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Thread: Fall rott unbalanced

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Fall rott unbalanced

    good job on adding Spits 1a 100 oct on haute fontaine...in case you wonder why is always at least 2:1 and a lot of times even 3:1 red vs blue. (Prime time europe)
    This map is totally unbalanced now. And we are talking about Battle of France where spitfires should be extremely rare.

    My squad mate Hans Gruber made this mission to be used on ATAG and it was great balance with spits 1a 100oct far away at Le Havre.
    Now, the map is joke and its clearly RAF biased.
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    Team Fusion Kling's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    On the other hand there is the map with the very strange setup where reds have Hurricane100oct and Spit87oct vs 109E4B... always seemed liked a very weird choice.
    One can get Spit100oct from Rochester but that is quite far away from the action.

    These maps with early plane sets only, never tend to get very busy as people log in and then log out. Most of the times me included but that is another story..

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    On the other hand there is the map with the very strange setup where reds have Hurricane100oct and Spit87oct vs 109E4B... always seemed liked a very weird choice.
    One can get Spit100oct from Rochester but that is quite far away from the action.

    These maps with early plane sets only, never tend to get very busy as people log in and then log out. Most of the times me included but that is another story..
    However, the E4B is only at St Omer and it is not exactly in the heart of the action either. Tbf I wouldn't mind it being just a plain E4, though there are a few map targets that the B can hit.

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    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    This map is a tough one for blue, when the teams are even. Blue has to send out interceptors to shut down Blenheims or Blue loses this map. The distances alone for Blue are what makes it hard. Yes, a Ju-88 carries more payload, but the map makers account for that. Knocking down 1 88, would be like Blue taking down 3-4 Blenheims, not only because of payload but distance to target. Longer distances keep bombers in danger, longer.

    The last thing this map needs is more Red air superiority, IMO.


    Reading through many complaints on several maps, it seems like the main issue overlooked is boredom.

    I believe rotating maps on and off will quell many of the complaints. Rotate two out and two in every month. Keep 6-7 on the server.

    We all have a favourite movie, but we'd get pretty sick of watching it every day.


    With that said. Thank you to our map makers.

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    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 gr00ve View Post
    Now, the map is joke and its clearly RAF biased.

    In no way do I believe the map makers are intending to make one side favourable.

    The fixes are usually from complaints on one side or the other, then map makers trying to appease the public.


    This balance is a tough nut to crack.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Freya's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    yeah....

    People bitch, I make some changes, other people bitch, I make some changes, another group of people bitch, I make some changes. ( I say bitch but this is all constructive criticism in my eyes actually, you know what I mean ) I want to play, not make or edit anyones maps anymore! I'm getting bored of it all, it keeps me away from this sim, and away from enjoying any fly time. Dug my own grave there, I guess.

    WE NEED PEOPLE TO MAKE MAPS.

    I'll mention it one more time...

    WE NEED PEOPLE TO MAKE MAPS.

    We are playing some maps that are 5 years old here. Plane set and balance won't help anymore. OFten I see server numbers where there is 20 reds and 5 blues! Doesn't anyone look at the flags, notice a brutal difference and therefore pick the underdogs? Nope.

    Somebody got to step up to the plate and make new content. Soon!


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    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Freya View Post
    yeah....

    People bitch, I make some changes, other people bitch, I make some changes, another group of people bitch, I make some changes. ( I say bitch but this is all constructive criticism in my eyes actually, you know what I mean ) I want to play, not make or edit anyones maps anymore! I'm getting bored of it all, it keeps me away from this sim, and away from enjoying any fly time. Dug my own grave there, I guess.

    WE NEED PEOPLE TO MAKE MAPS.

    I'll mention it one more time...

    WE NEED PEOPLE TO MAKE MAPS.

    We are playing some maps that are 5 years old here. Plane set and balance won't help anymore. OFten I see server numbers where there is 20 reds and 5 blues! Doesn't anyone look at the flags, notice a brutal difference and therefore pick the underdogs? Nope.

    Somebody got to step up to the plate and make new content. Soon!

    I agree, and I miss flying with you, Bud.

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    I believe rotating maps on and off will quell many of the complaints. Rotate two out and two in every month. Keep 6-7 on the server.

    We all have a favourite movie, but we'd get pretty sick of watching it every day.


    With that said. Thank you to our map makers.
    This is a very good suggestion. Rotating out maps as well as perhaps periodically changing the order in which they occur. As someone who lives on EST and can only really play Cliffs in the evening hours, it has begun to feel a little bit like Groundhog day-- I constantly see maps such as Joy Division, Steamworks, Dynamo, Fall Rot, and maybe Relinquish, and almost never see London Ruft, The War, Hellfire Corner, Mae West, etc. Im assuming this is a naturally occurring pattern based on the allotted time for each mission to play its course in a 24 hour period or so, but I feel like changing the order would help. I am sure the European set are feeling nostalgic for all of the maps I see nearly every night, while I relish the opportunity to play those that they must be getting tired of. Most of the maps I see are the ones with manual pitch planes, so lately I have had to become quite close the good old G.50 as well as the E1.

    Honestly, I probably wouldn't mind the frontline Spits as long as they were Spitfire 1's, so at least the red pilots would have a similar combat workload to the blue pilots.

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Multiplayer gaming is all about balance between teams. To make odds even.
    If you give something to one side, you have to compensate other side, otherwise balance is ruined.
    Fall Rott was one of perfectly balanced maps. Now it isn't.

    when people are bitching about maps you can:
    1. ignore it if you feel balance is good and you want to fly instead making changes
    2. make a poll or open a discussion to hear what entire community have to say about it, before making changes that affects balance and gameplay.

    We play fall rott for more than 5 years, and it was fun map always. No need of any changes IMO. If you wanted to fly top plane, you could do that from le havre. You dont want to fly thaaat long. Your problem, learn CEM and pick early variants available closer to action. Simple as that. Its Battle of France after all. It should be E1s vs Hurricanes mostly.
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 gr00ve View Post
    Its Battle of France after all. It should be E1s vs Hurricanes mostly.
    The glorious fight
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Well, I totally agree that maps should ideally give both sides the same chance to win and I can just guess how hard this is for the map-makers to achieve.
    But do you really feel that the adding of one slightly more advanced version of a plane can throw off this balance?
    As a red pilot I have to say that the difference in Spit !a and IIa is recognisable, but not a game changer. The result is the same anyway: I usually get shot down

    In the end it’s the pilots who win. And depending on who is online at a given point of time there is no balance at all, no matter what map is on.
    On Tuesday evening we had a map (I never can remember the names) were the only red airfield where you could get Ia (no IIa’s at all) was Eastchurch. I started with a squad-mate only to be bounced by a number of 109s (all E4 I think) of a well known, very successful blue squad  some minutes after take of, who camped above the airfield. They took out each and every Spit that tried to get off there. So the only way to play for the red side was to choose a real underdog plane somewhere far of try to climb high enough and start a fight with very bad odds or fly bombers. Very few red players stayed to try this and I have to admit we too seriously thought about leaving. We didn’t and I took a Blennie (only to be shot down by another member of the same squad after a long flight and about 5 km distance from my target ).

    Now what can be done? Nothing naturally. Nobody would dream of limiting the number of ace pilots just to give average blokes more fun. So you just go through it and hope you learn something on the way.

    Didn’t someone recently write
    “what is this bailing/crashing/getting shot down, everyone is on about?” in another thread?
    Well, this guy certainly would appreciate a bit of a challenge, wouldn’t he?

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    But do you really feel that the adding of one slightly more advanced version of a plane can throw off this balance?
    Nothing new was added, advanced version existed, but you had to fly for some time to get to action. That forced fast action hunters to fly what was available close to action and therefore forced mission to be more historical.


    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post

    Didn’t someone recently write
    “what is this bailing/crashing/getting shot down, everyone is on about?” in another thread?
    Well, this guy certainly would appreciate a bit of a challenge, wouldn’t he?
    although i appreciate every challenge i can get in this game, it's not about me. I'll get my kills whatever i fly. Whole blue side is suffering here. Numbers proves that.

    I remember many games on Fall Rott when server was full. Great fun!
    During last couple of months, numbers on blue side are getting lower and lower on Fall Rott, and these changes are not helping.

    At the end of the day, we all want packed server with plenty action. And Fall Rott always had to offer some.
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    I personally loved having to fly the spit I (100) ... its a completely overlooked and underrated plane by the community. When you understand the prop pitch mechanism, you find that its PLENTY capable against E1/3s. It was the only map that really forced the use of this variant and I liked that.

    Its kinda a shame that the Ia(100) is there now. Not a total map breaker IMO, but it takes away the added challenge and the feeling of early war combat.

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    Supporting Member SharkBait's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    I'm certainly guilty of jumping in the E-4/N if the model is available in a map. I guess it's just in people's nature to want to fly the best plane available.

    However, I must say that some of my best sorties were in the E-3 (like the other night in Dynamo). That's when I discover the fun of flying more manual, older crates. Not sure if this will happen in the future, but it makes me sad that once 5.0 comes out, most of us may even be abandoning Spit IIAs and E-4/Ns for Spit Vs and F-2s.

    Obviously, everyone has a choice and has a right to fly what they want, but it would be nice if there are still maps that hearken back to the "early war" scenarios and encourage people to fly the older models (Hurricane Is, E-1/3s, etc.). I wouldn't be opposed to maps that ONLY offer those models, but if that might be too restricting and really cause player numbers to plummet on those maps, perhaps we consider adding later models, but only in far airfields (just like how Fall Rot was set up in the past).

    Not sure if I'm offering a strong opinion one way or another, but just my thoughts / observations.
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    I personally loved having to fly the spit I (100) ... its a completely overlooked and underrated plane by the community. When you understand the prop pitch mechanism, you find that its PLENTY capable against E1/3s. It was the only map that really forced the use of this variant and I liked that.

    Its kinda a shame that the Ia(100) is there now. Not a total map breaker IMO, but it takes away the added challenge and the feeling of early war combat.
    Biggs, you are a feared pilot (especially by me )

    And I definitely share your sentiment, as demonstrated by my post. I enjoy flying older models, too.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Flare's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Once you can win dogfights vs 109s in a Hurricane 87 octane with the DH 5-20 prop you can win anything. (Unfortunately I am nowhere near that good!)

    I do agree, I think that the 100 oct Mk. Ia should not have been added to the forward bases.

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    If you want to get historical... the following are facts:

    - Spitfire I/IA's never operated from any land bases in France... they were never committed to the continent, Dowding wanted to ensure Britain kept them in reserve. Only Hurricane Squadrons were based in France. (and a few Gladiators)

    - The Spit I - 100 octane should be used for all Dieppe scenarios... it was by far the most common Spitfire type available. But it should be based in England.

    - Absolutely no 87 octane Spitfires were ever used in combat during the Battle of France or the Battle of Britain. All RAF Hurricane and Spitfire Squadrons were converted to 100 octane by March of 1940... i.e. long before these two battles. The 87 octane Spitfire and Hurricane are in the game, but they have no place in any historical scenario... the only 87 octane fueled RAF fighters which saw combat did so over areas not shown on the Channel map... and that happened in the period October 1939 to February 1940.

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    yeah having the mkI(100) on fall rot AT ALL is throwing the RAF a bone...

    There were only 3 squadrons of hurricanes in France IIRC. So like Buzz said we shouldnt see any at all!

    The operation dynamo map in ATAGs rotation is pretty faithful to reality... spits only from coastal airfields.

    I'd like to see spit I (100) replace the Ia(100)s at Le Havre if anywhere at all ... and the spits at Haut removed all together!

    Keeping a balance between 'fun/balanced' and 'historically accurate' is a bit of a fine line, but in this situation Fall rot should have the RAF on the back foot!

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Freya's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Relax fellas I'll change stuff, but r/l has me by the nads for a while. Like 3 more weeks. This one and a few other mission updates that are in the to-do list. But after that I'm done.



    PS. Have I ever mentioned that we need more mission builders? 'Cause we need more mission builders.

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post

    There were only 3 squadrons of hurricanes in France IIRC.
    There were lot more Hurricane Squadrons over there. No 1 Sqn, 73 Sqn, 85 Sqn and 87 Sqn were the first ones and went already late 1939 in france. Stayed during the very (!) cold winter 1940 on the fields.
    Before Dunkirk No 3,17,56,79,213,229,242,245,253,501,501,504,601,605 ,607 and 615 (maybe some even more) all with Hurricanes took part in the airwar over France. Thats why Hugh Dowding wrote his famous letter to Churchill to stop immediately sending Hurricanes Squadrons to France.
    Last edited by LARRY69; May-18-2018 at 05:53.
    http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/GZ-H%201_zpsdphexiii.jpg

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Freya View Post
    Relax fellas I'll change stuff, but r/l has me by the nads for a while. Like 3 more weeks. This one and a few other mission updates that are in the to-do list. But after that I'm done.



    PS. Have I ever mentioned that we need more mission builders? 'Cause we need more mission builders.
    Hey Freya

    I don't think any of this is intended as criticism... we know you mission builders are under pressure to make the scenarios competitive... otherwise people will complain.

    You guys have done a great job overall... I think this thread is mainly just about the single mission.

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    Manual Creation Group Maru's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Can we have a map poll where we can change the map to the next one in game?

    There are also some maps where you can only spawn a Ia(100oct) while the BLUE side can spawn their E-4/N which gives the red side a lot of trouble since the Ia cant perform better than the IIa at higher altitudes while the 4/N just goes to the moon compared to the Ia...


    Quote Originally Posted by SharkBait View Post

    However, I must say that some of my best sorties were in the E-3 (like the other night in Dynamo).

    Same happens to me but in the RED side, I get more kills with the Ia (100oct) than with the IIa
    Last edited by Maru; May-11-2018 at 05:34.

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    Supporting Member Tibsun's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    If you want to get historical... the following are facts:

    - Spitfire I/IA's never operated from any land bases in France... they were never committed to the continent, Dowding wanted to ensure Britain kept them in reserve. Only Hurricane Squadrons were based in France. (and a few Gladiators)

    - The Spit I - 100 octane should be used for all Dieppe scenarios... it was by far the most common Spitfire type available. But it should be based in England.

    - Absolutely no 87 octane Spitfires were ever used in combat during the Battle of France or the Battle of Britain. All RAF Hurricane and Spitfire Squadrons were converted to 100 octane by March of 1940... i.e. long before these two battles. The 87 octane Spitfire and Hurricane are in the game, but they have no place in any historical scenario... the only 87 octane fueled RAF fighters which saw combat did so over areas not shown on the Channel map... and that happened in the period October 1939 to February 1940.
    What about the DB 601 Aa engines availability and dedication to fighter or fighterbomber?

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52_Meyer's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Maru View Post
    Can we have a map poll where we can change the map to the next one in game?

    There are also some maps where you can only spawn a Ia(100oct) while the BLUE side can spawn their E-4/N which gives the red side a lot of trouble since the Ia cant perform better than the IIa at higher altitudes while the 4/N just goes to the moon compared to the Ia...





    Same happens to me but in the RED side, I get more kills with the Ia (100oct) than with the IIa
    TBH im not that familiar with maps and names . What map has no 2a but has 4n?

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by Maru View Post
    There are also some maps where you can only spawn a Ia(100oct) while the BLUE side can spawn their E-4/N which gives the red side a lot of trouble since the Ia cant perform better than the IIa at higher altitudes while the 4/N just goes to the moon compared to the Ia...
    You are referring to Hellfire Corner. Indeed, blue side have E4N on that map, but limited to 8 planes per map IIRC. When limit is reached you can spawn in E4N, but your ailerons and elevators will fall off while on ground with message about limit reached for given plane.
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Funny. I prefer the Spit1a100oct over the IIa any day!

    The SpitIIa has a tendancy to overheat at 14-15k where most of the the action takes place. This forces me to reduce RPM and power and use 100% radiator.

    Since most action takes place below 15k i find the Spit1a the most useful. SpitIIa is great over 25k but there you are mostly alone.

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    I say take the spit 1a 100oct off that map altogether, boohiss

    When red pilots aren't spending precious time flying all the way from le havre (being useless), they can get in a Hurricane and appreciate that it is more than a match for any 109 < E-4 and be in the fight much more quicker.

    Kling loves that map really. He just cant bring himself to say it.

    The main reason blue guys logout (IMO) is having to use manual prop pitch which they can't be bothered to learn and bored waiting for the spitfires to show up.

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Meyer View Post
    TBH im not that familiar with maps and names . What map has no 2a but has 4n?

    Hals und beinbruch
    I dont know the map names either but as groove said it could be Hellfire Corner.

    I remember checking the stats and I could see many 4/Ns while on the red side I only saw 1a 100octs,
    then I thought maybe nobody found the airfield for the IIa so I looked but found none so its just the map I guess.

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  39. #29
    Supporting Member 9./JG52_Meyer's Avatar
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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Cheers Maru thats something i didnt know. No a2 and e4 included also seems like an inbalance to me
    I have flown these maps for about 3 years now and i still couldnt tell you their names or what the missions are or targets the plane sets etc etc.

    Hals und beinbruch
    Oberleutnant - Otto Meyer
    "Gelb Acht"
    9.Staffel / Jagdgeschwader 52
    (Karaya)





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    http://www.9jg52.com/

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    Re: Fall rott unbalanced

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Meyer View Post
    i still couldnt tell you their names or what the missions are or targets the plane sets etc etc.


    Don't feel alone, I went running around to try and find a 'Fall Rott briefing of sorts' to figure out what map is being discussed here.
    So the Barley map for me I guess? hehe

    I just fly, shoot a bit if I am lucky, then die a bit more. The only thing that changes is the scenery

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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