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Thread: Damage implementations

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    Novice Pilot Startrek66's Avatar
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    Damage implementations

    Hi guys.
    During a duel I bumped my tail plane against an opponent. The result was that I lost half the tail plane. I would have expected some problems and instead the pitch has retained its authority allowing me to do a complete loop. I think that should be evaluated in the next patches.
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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Startrek66 View Post
    Hi guys.
    During a duel I bumped my tail plane against an opponent. The result was that I lost half the tail plane. I would have expected some problems and instead the pitch has retained its authority allowing me to do a complete loop. I think that should be evaluated in the next patches.
    If you lose 1/2 of your elevator, your ability to generate angle will be reduced.

    Which aircraft were you flying?

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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Startrek66 View Post
    Hi guys.
    During a duel I bumped my tail plane against an opponent. The result was that I lost half the tail plane. I would have expected some problems and instead the pitch has retained its authority allowing me to do a complete loop. I think that should be evaluated in the next patches.
    Think it most obviously affects diving at 400+ kph, you'll struggle to maintain it with elevator damage. Which pretty much constitutes being combat ineffective in a 109.

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    Novice Pilot Startrek66's Avatar
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    Re: Damage implementations

    Hi guys, I was flying with the bf109 E3 (see screenshot).
    Consider that having some notion of dynamic flight, when I realized that had lost half the tail and that the aircraft responds very well to the controls, I performed a descent at 500 km / h is a subsequent climb performing a perfect loop. This amazed me and lets me think that the behavior of the aircraft in this case should be reviewed.


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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Startrek66 View Post
    Hi guys, I was flying with the bf109 E3 (see screenshot).
    Consider that having some notion of dynamic flight, when I realized that had lost half the tail and that the aircraft responds very well to the controls, I performed a descent at 500 km / h is a subsequent climb performing a perfect loop. This amazed me and lets me think that the behavior of the aircraft in this case should be reviewed.

    It is not necessary to apply full elevator to perform a loop with most WWII fighters.

    At the moment there is no reason to look at any changes.

    Turn times have been implemented based on known and calculated results.

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    Novice Pilot Startrek66's Avatar
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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    It is not necessary to apply full elevator to perform a loop with most WWII fighters.

    At the moment there is no reason to look at any changes.

    Turn times have been implemented based on known and calculated results.
    OK, it's better this way. Thank you

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    Re: Damage implementations

    It seems to me that loss of one half of the horizontal stabilizer (With its elevator) will most seriously impact the low speed characteristics of pitch control, not the high speed performance. The purpose of the horizontal stab/rudder is to impart a downward force on the tail in order to rotate the wing UP about the lateral axis (The wingtip to wingtip line), thereby increasing the Angle of Attack of the airfoil. This increases lift and subsequently causes acceleration (G's).

    If the airplane is flying at high speed, the elevator deflection required to reach the G limit is much less than at slow speeds, and may well be possible with one stab missing. According to my old eyeballs reading the equivalent of a modern V-G diagram, the Spitfire's cornering speed is around 244 MPH. In a healthy craft at this speed, full aft stick will create maximum allowed G forces on the wing structure. If you only have 50% of the downward tail force available due to damage, it may still be possible to reach the G limit, but it will obviously require more elevator deflection than normal. Pulling for the G limit under these conditions is ill-advised since the stabilizer/elevator is probably not the only system damaged.

    Conversely with elevator damage, when you need to reduce speed to maneuver closer to VSTALL for landing, you may run out of stick authority to control pitch in the traffic pattern. This is very serious since you also have less stick authority for stall/spin recovery. That's why, following damage, pilots in the real world will always conduct a "Controllability Check" by extending gear and flaps at a safe recovery/bailout altitude to determine if the plane is safe to fly in the landing configuration.

    Here's a related discussion in our forums from days of yore...

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ad.php?t=21122
    Last edited by Baffin; Apr-09-2018 at 10:26.
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    Novice Pilot Startrek66's Avatar
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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    It seems to me that loss of one half of the horizontal stabilizer (With its elevator) will most seriously impact the low speed characteristics of pitch control, not the high speed performance. The purpose of the horizontal stab/rudder is to impart a downward force on the tail in order to rotate the wing UP about the lateral axis (The wingtip to wingtip line), thereby increasing the Angle of Attack of the airfoil. This increases lift and subsequently causes acceleration (G's).

    If the airplane is flying at high speed, the elevator deflection required to reach the G limit is much less than at slow speeds, and may well be possible with one stab missing. According to my old eyeballs reading the equivalent of a modern V-G diagram, the Spitfire's cornering speed is around 244 MPH. In a healthy craft at this speed, full aft stick will create maximum allowed G forces on the wing structure. If you only have 50% of the downward tail force available due to damage, it may still be possible to reach the G limit, but it will obviously require more elevator deflection than normal. Pulling for the G limit under these conditions is ill-advised since the stabilizer/elevator is probably not the only system damaged.

    Conversely with elevator damage, when you need to reduce speed to maneuver closer to VSTALL for landing, you may run out of stick authority to control pitch in the traffic pattern. This is very serious since you also have less stick authority for stall/spin recovery. That's why, following damage, pilots in the real world will always conduct a "Controllability Check" by extending gear and flaps at a safe recovery/bailout altitude to determine if the plane is safe to fly in the landing configuration.

    Here's a related discussion in our forums from days of yore...

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ad.php?t=21122
    Thanks for your very complete explanation. I wanted to bring to the landing the aircraft but I was doing only the tests and then I interrupted the mission. I would have liked to evaluate the behavior of the aircraft at low speed in the phase of landing.

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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Startrek66 View Post
    Thanks for your very complete explanation. I wanted to bring to the landing the aircraft but I was doing only the tests and then I interrupted the mission. I would have liked to evaluate the behavior of the aircraft at low speed in the phase of landing.
    I understand. Flight testing by those of us who are not engineers is very helpful in a practical sense. Professional scientists can provide the more esoteric explanations after we become involved and interested by practicing our own exercises. In any case, I find it a lot of fun to simply go out and "see how it flies".
    It seems that you do too!
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    Novice Pilot Startrek66's Avatar
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    Re: Damage implementations

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    I understand. Flight testing by those of us who are not engineers is very helpful in a practical sense. Professional scientists can provide the more esoteric explanations after we become involved and interested by practicing our own exercises. In any case, I find it a lot of fun to simply go out and "see how it flies".
    It seems that you do too!
    Absolutely yes! With IL2 1946 I often tried to get the performance in flight that was reported in the flight manuals or in the tests done on the captured airplanes.
    in any case if on one of my RC model aircraft I had to lose half of the tail I would probably find it on the ground
    Last edited by Startrek66; Apr-09-2018 at 15:00.

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