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Thread: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    As I said, never worked for me (or my squad mates).
    If I move the throttle forward, whether slow and careful or quickly to 110% before six and a hlf minutes passed the engines will stop.
    I just checked the timing again, something has changed from 4.5.0 to 4.5.3. Anyway, the fastest time I can now start is 3 min. The simple way takes 3:15 min (OAT 13C), and with throttle pulsing I can get it to just under 3:00 min, but not worth the stress.

    I just ran some tests to see how fast it can start. Use the Night Fighter version for your testing, as the Engine Temperature Gauges work below 30C i.e. hover the mouse cursor over the gauge. (not to be confused with the Engine Oil temperature).

    So for me this is what I do now.

    1:- Chocks In/ Fuel ON / Prop 100%
    2:- Throttle 8%
    3:- Set Boost Cutout ON
    4:- all radiators closed. (may help depending on the wind direction)
    5:- Start engine.
    6:- @ approx 60 Secs set throttle to 10 %
    7:- @ approx 3:15 min promptly apply 110% throttles, it will cough a little, but usually it will run up in about 10 secs.

    Note: Indication that you can run up the engines to 110% on the night fighter are, Right Engine Temp at 24C, Left Engine Temp at 22C. ( I guess gauges are a not exact)

    For the Standard Beaufighter just use the clock. The Engine Temperature gauge does not read until above 30C.


    Give it a go with the Night Fighter version and see how fast you can get the engines up to temp. The engine temperature gauge is good feed back, so if you find faster way, let us know.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by gonk; Apr-24-2018 at 01:31.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post
    Im not going to get techo on it. I havent the skills. But noone is flying it. Aka its unwanted. What should have been a game changer, sits in the hangar with hay in the fuselage serving as a roost for the chickens. (chickens TFS 5.0 T.M.) I rarely if ever see one in the air. I cant even bring myself to get in it myself in its current state.

    I overheard a conversation between two pilots just the other day. It went something like this,

    pilot 1: “I sense great vulnerability. An aircraft crying out for love. An innocent orphan in the post-modern world.”

    pilot 2: “I see a parasite. A sky depraved miscreant who is seeking only to gratify its basest and most immediate urges.”

    pilot 1: “Its struggle is CloDs struggle. It lifts my spirit.”

    pilot 2: “It is a loathsome, offensive brute. Yet I can’t look away.”

    pilot 1: “It transcends time and space.”

    pilot 2: “It sickens me.”

    pilot 1 “I love it.”

    pilot 2: “Me too.”
    Hey Sp00k,

    As a heavy fighter flyer i feel your pain and agree it would be great to see more online Beaus even if they are a real pest to -110s. But then i ask myself why havent i flown it much?

    I flew it a few times in the beta but it didnt grab me like the -110 has/does. I think its due to the -110 having a rear gun (rear gunnery while flying backwards is fun), bombs (so it can do more than just strafing) and great visibility out of the glasshouse (i found the Beaus view a tad restrictive). Althought the -110 can take off quickly i usually take around 3-5 mins by the time i set up stuff in the cockpit and do my route planning with compass etc. so for me the take off time prob wouldnt be an issue. I think...

    Im not sure if bombs and a rear gun will ever be introduced to the Beau - if they were do you think that might increase some interest in flying it online?

    Ezzie

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    I certainly love the Beau (more than any other plane at the moment) and fly it regularly.

    In my humble opinion it is not so much the warm-up time, that keeps people from using it, but the lack of managable targets. Strafing is a lot of fun but you need to fly to a target very often or with quite a number of Beaus to take it out. And only really soft targets like infantry columns or camps, aifields, ships or fuel depots cannot be destroyed.

    If you manage to intercept an AI bomber raid (despite the warm-up and poor climbing) the Beau is deadly - unless there is an escort. One single 109 is enough to spoil the fun.

    So yes: I do think that bombs (or torpedoes ... droooool) and a rear gunner would greatly add to its attractivity.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Bombs and a rear gun will no doubt find favour with many. Personally, I like it how it is in that department. The Hurri FB does my bombing for me. What attracts me to the Beau’s current state of character is that you have to think and fly differently to any other plane in there to survive. It has its own unique style of play, of attack, evade and uses when in company with other aircraft in an attack. The presence of an observer adds to its individuality in the game.

    Escorting is unwise if you fly it like any other fighter. Suprise and speed is its only advantage when attacking the enemy or their fields. If I were to put anything on it, I would choose torpedo’s and give it a special support role in attacks on shipping.

    I think the current start up time does it a disservice and indoing so, acts against the very reason it was brought into the game. 4.3 had it right. We still waited for warm up but it was bearable and didn’t make you gun shy from stepping into it. That will never change if the Beau remains as it is now and I think that will be a great loss to the potential for improvisation in game play.

    If/when that gets fixed, I vow not to campaign against anyone putting a rear gun in their too
    Last edited by SIA_Sp00k; Apr-24-2018 at 07:03.
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post
    Bombs and a rear gun will no doubt find favour with many. Personally, I like it how it is in that department. The Hurri FB does my bombing for me. What attracts me to the Beau’s current state of character is that you have to think and fly differently to any other plane in there to survive. It has its own unique style of play, of attack, evade and uses when in company with other aircraft in an attack. The presence of an observer adds to its individuality in the game.

    Escorting is unwise if you fly it like any other fighter. Suprise and speed is its only advantage when attacking the enemy or their fields. If I were to put anything on it, I would choose torpedo’s and give it a special support role in attacks on shipping.

    I think the current start up time does it a disservice and indoing so, acts against the very reason it was brought into the game. 4.3 had it right. We still waited for warm up but it was bearable and didn’t make you gun shy from stepping into it. That will never change if the Beau remains as it is now and I think that will be a great loss to the potential for improvisation in game play.

    If/when that gets fixed, I vow not to campaign against anyone putting a rear gun in their too
    Why don’t you use the airspawns? We created them specifically on your input.


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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Why don’t you use the airspawns? We created them specifically on your input.
    The airspawns are so far back it takes longer to reach the front than if you warm it up on the field!

    As the airspawn is a remedy to the warm up problem there would be no real issue with having them at 1000ft on second line bases like Cantebury rather than all the way back round Biggin and suchlike!

    I'm flying the Beau for a bit to try and drum up a bit of interest, it's a real handful but you can fight it, I had Pro in the back last night and we got 4.7 kills in it but to be honest it's a sitting duck, the notion of using it's speed to evade is not bearing up as just about every 109 we meet is a B model and they just run you down before you even get past 280mph as it accelerates so slowly, it's got potential but it needs more work, getting it up to max speed for instance seems rather variable and takes ages so your down before you can use that speed, if you can get it up to 304mph that is!

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    I certainly love the Beau (more than any other plane at the moment) and fly it regularly.

    In my humble opinion it is not so much the warm-up time, that keeps people from using it, but the lack of managable targets. Strafing is a lot of fun but you need to fly to a target very often or with quite a number of Beaus to take it out. And only really soft targets like infantry columns or camps, aifields, ships or fuel depots cannot be destroyed.

    If you manage to intercept an AI bomber raid (despite the warm-up and poor climbing) the Beau is deadly - unless there is an escort. One single 109 is enough to spoil the fun.

    So yes: I do think that bombs (or torpedoes ... droooool) and a rear gunner would greatly add to its attractivity.

    From my perspective as a Blue flyer the Beau is by far the best RAF plane for shooting down bombers. You can do it with a Spit or Hurri but you need lots of ammo and any hit to your engine sends you home. In a scenario where the bombers must be stopped the Beau is invaluable. Let me know if there is any interest in that kind of mission, I'm working on a single player one that could be MP if people want it.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    I considered that when putting them in, Gromit. Unfortunately, in the case of putting them up close, they will get abused and complaints will come from the other side. Imagine attacking Canterbury, some guy spots you at Pegwel bay, you deal with it, then he respawns canterbury in the air and you have contested airspace as someone appears imedietly and repeatedly. Its a tough one, this. Certainly form a builders perspective. Warm-up times either need to decrease or better yet, someday we need the option to spawn warmed a/c.


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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Airspawns are good and I appreciate the effort in putting them in. I imagine it was the subject of some discussion behind closed doors

    I have used them but as stated above, they are a long way from the front. Also, using them I feel a little cheap. Like my lipstick has spread passed the confines of my mouth and I look like a grotesque male Joker in Batman. (its ok to wear lipstick! Matt Damon does it!) Its like sitting in a car with everyone else and having to put a cushion under your bum to see out the window like the big people. It feels like I overstuffed the tissues down the front of my pants to impress a girl and left one hanging out through the zipper. Otherwise, I like them just fine

    Regarding speed. It will never let you run away without substantial energy behind you. Hence its a low attack counting on suprise or a high attack with lots of E. It will move along nicely if you have the right angle of attack and it coincides with your escape vector.
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Freya View Post
    I considered that when putting them in, Gromit. Unfortunately, in the case of putting them up close, they will get abused and complaints will come from the other side. Imagine attacking Canterbury, some guy spots you at Pegwel bay, you deal with it, then he respawns canterbury in the air and you have contested airspace as someone appears imedietly and repeatedly. Its a tough one, this. Certainly form a builders perspective. Warm-up times either need to decrease or better yet, someday we need the option to spawn warmed a/c.

    It's a compromise until the cooling coding is improved, You are right it could be abused, which is why I suggested a second line base rather than front line, but as you say the real issue is the cooling problem, it does cause complaints, for example if you have a dogfight at French point and a blue pilot is shot down , he just jumps in another 109 starts up and zoom back into the fight, if the situation is reversed and the fight is at dover the red pilot shot down then sits on the field warming up so it's swings and roundabouts really!

    Never understood why the DB and RR engines have completely different temp models, seems complication for complications sake!

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post
    Airspawns are good and I appreciate the effort in putting them in. I imagine it was the subject of some discussion behind closed doors

    I have used them but as stated above, they are a long way from the front. Also, using them I feel a little cheap. Like my lipstick has spread passed the confines of my mouth and I look like a grotesque male Joker in Batman. (its ok to wear lipstick! Matt Damon does it!) Its like sitting in a car with everyone else and having to put a cushion under your bum to see out the window like the big people. It feels like I overstuffed the tissues down the front of my pants to impress a girl and left one hanging out through the zipper. Otherwise, I like them just fine

    Regarding speed. It will never let you run away without substantial energy behind you. Hence its a low attack counting on suprise or a high attack with lots of E. It will move along nicely if you have the right angle of attack and it coincides with your escape vector.
    Have you noticed it gets up to 290mph eventually but getting the last 10mph or so requires much fiddling and a slightly nose down attitude which takes ages, whereas most aircraft can be pushed up to their limit and held there quite quickly?

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    The settings I use on the Beau get it up to 305 mph IAS on the deck quite quickly (for a multi-engine):

    Throttles 110%
    Props 84%
    Rads 40%

    In the interests of authenticity, what was the actual warm up time for period Beaufighters? Was it less than 6 minutes 30 seconds? The reason I ask is that at the airshows I’ve attended the warmup times for all the WW2 aircraft seem to take AGES. Even during the BoB the Beaufighters were never used for interception work, but for offensive raids AFAIK. The groundcrews would surely have been careful to ensure the Beau (and Blennie) engines were properly warmed up before their assigned missions.

    I had asked our mapmakers not to place the airspawn locations too close to frontline airfields (including Canterbury) to reduce the chances of 109’s camping above the airspawn points. Crossing the Channel on the deck at 305 mph in the combat zone between Manston/Calais and Dungeness/Wissant is suicide. Easy pickings for any in-transit 109 or 110 diving down from just a few angels. As others have mentioned, the Beaufighter’s two main assets (other than its 4x20mm) is speed AND surprise. Egress from Kent either on the deck or in a climb must be to the South from Hastings (or further) to cross over between Boulogne and LeTouquet or from the Thames Estuary to cross over east of Dunkirk. Once over Occupied France the main danger is flak from airfields, although hedgehopping at 300+ mph is pretty good at keeping ahead of their aim. Any dot you see ahead of you becomes your prey, again speed and surprise being your key assets.

    I’ve had some luck dogfighting against 109’s in the company of one (or more) Beaufighters by employing a fashion of Thatch Weave to cover each other’s tails and nail an unwary 109 pilot in a hail of 20mm. But if I’m alone an encounter with a skilled 109 pilot at any altitude is apt to ruin my day. Hence our decision to airspawn Beaufighters as raiders and not interceptors.


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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Any airshow I have been to the aircraft are idling for at least ten mins before they run them up?

    But this is a game and it's relative to the fact the opposition can just start and go which obviously causes some discussion, we are stuck with this for now though so no amount of complaining will change that, it is what it is!

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    Any airshow I have been to the aircraft are idling for at least ten mins before they run them up?

    But this is a game and it's relative to the fact the opposition can just start and go which obviously causes some discussion, we are stuck with this for now though so no amount of complaining will change that, it is what it is!
    a game?

    a GAME?!

    Its everything...


    Reminds me of that Monty Python string sketch.




    Wapcaplet: ONLY STRING?! It's everything! It's...it's waterproof!

    Simpson: No it isn't!

    W: All right, it's water resistant then!

    S: It isn't!

    W: All right, it's water absorbent! It's...Super Absorbent String! 'ABSORB WATER TODAY WITH SIMPSON'S INDIVIDUAL WATER ABSORB-A-TEX STRINGETTES! AWAY WITH FLOODS!'

    S: You just said it was waterproof!

    W: 'AWAY WITH THE DULL DRUDGERY OF WORKADAY TIDAL WAVES! USE SIMPSON'S INDIVIDUAL FLOOD PREVENTERS!'

    S: You're mad!
    Last edited by ATAG_Highseas; Apr-24-2018 at 11:21.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post

    In the interests of authenticity, what was the actual warm up time for period Beaufighters?
    The AP1721A (2nd Edition) Pilots Notes for Beaufighter Marks 1C & 1F Hercules III or XI engines, states that the minimum oil temp for take off as 5 degrees centigrade.

    Maximum Cylinder Head temp at start of take off as 230 degrees centigrade.

    I can find nothing under Part II-Handling that states a set time for engine warm up. Climactic conditions would no doubt have an affect on this?

    I have recently been testing to see if once both engines on the Beaufighter have started and running then select each engine individually to warm them up. WIP.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by gonk View Post
    I just checked the timing again, something has changed from 4.5.0 to 4.5.3. Anyway, the fastest time I can now start is 3 min. The simple way takes 3:15 min (OAT 13C), and with throttle pulsing I can get it to just under 3:00 min, but not worth the stress.

    I just ran some tests to see how fast it can start. Use the Night Fighter version for your testing, as the Engine Temperature Gauges work below 30C i.e. hover the mouse cursor over the gauge. (not to be confused with the Engine Oil temperature).

    So for me this is what I do now.

    1:- Chocks In/ Fuel ON / Prop 100%
    2:- Throttle 8%
    3:- Set Boost Cutout ON
    4:- all radiators closed. (may help depending on the wind direction)
    5:- Start engine.
    6:- @ approx 60 Secs set throttle to 10 %
    7:- @ approx 3:15 min promptly apply 110% throttles, it will cough a little, but usually it will run up in about 10 secs.

    Note: Indication that you can run up the engines to 110% on the night fighter are, Right Engine Temp at 24C, Left Engine Temp at 22C. ( I guess gauges are a not exact)

    For the Standard Beaufighter just use the clock. The Engine Temperature gauge does not read until above 30C.


    Give it a go with the Night Fighter version and see how fast you can get the engines up to temp. The engine temperature gauge is good feed back, so if you find faster way, let us know.

    Thanks,
    Just tried your steps 1 - 7 and stopwatched it. It works.


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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    Any airshow I have been to the aircraft are idling for at least ten mins before they run them up?

    But this is a game and it's relative to the fact the opposition can just start and go which obviously causes some discussion, we are stuck with this for now though so no amount of complaining will change that, it is what it is!
    We hope at some point to implement a couple changes:

    - Pre-warmed engines

    - More realistic warm-up times for fuel injected types. (longer times)

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Just out of interest, how long would warmup more realistically be for the direct injection type engines?

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rel4y View Post
    Just out of interest, how long would warmup more realistically be for the direct injection type engines?
    I think 4 minutes would be safe to go rel4y..They would be very careful here with this 109. There arre cuts in the video so I imagine he was out on the runway for a minute or two but he's not doing an alarm start either



    Fast



    Faster

    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; Apr-24-2018 at 19:34.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rel4y View Post
    Just out of interest, how long would warmup more realistically be for the direct injection type engines?
    30 minutes or so should do it



    EDIT

    Damn! Rich beat me to it !!

    and at a considerably lower price...
    Last edited by ATAG_Highseas; Apr-24-2018 at 19:17.

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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    lol

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  30. #112
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Oskar View Post
    From my perspective as a Blue flyer the Beau is by far the best RAF plane for shooting down bombers. You can do it with a Spit or Hurri but you need lots of ammo and any hit to your engine sends you home. In a scenario where the bombers must be stopped the Beau is invaluable. Let me know if there is any interest in that kind of mission, I'm working on a single player one that could be MP if people want it.
    Oskar I would love some missions! Especially nightfighter missions. I've been enjoying the nightfighter SP custom mission. Got 3 in a row with radar and made it back. No clouds makes it more challenging, and for some reason make the awful searchlights look better. It's tricky too as the bombers start to jink when you get in visual range.

    Beaufighter startup: 2 minutes for me (edit: 2:20+ on my test ) just closing the rads, but I've been getting away with it on the nightfighter, which might be modeled different. I do like the fact that the antennas do not produce drag.

    As for warmups, I've worked with both radials and inline (maybe ten different engines...no sleeve valve ones though), and we always wait for the green. When it's cooler outside it takes forever. You could get away with running them hard, but I always see the engines in-game as cold and worn out with crappy fuel. I've seen a lot of airshow pilots run their engines very poorly as well, but there are so many variables to the real thing that I can go with whatever the devs decide. It's all good.

    Another idea to make things worse (better!) too would be to limit the warmup time due to plug fouling (unless cleared with leaning), or with the Spits, cooking the engine on the ground.

    My Beaufighter max settings are:
    110% throttle
    100% prop
    34% rads continuous on the deck (no less)
    12% fuel = 20 minutes + reserve
    Last edited by 69th_Zeb; Apr-25-2018 at 00:07. Reason: Video

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Zeb View Post
    Oskar I would love some missions! Especially nightfighter missions. I've been enjoying the nightfighter SP custom mission. Got 3 in a row with radar and made it back. No clouds makes it more challenging, and for some reason make the awful searchlights look better. It's tricky too as the bombers start to jink when you get in visual range.

    Beaufighter startup: 2 minutes for me just closing the rads, but I've been getting away with it on the nightfighter, which might be modeled different. I do like the fact that the antennas do not produce drag.

    As for warmups, I've worked with both radials and inline (maybe ten different engines), and we always wait for the green. When it's cooler outside it takes forever. You could get away with running them hard, but I always see the engines in-game as cold and worn out with crappy fuel. I've seen a lot of airshow pilots run their engines very poorly as well, but there are so many variables to the real thing that I can go with whatever the devs decide. It's all good.

    My Beaufighter max settings are:
    110% throttle
    100% prop
    34% rads continuous on the deck (no less)
    12% fuel = 20 minutes + reserve
    Sorry to disappoint you... but the antennas do produce drag... the nightfighter version is slower than the dayfighter.

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  33. #114
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Nice. Not at all disappointed. Was still indicating 300, but I guess that explains it was slightly slower. I'll still fly antennae and all.

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  35. #115
    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by gonk View Post
    1:- Chocks In/ Fuel ON / Prop 100%
    2:- Throttle 8%
    3:- Set Boost Cutout ON
    4:- all radiators closed. (may help depending on the wind direction)
    5:- Start engine.
    6:- @ approx 60 Secs set throttle to 10 %
    7:- @ approx 3:15 min promptly apply 110% throttles, it will cough a little, but usually it will run up in about 10 secs.

    Thanks,
    We tested this yesterday in the evening and it worked just fine.
    Thanks!

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  37. #116
    Supporting Member Gromit's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rel4y View Post
    Just out of interest, how long would warmup more realistically be for the direct injection type engines?
    Same as carburettor ones, the fuel delivery makes no difference to the time it takes oil, water and aluminium to reach operating temperature!

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  39. #117
    Admin ATAG_Snapper's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    Any airshow I have been to the aircraft are idling for at least ten mins before they run them up?

    But this is a game and it's relative to the fact the opposition can just start and go which obviously causes some discussion, we are stuck with this for now though so no amount of complaining will change that, it is what it is!
    Re airspawn locations: We’re taking another look at it, based on your input.


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  40. #118
    Supporting Member IIJG27Rich's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Ask one of the modern pilots like Rick Volker.

  41. #119
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    Boi, i am back, and how i am back Hello boys, this is lookin good, cant wait :>

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  43. #120
    Supporting Member Werwolf's Avatar
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    Re: TFS Update 03/23/2018: Tobruk Discussion

    May I suggest you give away a string bag with the purchase of TF 5.0?

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