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Thread: Lets discuss the Beau

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post


    Rad 100% open admittedly and jumped the gun a couple of times wanting to open the throttle more.
    I definitely agree the startup time feels a bit longer than most aircraft, but I am not sure if the video is exactly a representative example. I tried this myself with the stopwatch on my phone and after 5 minutes and 30 seconds or so I was able to taxi to the runway and take off. It has been a little while since I have flown a Blenheim, but are the startup times comparable?

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    I tested the Br20 warm up at Berk on the Raiders map. 4mins30secs.

    Rads closed, throttle 10%. Not sure of ambient temperature.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlMarks View Post
    I definitely agree the startup time feels a bit longer than most aircraft, but I am not sure if the video is exactly a representative example. I tried this myself with the stopwatch on my phone and after 5 minutes and 30 seconds or so I was able to taxi to the runway and take off. It has been a little while since I have flown a Blenheim, but are the startup times comparable?
    Well it is a true representation of an instance. I agree general starting times are much shorter. That said, that shouldnt happen at all. If the ending wasnt so comical, I would have cried man tears.
    Blenny does not have the start up time concerns found in the Beau.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post


    Rad 100% open admittedly and jumped the gun a couple of times wanting to open the throttle more.
    I couldn't watch the vid to the end.
    It was just too long.
    Please tell me what happened. Did you run out of fuel?

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    I couldn't watch the vid to the end.
    It was just too long.
    Please tell me what happened. Did you run out of fuel?
    I want to, but this is one of those moments where you must live through the experience. This is the only way to achieve true enlightenment. This isnt some fictional fantasy brought about by the likes of Stephen King. This is actual footage of what occurred at that time, on that day. A nitty gritty fair dinkum black and white reality. (post war colourisation may have been rendered). A tale brought to life otherwise forgotten in the annals of CloD history. Pappy Boyington, Douglas Bader and the guy who does Donald Ducks voice, all would be proud to narrate this video. Would we cheapen ourselves and skip to the end of The Longest Day, Angels One Five, Saving Private Ryan or Harry met Sally? Nay, I think not.

    A real person endured his own private hell in that cockpit. This is your chance to be me! A chance to experience the sacrifice, courage, grit and determination of a true CloD hero! Would you deny yourself that experience?

    I dont think you would do yourself any favours doing so and I in good concience could not do it to you.

    Live dangerously, for the moment, take life by the horns, push play and get ready for one of lifes truly great pleasures and an ending that shall Amaze!
    Last edited by TWC_Sp00k; Mar-12-2018 at 01:47.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Just a clarification based on comments here and elsewhere:

    We are in the process of *adding* some airspawns to *some* maps, NOT replacing the regular cold start ground spawns. A lot of folks seemed to think that the cold start ground spawns for certain aircraft like the Beaufighters were being eliminated. This was NEVER the plan. For those who prefer the authentic start up and warming procedure for these aircraft, nothing changes.

    For those who are short on time and/or patience, airspawns obviously mean you are flying immediately. The airspawns are designed to NOT give a tactical advantage other than not being obliged to nurse a cold blooded machine for 5 minutes or so into full operability. The airspawns will be placed far inland and at low altitude to basically tactically replicate a normal takeoff from the usual inland airfields.

    I have requested our intrepid mapmakers to include Beaufighters, Br20’s due to their lengthy warm up from cold engine status, plus Blenheims and 110’s for playability reasons. Not only to accommodate our multi-engine friends on both sides, but hopefully now to provide more targets for us single-engine types.



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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    The only problem I have..and it's not an issue with the airspawns.. it's how the Carburated aircraft are portrayed in the game. If we are playing Raiders..and the ambient temperature is winter and cold..then I can understand a Carburated engine sputtering the way it does. If it's spring and summer and it's warm..a properly tuned Carburated engine shouldn't cough and sputter for 3-5 min. Air spawns are a good idea in this case.
    Ha! A few years ago I was trying to coax my ancient, carbureted back-to-basics Harley Softail into life on a particularly chilly morning. My buddies were watching my cursing efforts with quiet amusement astride their idling fuel-injected touring machines. As I fiddled once again with the fuel-enrichener I stammered an embarrassed apology for holding everyone up. My good buddy, Pete, reassured me there was no problem. After all, he was “just waiting for his heated handgrips to warm up”.


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  10. #68
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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Snapper, there are also rumours that Sp00k is having bicycle stabilizers fitted to his beau...can you confirm this?
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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Ha! A few years ago I was trying to coax my ancient, carbureted back-to-basics Harley Softail into life on a particularly chilly morning. My buddies were watching my cursing efforts with quiet amusement astride their idling fuel-injected touring machines. As I fiddled once again with the fuel-enrichener I stammered an embarrassed apology for holding everyone up. My good buddy, Pete, reassured me there was no problem. After all, he was “just waiting for his heated handgrips to warm up”.
    I drive a 1979 Trupmh Spitfire. Twin SU carbs. Still running with points in the ignition too... all as it came out of the factory.

    Pull out choke. Turn key, it fires as soon as the float bowls have fuel in. If its been sat a few days it might take a couple of turns to fire while the fuel pump is being turned over. But once it does its good to go right away.

    Also ride a ZX-7R. That has four carbs. Same thing there, it will fire up as soon as the float bowls are full... top tip on that is to put it in gear, clutch out and hit the starter.... the (electric in this case) fuel pump goes clickety click but the switch in the clutch lever wont allow power to the starter motor... that wasy you can fill all the floats bowls up without turning the engine over, then pop her out of gear and fire her up first hit.

    None of this though has anything at all to do with how fast either of them then warms up from that point on mind.

    The spit (cast iron block) warms up (because the engine is running with all that internal combustion goodness) just as fast as my wifes Virata (aluminium block I think). I know this because I get the benefit of the heat blown into my face on those cold morning at about the same time. 2 minutes after I have left home in both cases.

    BRRRRRRR.!

    Can't run the same experiment on the bike... as I myself stay cold whatever !... but I suspect it also warms up just as fast a a fuel injected GSXR. The 7 is good to go with no choke after about 60 seconds or so.

    My Mower heats up in about 10 seconds... though it's not as fast as it relys on me pushing it about.


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Snapper, there are also rumours that Sp00k is having bicycle stabilizers fitted to his beau...can you confirm this?
    I can neither confirm nor deny. But come airspawns or not, I am keeping the coloured streamers hanging from my wingtips and the big orange triangle flag that sits atop of my tail.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Ha! A few years ago I was trying to coax my ancient, carbureted back-to-basics Harley Softail into life on a particularly chilly morning. My buddies were watching my cursing efforts with quiet amusement astride their idling fuel-injected touring machines. As I fiddled once again with the fuel-enrichener I stammered an embarrassed apology for holding everyone up. My good buddy, Pete, reassured me there was no problem. After all, he was “just waiting for his heated handgrips to warm up”.
    I have a 67 Mustang fastback that sits most of the year. Holley 4 barrel. On a small block Ford. I can crank it up anytime, and like HS says as soon as the float bowls fill up it fires up. After a min or so..it will clean up and run and idle smooth. I know it's not a 1940s WWII aircraft..but it is Carburated..and doesn't takes forever to clean up..even after sitting for a long time. These aircraft were worked on and cared for religiously..and should have been tuned and running at close to max efficiency at all times. Lives depended on it. 5 min before the aircraft will even move seems way too long. If you want to make it run but not at max efficiency for 30-45 sec then I can get with that. I feel the fighter aircraft have it just about right.
    Cheers
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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    IIRC single engine fighters designated for Battle of Britain interception assignments were prepp’d differently than multi-engine bombers/fighter-bombers.

    Certainly frontline single engine fighters were indeed started up pre-dawn by the mechanics assigned to each fighter. They were warmed up, checked for leaks, misfires, rough running, etc. then shut down once they were thoroughly warmed up. Periodically as the morning wore on the aircraft would be restarted and warmed up/checked before getting shut down again. This way they would indeed be ready at a moment’s notice for a scramble. As the Battle of Britain wore on, many fighters/pilots/mechanics were re-assigned to inland airfields due to the forward airfields being battle-damaged and/or subject to raids. In these cases the pilots would fly their aircraft at dawn to forward satellite airfields to be more advantageously placed for anticipted scrambles.

    The big multi-engines were not kept at moment’s notice status by nature of their jobs of conducting offensive warfare against the enemy. Their missions were carefully planned and scheduled. Frequently these aircrew did their own startup, warmups, and system checks, including conducting pre-mission check flights. Here the Clod cold starts for Beaufighters and Blenheims are entirely realistic and authentic.

    My understanding that the “scramble mode” spawns found in the Full Mission Builder is problematic for online play with multiple players. As I understand it, the scramble spawn places the spawning aircraft at the foot of the runway. This can create a horrible ground traffic pile up situation as several spawning players literally crunch into each other in such a confined/high traffic volume area.

    We’ll see how the air spawns for the cold blooded beasts work as an alternative.


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  18. #73
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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Part of the problem is perspective.

    If you are warming up back at Eastchurch, it doesn't seem so long, and it gives you time to align your wingmen.

    If you are warming up under a dogfight at Hawkinge, you are probably counting the seconds, anticipating a straffer.

    The same thing would happen when someone would use Rearm/Refuel in the middle of a busy airfield. It took forever.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    The same thing would happen when someone would use Rearm/Refuel in the middle of a busy airfield. It took forever.
    Ha... Thats so true!


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    I have a 67 Mustang fastback
    Well then we need a new thread. "Show us your cars"

    Over to you Ribbs !


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    The artillery base on the Dunkirk map is perfect Beaufighter fodder, instead. Lots of single soft targets to take out, some easy, some difficult to spot and its tricky to attack the column on the street because of the trees. Doable with two Beaufighters, maybe even one, if your aim is better than mine
    Wanted to give it another go yesterday in the evening, but it seems the Beau disappeared form the map


    Historically correct, but still a pity.

    We then went there with two Blennies, my mate was pk-ed by flak before he could drop his bombs but I produced some smoke and even managed to return with perforated wings, dodging enemy planes, which was big fun.
    Someone else later finished the target.

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    Part of the problem is perspective.

    If you are warming up back at Eastchurch, it doesn't seem so long, and it gives you time to align your wingmen.

    If you are warming up under a dogfight at Hawkinge, you are probably counting the seconds, anticipating a straffer.

    The same thing would happen when someone would use Rearm/Refuel in the middle of a busy airfield. It took forever.
    “The perception of five minutes in time depends on which side of the bathroom door you’re on.” - I.P. Nitely


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    Wanted to give it another go yesterday in the evening, but it seems the Beau disappeared form the map


    Historically correct, but still a pity.

    We then went there with two Blennies, my mate was pk-ed by flak before he could drop his bombs but I produced some smoke and even managed to return with perforated wings, dodging enemy planes, which was big fun.
    Someone else later finished the target.
    Isnt that map one of Hans "don't mess with my stuff" Grubers?
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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Isnt that map one of Hans "don't mess with my stuff" Grubers?
    I don’t know. I do know that we are very grateful to him and other mapmakers who contribute their expertise and time totally gratis.


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    I have a 67 Mustang fastback that sits most of the year. Holley 4 barrel. On a small block Ford. I can crank it up anytime, and like HS says as soon as the float bowls fill up it fires up. After a min or so..it will clean up and run and idle smooth. I know it's not a 1940s WWII aircraft..but it is Carburated..and doesn't takes forever to clean up..even after sitting for a long time. These aircraft were worked on and cared for religiously..and should have been tuned and running at close to max efficiency at all times. Lives depended on it. 5 min before the aircraft will even move seems way too long. If you want to make it run but not at max efficiency for 30-45 sec then I can get with that. I feel the fighter aircraft have it just about right.
    Remember that aircraft engines use a different oiling system than a car... typically an aircraft engine is saturated with engine oil after shutdown to protect the components.... this takes more time to burn off.

    Just watch how long it takes a real Warbird to warm up from a cold start.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taaw-yfakXQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=400--DH00yI

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Re: warm-up time...my memories of carburated auto engines are that they could be quite fickle when cold. I had a Datsun 240Z (originally 2 x SUs, then 3 x Mikunis with cam and exhaust) that would readily start (choked when temps were cool) and settle into a smooth idle quickly. The car was drivable right away, but performance was poor until the engine was sufficiently warm. I would never have tried to really get on it until the temps were up. Considering that a/c take-off requires maximum engine performance (and reliability) (way more than we normally demand of an auto engine), seems that warm-up times would have been closely studied and adhered to. I suspect five minutes from cold start is realistic, depending on ambient temps, but understand that in our virtual world this warm-up time is annoying...part of the balance between realism and arcade.

    ~S~

    AKA Knutsac

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Knutsac View Post
    Re: warm-up time...my memories of carburated auto engines are that they could be quite fickle when cold. I had a Datsun 240Z (originally 2 x SUs, then 3 x Mikunis with cam and exhaust) that would readily start (choked when temps were cool) and settle into a smooth idle quickly. The car was drivable right away, but performance was poor until the engine was sufficiently warm. I would never have tried to really get on it until the temps were up. Considering that a/c take-off requires maximum engine performance (and reliability) (way more than we normally demand of an auto engine), seems that warm-up times would have been closely studied and adhered to.
    Ha good point.

    I dont rag the nuts of any vehicle until I'm up to full temp.

    I taxi out of the garage and drive off in a dignified manner as I quietly wish the other motorists the very best of good fortune and safe passage..



    Running a cold engine full tilt from the get go is going to shorten its life significantly and is a daft thing to do.

    Unless.is a 109.


    I have decided to assure myself that its because the luftwaffe keep their engines toasty warm night and day. And the RAF well... meh...! ... pfff.... I'm off down the pub. Pilot can warm that up when he needs it.


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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    I have been called a lot of things, purist has never been one of them. I fix things with a sledge hammer, if that do not work the thing I attempted to fix go out the window together with the sledgehammer. Then I buy a new thing, a sledge hammer and a window

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    Re: Lets discuss the Beau

    I like the historical tidbit Snapper. We're kind of using the Beau as an emergency all hands on deck suicide interceptor. Though I have enjoyed flying it strictly as a flak killer on ships and airfields.

    Yeh, clearances on aircraft engines are loose compared to automotive because of their wide thermal operating range and most of the damage happens on startup in either case. After sitting, radials have little to no oil on the upper cylinders, with the lower ones filled to the brim. Even after carefully clearing them of oil, the plugs still have to be cleaned up someway during startup. Inverted V engines have no oil to the crank without priming, others suffer on the cams, where the highest contact forces occur. I'd love to see a tech video on sleeve valve/Hercules engines as I've never had the opportunity to work or see one. Other than some grainy ones on youtube.
    Our radials ran on Aeroshell 80W oil, which in the winter, had the same viscosity as maple syrup and took longer to warm up. Radials have lower compression and even bigger clearances. They're easier to handprop too once the oil is cycled through after a lot of hand-prop flingin.

    We didn't get this studentized 985 running until after thirty minutes of cylinder clearing/priming. BTW my fingertips were out of the way when it fired!
    985_handprop13yearsago.jpg

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