How does one darken a colour in CoD and keep colour type same ?

[BOBC]

Hi,
I am struggling on the simple art of darkening a colour, as when I darken it even slightly it goes a different hue.
see attached results of darkening RLM71, also the crazy thing that happened to RLM70 when reflown with test areas alongside.

Please tel me, how does one simply darken a colour and have it stay that colour but just be that much darker as viewed just prior in photoshop ?

Has CoD a limited colour range, why doesnt it display colours as seen ? One cannot create a colour on screen and expect to see it in flight. skins look different to the screen capture images that come with them from the skinner.

To not be able to darken a colour without it going a different hue though is doing my head in !

ICC profile by the way none, as per skins received.

help !!!

darkening RLM71.jpg

darkening RLM70.jpg

darkening RLM71 view2.jpg
BOBC

[uranor]

Hi,
I am struggling on the simple art of darkening a colour, as when I darken it even slightly it goes a different hue.
see attached results of darkening RLM71, also the crazy thing that happened to RLM70 when reflown with test areas alongside.

Please tel me, how does one simply darken a colour and have it stay that colour but just be that much darker as viewed just prior in photoshop ?

Has CAD a limited colour range, why doesnt it display colours as seen ? One cannot create a colour on screen and expect to see it in flight. skins look different to the screen capture images that come with them from the skinner.

To not be able to darken a colour without it going a different hue though is doing my head in !

ICC profile by the way none, as per skins received.

help !!!

darkening RLM71.jpg

darkening RLM70.jpg

darkening RLM71 view2.jpg
BOBC

Disclaimer: not a digital artist. However, I dabble with colors and imaging enough to at least give you some hints.


Firstly, color representation: there are a number of methods: RGB (engineers like that), CMYK (printing industry likes that), HSV (many artists like that), wavelength and spectral decomposition (Physicists like that). The latter is the ultimate objective truth.

Secondly, you must define what darkening means. Let's go with "less intensity." The Physicist will say that dark is the absence of light, thus fewer photons, results in "more dark." If you do not want to change the hue (i.e. the spectral composition) then one must maintain the ratio of the frequencies that make that particular hue.
For this purpose, in digital art, you will notice that HSV (Hue, Saturation, Value) is the preferred approach: in theory, you should just decrease Value and you are done: "Value" is the intensity; so less Value should be darker without changing the hue.

Not so fast, unfortunately. Your graphic card (and mine too) knows nothing about the conversion between HSV and RGB (OK, maybe a little, if the programmers bothered, but not much). It only knows about RGB (because your monitor also speaks RGB). Such conversion is not trivial. People write research articles about it.
What this means, is that the conversion introduces "imperfections." An HSV color is represented with a close-relative RGB color, according to some mapping algorithm. So, a slight hue change is possible, indeed likely, when the color is rendered on the screen.

To this, one must add the matter of perception: we do not see all colors with the same "intensity" as equally bright. There is an intentional skew introduced by our brain: we are more sensitive in the green-yellow region because of evolution (that happens to be the maximum emission wavelength of our Sun). So, a Red light source with intensity 100 (say it is a trillion photons, to assign a "random" number) is not perceived as bright as a green intensity of 100 (still a trillion photons, different wavelength).

There is yet another issue: we have different kind of sensitivity to intensity and to color. Have you ever heard the saying "At night, all cats are gray"? That is actually true: our night vision (low light vision) cells, the rods, are not sensitive to color. So, when something becomes darker, we also loose the ability to perceive color and it appears desaturated (tends to appear gray).

The conclusion of the non-digital-artist is that you have to experiment tweaking your sliders to obtain the effect that appears right to you. I would start with going into an HSV representation of the color; then reduce value, then tweak saturation and to the minimum possible, hue, to get the color you want.

Hope it helps some.

~Uranor

[varrattu]

Please choose sRGB color space when editing templates and calibrate your display at sRGB's 6500K (D65). Prepare templates that are gamma 2.2-corrected.

il2CoD is just a WW2 flight sim, not a Photoshop-AdobeRGB Simulator.


~V~

Addendum:

il2CoD RLM 65 - RGB (157,169,175) - HSL(200°, 10%, 65%) > HSV (200°, 10%, 69%)
il2CoD RLM 70 - RGB (50, 51, 46) - HSL (72°, 5%, 19%) > HSV (72°, 10%, 20%)
il2CoD RLM 71 - RGB (61, 64 , 50) - HSL (73°, 12%, 22%) > HSV (73°, 22%, 25%) (revised 05.04.2017)

[uranor]

Please choose sRGB color space when editing templates and calibrate your display at sRGB's 6500K (D65). Prepare templates that are gamma 2.2-corrected.

il2CoD is just a WW2 flight sim, not a Photoshop-AdobeRGB Simulator.


~V~

Addendum:

il2CoD RLM 65 - R157, G169, B175
il2CoD RLM 70 - R50, G51, B46
il2CoD RLM 71 - R52, G52 , B41

Absolutely; however the question was "how to darken a color." So, perhaps, go to HSV temporarily, lower value, tweak saturation and go back to the calibrated RGB scale you recommended?

See also this link, if it helps.
~Uranor

[BOBC]

Hi,
Uranor, HueSaturationValue you say and adjust value, in fact that is what I was doing so glad to know I was doing correct. Pshop calls it Hue Saturation Lightness but its the same thing.
I abbreviate that to hsl so hsl 0 0 -5 means value given -5 it makes it darker.

I have in fact been in the world of colour and graphics and RGB and calibrated screens etc, Munsell, methuen, etc etc, since windows 3.1 and before then was into colour and Luft and RAF.

As such the HSL option, photoshop call value 'LIGHTNESS' was my obvious choice and I was right.

So why then when I take the RLM71 used in CheckMySix 4D+DC skin and darken it by Hue 0 saturation 0 value -5 (my hsl figure in the pics) and fly it , do I get not a darker version of the original RLM71 but a different hue.

Its that which I am stumped on.

Varrattu,
Not sure why photoshop is getting the blame for CoD colour handling.

Photoshop simply carries out operations on RGB values, using Hue Saturation value(lightness) in pshop and darkening a colour by adjusting value does not mean that the crazy results of colour changes in CoD are attributable to photoshop, not when saved with no ICC profile at all.

I will however redo them and save as sRGB., and test again but I dont expect any change, I hope I am wrong.
I dont need to alter monitor which is Eizo calibrated to AdobeRGB1998 in this case as a darker colour using the value slider is a darker colour, whatever monitor I look at it on., not a change of hue.
I expected 5% darker CM6s RLM71 to be 5% darker when flown., I darkened it using maths, not visually using monitor.
What I will do is create a test skin, using hsV and see if folk when they fly it see shades of green or the colours I see.

To say CoD is not a photoshop sim is not appropriate, may as well say its not a gimp sim, or a MSpaint sim, they all carry out digital changes. any photo editing prog would create the same rgb values for a colour that was darkened in Hue Sat Value by 0 0 -5.

That they are all wrong and CoD is right in its changing of the actual colour hue from green to brown is difficult to accept.

Like a scale modeler saying the red arrows have just flown past but they got the shade of red wrong on the aircraft.

Ref skins must have sRGB profile, the CM6 4F+DC skin as well as those I looked at last night open had no embedded profile, I just opened up a Fritz Wolf skin , also one from Boo, and one from CheckMySix, though I see the Boo is originating CM6 anyway.

here is proof.

NoProfileSkins.jpg

and here is the RGB mixes you posted for 70 71 65 flown on CM6s 4D+DC which was giving me the nearest colours to 70 and 71 of Merrick and my research that I had found to date.
I just needs for my skins a darker 71 and a bit darker 70. I take my hat off to CM6 for managing to get that far with such quirkiness of CoD turning a slightly darkened green into brown !

below then is the result of a CM6 skin of Ju88 4D+DC with your supplied CoD 70 71 65 RGB values and this CM6 skin was saved as sRGB. gave me the same 70 71 stbd wing as his original no ICC profile skin.

Varrattu forum CoD 70 71 65 flown with CM6 4D+DC sRGB.jpg

The CoD 70 and 71....oh dear, they in fact look the same, they were very similar in Photoshop running with sRGB colourspace, (yes I have saved my AdobeRGB colour space and altered that to sRGB, both were/are gamma 2.2 by the way) now I can switch between the two. I must remember to do so before doing non CoD work else oh S*&t !!!

Note they dont give RLM70 and 71, CM6 does. Note also the 65 is desaturated and lacking the blue my skin has, which is a perfect match to Merrick65 given the nuances of CoD., and my skin is less blue than others I have flown.

I was hopeful there for a moment that I might have a darker rlm71 but alas not to be.

so darkening a colour is done using HSV, well I am doing so, but faced with what CoD then does, I am no better for it. unless saving as sRGB makes the world of difference. I dont think it will but I will test and report back.

BOBC

[varrattu]

Sorry for the inconvenience.

I doublechecked il2CoD-RLM71-Dunkelgrün, the true values are R61, G64, B50 > H73° S12.3%, L22.4%

iL2CoD RLM70 - RGB (50, 51, 46)
RGB to HSL/HSV conversion: HSL (72°, 5%, 19%) / HSV (72°, 10%, 20%)
HSL (0, 0, -5) to RGB conversion: HSL (72°, 5%, 14%) > RGB (37, 37, 34)
HSV (0, 0, -5) to RGB conversion: HSV (72°, 10%, 15%) > RGB (37, 38, 34)

iL2CoD RLM71 - RGB (61, 64, 50)
RGB to HSL conversion: HSL (73°, 12%, , 22%) / HSV (73°, 22%, 25%)
HSL (0, 0, -5) to RGB conversion : HSL (73°, 12%, 17%) > RGB (47, 50, 39)
HSV (0, 0, -5) to RGB conversion: HSV (73°, 22%, 20%) > RGB (49, 51, 40)

~V~

[BOBC]

Hi,
reporting back with testing the darkening process in all sRGB environment now.
Photoshop colour settings now sRGB (still 2.2 gammas as before)
Eizo Monitor profile target created for sRGB via talk through by them and running sRGB during colour test creation and also flight.

RLM71 sampled from pure area of 4D+DC Ju88 by Checkmysix, his original skin download.

Apply Hue Saturation Lightness control (lightness is Pshop version of Value, guess they felt it was more 'understandable as it does affect lightness !)

First panel original, 2nd given hsl 0 0 -5, 3rd given hsl 0 0 -10, 4th given 0 0 -15, 5th given 0 0 -20

place on stbd wing and fly, selecting skin both in FMB object Browser and also Plane option as else they can differ.

Did it make a difference, have we now got 5 progressive darker shades of rlm71, NO !
see attachment below.
compare test 4as RLM71 on 4D+DC use sRGB sRGBEizo.jpg

and here is the one flown in AdobeRGB monitor profile and saved without any ICC profile.
darkening RLM71 view2.jpg

no real difference, still getting a hue change when things should just go a tad darker.

damn !!!

here is the skin I flew. One can see the progressive darker shades of RLM71 sampled from the skins port wing., from a clean area between rivets.
I also placed the test panels on the underside in-case I had 'cleaner' panels to sample results from, as the 'verdigris' is appalling to work with.

test RLM71 hsl 4D+DC_II.KG30 CM6 ICC_ sRGB.jpg

Goes into Ju88A1 folder .
I place it into that folder in C drive in the 1C softclub address.

So how is it for you fellow flyers, do you get my results. Flying a course in sunlight 12:00 hrs, mis as attached here.
TestCamoColoursJu88A1 30deg.zip

so how does one darken a green such as RLM71 ?

BOBC

[KeefyBoy]

Hi BOBC
Sorry to see your having so much trouble getting the rlm 70/71/65 to show
with the correct hue.
I have not got a clue when it comes to this but if you want I can send you over the hex notification(Gimp HSV) for rlm 70/71/65 or a pure skin without all the lines
and weathering etc so you can colour pick for yourself.
I use a cheap Dell monitor and Gimp for what its worth.
Regards
Keith(aka Checkmysix)

[BOBC]

Hi BOBC
Sorry to see your having so much trouble getting the rlm 70/71/65 to show
with the correct hue.
I have not got a clue when it comes to this but if you want I can send you over the hex notification(Gimp HSV) for rlm 70/71/65 or a pure skin without all the lines
and weathering etc so you can colour pick for yourself.
I use a cheap Dell monitor and Gimp for what its worth.
Regards
Keith(aka Checkmysix)

Hi KeefyBoy
I am trying to figure out how you managed to get past the quirky way CoD is fed a colour and spits out something different !
Did you spend ages trying different shades to get your lovely 70/71 or did you find a chart giving skin mixes, as its no use taking true colours for 70 71 as CoD skin doesnt work with 'end result'. Its almost as if CoD has a set number of colours it uses and anything that falls outside gets tipped into the nearest hue, like a limited palette.

Your 4D+DC is the best for 70 and 71 found so far, if only I can darken the 70 just a bit and make the 71 less contrast by darkening a bit more.
I have used the dk green of MTaff 602 spit tonight and that is almost too dark, no contrast on the original 70 skin. I now need to darken 70 a bit, so maybe the method below might bear fruit.

I fly a copy of 4D+DC I had opened into Pshop when using AdobeRGB and saved as such, though I am sure I save all as no ICC, as they open from you as no ICC, and it has a better 70 and 71 when flown, a happy accident, a bit more of the darkness and strength of the real 70, a tad more blue like an ivy leaf.

here are the results so far, see how the best is the non original 4D+DC (compared to my references especially Merrick 1938 chart )
Varrattu... tried the revised rlm71 but not as good as existing colours I have, they are more brown and wider in contrast, 71 quite pale.
compare Ju88 RLM70 71 pairings ob down sRGB crop_.jpg
Maybe one way of enhancing colour is then to open as AdobeRGB1998, then save as no ICC !!!

Even now I am in sRGB colour space and sRGB monitor calibration (and the colours are more muted, give me (AdobeRGB any day !) I cannot darken a colour and get to see that colour darken in flight.

Whatever you have I will take !
PM me and we can do comms again there .
part of the battle is when one flies a colour, there is so much crap and verdigris going on over the skins that its tricky to sample the part that is the colour you've just created !
One can sample a wider area but thats pulling in colours that are not the result of the colour just being tested.

To get at your pure colour for 70 and 71 before all the subtle pixel variations occur over it would be great.

BOBC

[KeefyBoy]

Hi KeefyBoy
I am trying to figure out how you managed to get past the quirky way CoD is fed a colour and spits out something different !
Did you spend ages trying different shades to get your lovely 70/71 or did you find a chart giving skin mixes, as its no use taking true colours for 70 71 as CoD skin doesnt work with 'end result'. Its almost as if CoD has a set number of colours it uses and anything that falls outside gets tipped into the nearest hue, like a limited palette.

Your 4D+DC is the best for 70 and 71 found so far, if only I can darken the 70 just a bit and make the 71 less contrast by darkening a bit more.
I have used the dk green of MTaff 602 spit tonight and that is almost too dark, no contrast on the original 70 skin. I now need to darken 70 a bit, so maybe the method below might bear fruit.

I fly a copy of 4D+DC I had opened into Pshop when using AdobeRGB and saved as such, though I am sure I save all as no ICC, as they open from you as no ICC, and it has a better 70 and 71 when flown, a happy accident, a bit more of the darkness and strength of the real 70, a tad more blue like an ivy leaf.

here are the results so far, see how the best is the non original 4D+DC (compared to my references especially Merrick 1938 chart )
Varrattu... tried the revised rlm71 but not as good as existing colours I have, they are more brown and wider in contrast, 71 quite pale.
compare Ju88 RLM70 71 pairings ob down sRGB crop_.jpg
Maybe one way of enhancing colour is then to open as AdobeRGB1998, then save as no ICC !!!

Even now I am in sRGB colour space and sRGB monitor calibration (and the colours are more muted, give me (AdobeRGB any day !) I cannot darken a colour and get to see that colour darken in flight.

Whatever you have I will take !
PM me and we can do comms again there .
part of the battle is when one flies a colour, there is so much crap and verdigris going on over the skins that its tricky to sample the part that is the colour you've just created !
One can sample a wider area but thats pulling in colours that are not the result of the colour just being tested.

To get at your pure colour for 70 and 71 before all the subtle pixel variations occur over it would be great.

BOBC

Hi BOBC
When I created my templates which have the rlm 70/71/65 ie. Ju-88,Do-17,He-111 etc I colour picked the Simmerspaintshop paint chart (now defunct) and when applied to the template I would just slightly desaturate and lighten,I had no reference pix so would just Eyeball it till I thought it looked right,that was it nothing technical at all.
if I wanted to lighten or darken a specific colour I would just make gradual adjustments in the colour selection dialogue and eyeballing it till I was happy with it.
As I have stated I am clueless when it comes to this and you have so much knowledge in relation to the RLM colour references but from what I have read sRGB is better than
AdobeRGB for more consistent and accurate results.https://kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm
As you are using Photoshop does this automatically use AdobeRGB and if You are using an sRGB monitor will they conflict?
I use Gimp,give it a try and see if there is any difference its free and you have nothing to loose by trying.
Here is the My Template for Ju-88 all the rlm colours are individual layers so you play around with each as you wish.http://www.mediafire.com/file/y33uqq...otoShop%5D.rar
I also found this over at IL2 Sturmovik website https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...-71-confusion/
Hope this helps in some way but as I said I am a lay person and just shooting in the dark here.
Good Luck
Keith

[BOBC]

Hi BOBC
When I created my templates which have the rlm 70/71/65 ie. Ju-88,Do-17,He-111 etc I colour picked the Simmerspaintshop paint chart (now defunct) and when applied to the template I would just slightly desaturate and lighten,I had no reference pix so would just Eyeball it till I thought it looked right,that was it nothing technical at all.
if I wanted to lighten or darken a specific colour I would just make gradual adjustments in the colour selection dialogue and eyeballing it till I was happy with it.

as you can see I was expecting my gradual adjustments to gradually darken 71 but instead got brown and so on, different hues ! and this is in the suggested sRGB color space in Photoshop. Gimp and Pshop should create the same numbers from the same inputs, in theory. I will try it out though incase Pshop is too 'advanced' for the sim and doing something it is not happy with under the covers so to speak. Trouble is I know pshop like back of hand and its hard work skinning as it is, so add to that new palettes and interface etc adds to the confusion. All these image progs should create same image mathematically. Gimp should create exact same colour and its underlying maths with hsv 0 0 -5 as pshop does.

from what I have read sRGB is better than
AdobeRGB for more consistent and accurate results.https://kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm

since I set my Pshop and also monitor to sRGB what a jaded difference I am seeing, no wonder normal photo editing avoids sRGB, we see the world as it is colour wise with AdobeRGB, has a far greater range of greens, sRGB only just touches upon them., in other words AdobeRGB sees all the spectrum (almost) whilst sRGB chops it down somewhat. Shame sims dont adopt the 'real world' look of AdobeRGB.

As you are using Photoshop does this automatically use AdobeRGB and if You are using an sRGB monitor will they conflict?

No, I go into Colour Settings and select the sRGB from the dropdown list gamm2.2 etc and it sticks with that until I change it back for normal use. Monitor likewise.

Thanks for the data files,will take a look after the weekend.

BOBC