (BlackJack 21 hehe) followed by myself getting hit by 16 different bofors + an M-Class + a bonus stray bullet from a blue after being disabled. I managed to damage one tent. =-)

    Jaydog, we saw you on there working hard and getting blasted too at Ford. We often get PK'd just before releasing the goods after a 30 minute flight. Had it happen last week flying to Amiens. Flight plan was 26:41 long + takeoff and acceleration. At around minute 32 on target the screen went black.

    From a tactics standpoint, I saw a horde (5 109s?) loitering around the north side of the isle not doing much other than congo-line my decoy Beaufighter on the deck. You and a few others were doing the hard work. I think if Goering demoralized a few of the crews into 88s and sent the rest to escort, you would have some serious gravity on the map. The flak on the isle is honestly more effective at taking us down, though the fighters do tend to slow us down to some effect -mostly on the way home.

    ~S~

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Zeb View Post
    @Freya, I think it's great to have the human/random elements tweaking the parameters out of whack. The sending of bomber formations is a nice touch too when numbers are low.

    Though I can't speak for the blue side as I have never flown on it, I can certainly say that some maps, like new dawn fades, are very difficult to win, and we have it worked out to a science. I remember the first time we actually won it, and it wasn't that long ago. Took three attempts yesterday before I could get hits on Ryde/Bembrige. We usually get disabled by flak before our remains get vulched off by our frenemies....if we even make it to target.

    I think adding randomness, like changing the required triggers to flip a target, or making the human elements more disruptive to the code, would add some good dose of unfairness to both sides. I think unfairness is healthy, so long as we both experience it.

    @Jaydog, I would say I agree in most respects. The Isle of Wight is a killer though...but yes, most maps can be won efficiently with a pack of 4 working Blenheims. I was rather shocked when you guys won the Isle of Wight last night...which I think proves your point.

    Given that both sides are always stressing about (the virtual) war being unfair on the server, I have to say that the ATAG boys get an A+ for delivering on the intended effect. Right?

    If you guys decide to make it more difficult. Bring it on! We're always there for the fight, and it dovetails right in to what we read in the accounts....That it was often tactically "unfair"...especially for Blenheim crews early on.


    Yes, agree that ATAG map/mission makers do a great job overall. A++++ .....I'm positive now after reading Freyas response that some of the things that happen aren't intentional. I'm actually thinking about taking him up on mission making and learning, but I'm not a tech guru and my confidence and skill isn't all that great when it comes to that stuff.

    I think what hurts blue side is that we cant carry as many bombs and have to fly further. We dont get any 110s until Bembridge becomes available unless you're willing to fly across the channel. which is about 30-35 minutes after mission start. By that time, usually Blennies have taken out Ryde or Sandown. The only reason why we won the other day is because there weren't enough Blennies on until it was too late. We only get 2 bombs on 110s and there is little room for error.

    Join on us blue one time and I will will fly red one time. Try flying to Ford and surviving, you will see it it just as bad as Bembridge, if not worse. It took 5 trips yesterday by me in an 88, a 110, and 3x 109 sorties...and I died on every single one just to knock out 6 hangers and the fuel. That doesn't include several others that also attacked it, including Kiwi in an 88. Or try taking out the ships and fuel at Portsmouth which have a few corvettes protecting it. It's a meatgrinder. Now I know what the Japanese pilots went through attacking ships in the Pacific lol...

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    Are we talking about the same mission?
    To stop the E4 from arriving Red has to tke out Querqueville. That's quite a bit away from the Isle of Wight.
    Even with the new loadout 4 Blennies at least have to get through, to take this one airfield out.
    Try to bomb something on the Isle of Wight and AAA will get you before you can drop with a 50% chance at least.

    The only thing in favour of red is that you will certainly die in the attack, so you don't have to fly all the long way home


    Actually, the E4B arrive regardless once Bembridge becomes operational. Red does not have to attack any targets in France to win. The E4Ns arrive later in barges if Bembridge is not taken out. Reds can airspawn , fly 10 minutes, drop bombs....die, airspawn again......It's a constant conveyer belt of bombers coming and very hard to defend as they are in a shallow dive the whole way in.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Zeb View Post
    Last night on the "Isle of Pain", and on a single sortie, BlackJack got hit by 21 different flak guns (BlackJack 21 hehe) followed by myself getting hit by 16 different bofors + an M-Class + a bonus stray bullet from a blue after being disabled. I managed to damage one tent. =-)

    Jaydog, we saw you on there working hard and getting blasted too at Ford. We often get PK'd just before releasing the goods after a 30 minute flight. Had it happen last week flying to Amiens. Flight plan was 26:41 long + takeoff and acceleration. At around minute 32 on target the screen went black.

    From a tactics standpoint, I saw a horde (5 109s?) loitering around the north side of the isle not doing much other than congo-line my decoy Beaufighter on the deck. You and a few others were doing the hard work. I think if Goering demoralized a few of the crews into 88s and sent the rest to escort, you would have some serious gravity on the map. The flak on the isle is honestly more effective at taking us down, though the fighters do tend to slow us down to some effect -mostly on the way home.

    ~S~


    Well those other 109s were not on comms, that I can tell you. Some LW pilots are allergic to bombs and forget they can still dogfight and intercept with or without one attached. I try to drop on a target and intercept and fight any RAF I encounter, but thats just me. Before 4.5, we would purposely leave Hamble open for the dogfighting fun, but there is no point in it now. We are forced with trying to force Hurris to fly further now to buy us time to bomb.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_PanTast View Post
    Just for the record: New Dawn Fades does have an air spawn for LW bombers. And some months ago we had an internal discussion that this map is impossible to win for red. And I can recall discussions about overall blue biased maps on ATAG servers.

    I guess the changes since 4.5 tend to motivate red players a little bit more. And the red bomber crews are getting more and more dedicated and experienced. I would take it as a challenge for blue players to gain the initiative again.

    This thread indicates for me that the maps are spot on because both sides think its hard to win ...

    o7
    Agree! I remember when we first played the map!Our thoughts were this is impossible to win. For the first 15 times we played the map, we all died 6+ times. After perserverance, gaining experience we finally won a map. To me,it is not fun knowing your going to get another 6+ deaths, sitting in the rear gunner and getting the message, your dead by flack, not even getting a chance to take a pot shot at those Blue flyers who hang over the Island, waiting to pounce! In the end, we sacrifice with deaths but we keep going and this map is still as challenging as it was ment to be and yes the oldman hangs in now, where before he would just exit. lol Salute to you map makers and a big thanks!

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    New Dawn Fades at the moment is a very good map and one that I think is reasonably even (maybe slightly harder for Blue) given that similar numbers of bombers are on both sides, as the case tends to be with all of the maps. The only thing that bugs me about it is the airspawn above Odiham that the Blenheims use to do a nice long shallow dive to the IOW and make interception very difficult. It's the one major gripe I notice that many on Blue Teamspeak will talk about at some point or another and might be worth a look at.

    A few days ago on that 7 Bf110 raid on Joy Division I think we were closer to flipping the map than we realised. It does not take at all that many targets for either side to destroy before the mission is won (Blue has done it before) and it happened that Red got there first, through what I assume to be careful planning and use of bombing assets.

    The issue with the AI raids is that field tonnages usually appear to be weighted so Blenheims will take the same percentage out of an airfield as a Heinkel or Ju88 - 1000ish lb or 500kg vs 2000-2400kg. This is all well and good when Blenheims and Ju 88s are bombing but when a Wellington AI raid is sent (2040 kgs) they do as much damage as 4 Blenheims per plane. Possible solutions could be to send a full Wellington formation to target a field but only some are carrying their ordnance, or just use AI Blenheims to target fields instead.

    My $0.02 as a regular Blue flier


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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Ive only built 1 mission with Freya and SM's help (London Ruft) and spent a lot of time trying to make it balanced. Its tricky and clever players will identify ways to fast track rolling the mission that the designer didnt think about. i can only speak about mine and i tried to bias it towards bombers.

    Feedback is great so thanks Jaydog for getting the discussion going.

    Ezzie

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Salute Everyone,

    After reading all the comments I would like to share my thoughts.

    1- We all have to remember that the Isle of White is not a country its an Island.
    2- The Blues have taken it over and are building strength there but not yet.
    3- The Reds are upset that this has happened and are unleashing hell upon the Island.
    4- At first the Barges have not arrived to build up Benbridge, and add more triple A
    to the other fields.
    5- So the real problem for blues is that they must over come the attacks upon them at the Island
    with supplies and bombers coming from France and the aircraft provided to them at the Island.
    6- My personal experience of combat “ NOTHING IS FAIR OR EQUAL”
    7-The builder of this Map was spot on in every way...he provided us with a simulation not
    an arcade game.
    8-The fact is that ATAG, Team Fusion and Map builders have provided us with an awesome simulation.

    That's all I got to say about that.....

    69th_Red}{awk
    Last edited by 69th_Red}{awk; Feb-12-2018 at 13:58.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Really good posts in here.

    Balancing these maps seems like an impossibility. There are so many factors that would affect the outcome, that it would be like predicting next week's weather. Comparing numbers won't work, since one side could be stacked with Vets. Payload only goes so far, until you introduce cannons. This is a tough one to solve.

    Redhawk makes a good point about accepting the maps the way they are. It reminds me that we have to adapt to the battle. Maybe one side has to do a better job at defending their targets, instead of equally matching the number of Bomber pilots. Fighter intercepts can really change things.

    The bottom line is the we've got a lot of experienced pilots in these skies. What worked yesterday, may have little or no effect tomorrow.

    The numbers on TeamSpeak make a huge difference, as well. It hasn't been mentioned, but coordination has the biggest effect on the outcome of these maps.


    Thank you to our map makers. Much appreciated.
    Last edited by ATAG_DRock; Feb-12-2018 at 19:58.

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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    Really good posts in here.

    Balancing these maps seems like an impossibility. There are so many factors that would affect the outcome, that it would be like predicting next week's weather. Comparing numbers won't work, since one side could be stacked with Vets. Payload only goes so far, until you introduce cannons. This is a tough one to solve.

    Redhawk makes a good point about accepting the maps the way they are. It reminds me that we have to adapt to the battle. Maybe one side has to do a better job at defending their targets, instead of equally matching the number of Bomber pilots. Fighter intercepts can really change things.

    The bottom line is the we've got a lot of experienced pilots in these skies. What worked yesterday, may have little or no effect tomorrow.

    The numbers on TeamSpeak make a huge difference, as well. It hasn't been mentioned, but coordination has the biggest effect on the outcome of these maps.


    Thank you to our map makers. Much appreciated.


    You are 100% correct DRock with everything you said. Payloads, numbers, strategy and pilot skill sets on either side greatly affect the overall outcome. And yes, I agree map makers have an incredibly difficult job trying to balance the maps out. I really miss some of other maps like the LeHarve map and hope it comes back soon in some form or fashion... I only try to provide feedback based on my observations on ways to try to better it for all, not just blue side or red side. While I do do fly mostly blue, you know i'm not allergic to climbing in a Hurri or Beau when the numbers are lopsided.

    @Redhawk....Yes sir, ATAG, TF and all the map builders have done a great job overall providing the IL-2 community a great sim and product. There's a reason why I have spent almost 2000 hrs on ATAG servers alone trying to shoot you, Lucky and rest of the 69th boys down Sir in the last 1 1/2 years.

    Cliffs would be a dead without all their hard work. That's a fact we can all agree on.
    Last edited by jaydog; Feb-13-2018 at 13:36.

  36. #24
    Supporting Member MightyBouff's Avatar
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    On the Isle of Wight mission its also pretty bugged I think. The AI bombers don't hit their targets on either side and as red you don't seem to be able to stop the barges so the insane AA always goes up quite quickly.

    This map is one of the most unrealistic - you'd have artillery fire putting the airfields out of operation very quickly given the short ranges involved I'd have thought. That said I think it is one of the most fun because you get in combat lovely and quickly, there are plenty of nice objectives for red (I prefer bombing things like planes and tents to just cratering a runway, though a mix of both is best!)
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  37. #25
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Ive only skipped read so forgive me.

    See there's a lot of comments about the murderous flak around the airfields.

    Unless its changed NDF has clear skies and most of the combat tends to be low/medium level and in the Solent. Few RAF types consider flying east of Portsmouth due to the sun and the fun to be had below them.

    A lot of angst seems to occur when people swap their Tea for Saki and take the knotted hanky off their heads to make into a headband with the rising sun on it. What is surprising is that the inevitable outcome seems to be surprising to some. What is even more surprising is that it remains so - rotation after rotation.

    Level Bombing from 5 or 6K using a route away from the hotspot would appear to be a reasonably survivable tactic. Using the one guy willing to fly a medium as a master bomber for 109s and 110s is also not beyond the dreams of Abergavenny.

    Maps have to cater for every eventuality. Its not possible to win em all if the numbers and/or logistics call for greater effort. In such cases take pride in your endeavours and technical prowess and bask in the glory of return home to cake and medals. Then use the knowledge gained to win the map when the stars align.
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  39. #26
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post

    A lot of angst seems to occur when people swap their Tea for Saki and take the knotted hanky off their heads to make into a headband with the rising sun on it.
    Hehe ! but it's soooooo much fun !


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  40. #27
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    First and foremost, huge thanks to the map makers, because I genuinely enjoy every map in the rotation (and like others, miss a few, especially that Le Havre one)! Your work is appreciated, and if there are requests for changes, it is only with the utmost respect for your time and talent that you have put in.

    I was on the red side for all of the particular episodes Jay brought up, and I think he has some fair points, but some others I disagree with.

    Re: the Isle of Pain map - I agree it would be more fair for the LW to have their air start roughly the same distance from the Island as the Red Oldham one is. It seems like moving the air start might not be as difficult a change, as compared to moving the AI bomber strikes or fixing the barges, for example. With that said, this map is bloody hard for Red side. I literally had my first RTB bomber strike in like 8 months the other night; it's absolutely murderous to fly anywhere over the island! Maybe the Island could have a little lower concentration of flak, or those 6 uber-powerful M-class boats vs. 2 most-useless-in-the-history-of-the-RN Corvettes could be revisited, so it's not impossible to approach the island low after the first 30 mins. I'd much rather be flying low out of Ford, but the air start is virtually a requirement once Bembridge and the additional flak go live.

    Re: Joy Division - I disagree that this map is unbalanced. We were highly coordinated to finish the map in one sortie a few times, and there's no reason you can't do the same. In particular, you guys chose fighter-bombers instead of true bombers, and chose some soft targets of opportunity instead of only focusing on the hard bomber targets. You'd have won if you'd taken 88's instead of 110's, hit only the hard targets instead of wasting bombs on flak, and/or devoted a couple fighters to defending the obvious targets like Calais and Boulogne. We'd have lost if we'd opted for our fighter-bomber options (Hurris or Blenheim IVF's), or if we'd wasted bombs on soft targets.

    The objectives on Joy Division are just as far away on either side - Amiens is nearly off the map as well, like Chelmsford. St. Omer has three component triggers that are not described in the briefing, just like Rochester, and it's just as far. The flak are optional 'soft' targets of opportunity, just like ours - and are kind of a waste of bomber assets. Our AI raids can't hit anything on this map either. Basically, the more I think about it, this map is as fair as it gets!

    Lastly, I also agree the Wellington AI raids are a little overpowered. The option of only having AI Blenheims might work, but it would be a shame to lose the Wellies. How about reducing the size of AI Wellington raids to maybe 4-6 birds? I think this would be both more fair, and in a way more historically accurate (based on Bomber Command strength at the time vs. the LW's bomber assets). Hopefully this would also be a relatively simple change to implement.

    Final thought - love flying against you Jaydog, Kiwi, DRock, and others! You make my bomber life bloody hard when you intercept, and I get such a kick out of the competitive battles we have every night, and seeing your tactics evolve to turn maps! ~Salute

  41. #28
    Novice Pilot Dingo's Avatar
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    As I'm sure other vet's will attest:
    War isn't fair.
    Flack is accurate.
    Friendly fire isn't.

    Any attack on a defended installation ended with losses, gunners, both Naval and Air Defence, were highly trained and experienced so low level attacks on airfields were suicide particularly if conducted solo. By the 1940's gunnery was a science not just some guy sitting in a seat blazing away, Baders rhubarb plans had the wing remaining above 8,000' specifically to avoid the smaller caliber flack, fly below that at your own peril as he discovered.

    I'm regularly impressed with the coordination and bloody minded persistence of the Blenney crews to force an outcome, so develop tactics, fight smart, persist with good plans and execute them with purpose and you'll be surprised at the outcome.

    Or blame the dev's because it wasn't your fault the enemy turned the map?

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  43. #29
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    Re: RAF Bias Server Missions??

    wow
    Last edited by Ruff; Apr-01-2018 at 01:37.

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