TFS Update. TF5 skins: Wellingtons

[major_setback]

Here are the Wellington skins that will be included in TF5:

TFS Wellington TF5 WGR dragon logo a01s03 z.jpgscreenshots TF4.49 first download a01 a58 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 WGR dragon logo a01s z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 WGR dragon logo a01s01 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 WGR dragon logo a01s04 z.jpgscreenshots TF4.49 first download a01 a57 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 Coastal a03s04 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Coastal a03s05 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Coastal a03s06 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Coastal a03s07 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 BUD logo a01s z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 BUD logo a01s04 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 BUD logo a01s06 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 GRH polish a01s01 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 GRH polish a01s03 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 GRH polish a01s04 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 Lemon logo a01s01 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Lemon logo a01s04 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Lemon logo a01s08 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Lemon logo a01s09 z.jpg

TFS Wellington TF5 Wimpey a02s12 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Wimpey a02s14 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Wimpey a02s03 z.jpgTFS Wellington TF5 Wimpey a02s08 z.jpg

Desert skin:
Welly Des Mule a072Mast b s01 z.jpgWelly Des Mule a072Mast b s02 z.jpgWelly Des Mule a072Mast b s03 z.jpgWelly Des Mule a072Mast b s04 z.jpg

Welly Des Mule a072Mast b s05 z.jpg

Weathered desert skin:
Setbacks TF4 Welli Mule a26 (23 wear) panel lines blur b s01 z.jpgSetbacks TF4 Welli Mule a26 (23 wear) panel lines blur b s02 z.jpgSetbacks TF4 Welli Mule a26 (23 wear) panel lines blur b s03 z.jpg

Some older screenshots:

Setbacks TF4 Welli Mule a15 roundelsS03 z.jpgSetbacks TF4 Welli Mule a15 roundelsS04 z.jpgSetbacks TF4 Welli Mule a15 roundelsS06 z.jpgSetbacks TF4 Welli Mule a42 Wear15pc, grain2(5pc) and grain1(5pc)random8pcS z.jpgWellyDesMulea069WindowS04 z.jpg

Setbacks TF4 Welli Mule a42 Wear15pc, grain2(5pc) and grain1(5pc)random8pcS08 z.jpgWellyDesMulea069WindowS z.jpg

In-game weathering on the skin:

WellyDesMulea069WindowS20inGameWear z.jpg

All screenshots are WiP.

Cheers, major_setback

[ATAG_Vampire]

Great work again major.

I am looking forward to getting my hands on a 'Wimpy'.

Thanks for posting.

o7

[deep]

Superb!

Looking at these, I think you probably had just as much fun making these skins as we will have flying in them.

A big Thank You!

[ATAG_Freya]

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Superb!

Looking at these, I think you probably had just as much fun making these skins as we will have flying in them.

A big Thank You!

We are just about at the point where we start making the Wellingtons flyable with the new cockpits.

Someone is working on making the turrets usable by a human at the moment.

After that, the cockpit.

They have been flyable for a long time, but only with testbed cockpits.

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Great pics coming along nicely. We are Looking forward to tearing chunks out of them with our F4 nose cannons

Hals und beinbruch

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Great pics coming along nicely. We are Looking forward to tearing chunks out of them with our F4 nose cannons

Hals und beinbruch

Or your underwing cannon gunpods.

[ATAG_Flare]

Man these skins look fantastic. On the last ones you posted (Gladiators) I thought the colours were a little off but these ones look so real. Nice work.

[IIJG27Rich]

So nice guys..Can't wait to see more

[major_setback]

Man these skins look fantastic. On the last ones you posted (Gladiators) I thought the colours were a little off but these ones look so real. Nice work.

I used a weathered look on the Gladiators, but will probably also include a non-weathered version of the grey/slate camo (see the next Gladiator update).
'Extra Dark Slate Grey' is a difficult colour to get right though, so it is possible it might not look exactly as it should.

Cheers, major_setback

[ATAG_Scones]

Thanks for posting, Major.

These skins are fantastic!

I really appreciate your keeping us informed.

[Archwarder]

Are all planes going to have a default skin which is what everybody sees and is not selectable in 5.0 as it is currently or will we be able to choose our own skins?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Are all planes going to have a default skin which is what everybody sees and is not selectable in 5.0 as it is currently or will we be able to choose our own skins?

Hello Archwarder

All planes have default skins.

Custom Skins can be selectable now, but whether or not these skins are visible is determined by the server settings.

If the server does allow it, then all skins can be selected... but these will have a negative effect on multiplayer smoothness. Typically there is a micro-freeze when someone using a custom skin comes online.

[ATAG_Flare]

What would be really awesome would be for there to be a few selectable (non custom) skins that get included in the game that show up even if custom skins are disabled (loaded from your game installation rather than uploaded). They would have to be stored in a different folder I guess so you couldn't edit them.

[major_setback]

Are all planes going to have a default skin which is what everybody sees and is not selectable in 5.0 as it is currently or will we be able to choose our own skins?

You should be able to chose your skins freely in FMB (full mission builder), if not in 'Quick missions' (which may first need editing in FMB).

Default skins should be different for European theater and North Africa.
For players using the desert map, the default skins should automatically be desert skins (ex. Middle Stone /Dark Earth / Azure Blue).
The Gladiators will no doubt have desert skins (Mid Stone / Dk Earth) on the TF 5 map rather than the FAA markings of Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate / Sky.
This is what we are hoping to implement.

[Blitzen]

Very very impressive work....does this mean we are very near to release?

[IIJG27Rich]

Very very impressive work....does this mean we are very near to release?

If I'm a guessing hoping praying betting man Blitzen..I would say things are coming along nicely...But they'll tell you until it's "Two Weeks" and I mean 14 days away

[Gromit]

We are just about at the point where we start making the Wellingtons flyable with the new cockpits.

Someone is working on making the turrets usable by a human at the moment.

After that, the cockpit.

They have been flyable for a long time, but only with testbed cockpits.

Is it possible to simplify the turret aiming to just the mouse instead of the mouse and keys lark we have now?

The bofors works off the mouse as did all guns in the old 1946, unsure why they made it such a fiddle in this game.

[Gromit]

Or your underwing cannon gunpods.

Are the 109F's going to pay a realistic penalty for lugging these gunpods around or will we have everyone flying 109F4's with gunpods dogfighting like they don't exist, because that's what happened in the old 1946, the penalty in drag/inertia was naff all, unlike the real aircraft.

[9./JG52 gr00ve]

Buzzsaw, question about jabo in 5.0, will we be able to mount bomb on any 109 (like in BoX), or will there be specific 109 models for that (like we have now)?

[ATAG_Ribbs]

Hey Gromit I bet they will pay a heavy price for those gun pods.. we are already taking a a 10 mph hit in the hurricane just for the bomb racks on the FB.

[Gromit]

Hey Gromit I bet they will pay a heavy price for those gun pods.. we are already taking a a 10 mph hit in the hurricane just for the bomb racks on the FB.

Well they certainly should do, this is Adolf Gallands take on the matter, most of us probably remember the head of the Jagdwaffe -

"Immediately after this conversation (with Hitler) came the order to increase the armament of the Me-109F, two additional 20mm cannons were mounted below the wings. these "gondolas", or "bathtubs" as we called them, naturally affected the performance of the plane badly. the aircraft defaced in this way was as good as useless for fighter combat, but at least with three cannon she now had a firing power with which one could achieve something in the battle with the flying Fortresses.

Later on when the fighter escort of the Americans became more and more effective, the "bathtubs" had to be removed again, the escorting fighters became the primary target. shooting down bombers took second place.

(Adolf Galland , The First And The Last, page 84)

[IIJG27Rich]

Heinrich Bartels flew a G6 with pods all the time out of Greece. I'd hate that

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Is it possible to simplify the turret aiming to just the mouse instead of the mouse and keys lark we have now?

The bofors works off the mouse as did all guns in the old 1946, unsure why they made it such a fiddle in this game.

We are working on a solution to this... of course, the Wellington's turret was completely power operated, unlike the turrets in the Blenheim which only had the horizontal movement powered.

Are the 109F's going to pay a realistic penalty for lugging these gunpods around or will we have everyone flying 109F4's with gunpods dogfighting like they don't exist, because that's what happened in the old 1946, the penalty in drag/inertia was naff all, unlike the real aircraft.

Of course. And the Tropical types will pay a penalty for having the cumbersome filters... especially the idiotically designed Vokes filter for the Hurris and Spits. The later Aboukir filter did not apparently arrive till later in 1942.

Re: TFS Update. TF5 skins: Wellingtons
Buzzsaw, question about jabo in 5.0, will we be able to mount bomb on any 109 (like in BoX), or will there be specific 109 models for that (like we have now)?

Depending on the model and time of the scenario... 109F's did not normally mount bombs in 1941 due to the fact the designated 'Jabo' Staffels in each Geschwader were equipped with 109E's. The Luftwaffe had an overall shortage of the latest models and preferred to use the best types for pure air superiority. The 109E's remained in service for quite a considerable time in the ground support role. As did the Bf-110's.

Same with the Spitfires, these did not mount bombs until later in the war... they relied on the Hurricanes and P-40's taking the ground support role. (Martlets and Beaufighters were also used in ground support role)

[ATAG_((dB))]

Is it possible to simplify the turret aiming to just the mouse instead of the mouse and keys lark we have now?

The bofors works off the mouse as did all guns in the old 1946, unsure why they made it such a fiddle in this game.

Oui oui OUI

[Gromit]

We are working on a solution to this... of course, the Wellington's turret was completely power operated, unlike the turrets in the Blenheim which only had the horizontal movement powered.



Of course. And the Tropical types will pay a penalty for having the cumbersome filters... especially the idiotically designed Vokes filter for the Hurris and Spits. The later Aboukir filter did not apparently arrive till later in 1942.




Depending on the model and time of the scenario... 109F's did not normally mount bombs in 1941 due to the fact the designated 'Jabo' Staffels in each Geschwader were equipped with 109E's. The Luftwaffe had an overall shortage of the latest models and preferred to use the best types for pure air superiority. The 109E's remained in service for quite a considerable time in the ground support role. As did the Bf-110's.

Same with the Spitfires, these did not mount bombs until later in the war... they relied on the Hurricanes and P-40's taking the ground support role. (Martlets and Beaufighters were also used in ground support role)

So we can read from this the performance gap between the 109's and all the red aircraft will be considerable?

Is any consideration being given to the knock on effect this will have on player numbers, red team will all be excited at the prospect of having US flight models to play only to find they are left for dead by aircraft up to 50mph faster according to what you believe, is any consideration being given to the red team basically saying "Pffff what the point of this" and leaving to play something else?

[DerDa]

@Gromit
I am afraid it will get much harder still for red.
We have to take the fight down low with Beaufighters and P40s and just be thankful that there are no FW 190s yet.

By the way: what about a Beau Ic with some bombs?

[Gromit]

@Gromit
I am afraid it will get much harder still for red.
We have to take the fight down low with Beaufighters and P40s and just be thankful that there are no FW 190s yet.

By the way: what about a Beau Ic with some bombs?

Unfortunately we were supposed to be in this situation now with the 109 superior at altitude and the Spit lower down, what's actually happened is the blues just fly the 109E4B down low.

This is a game after all and if the performance gap is such that one side is disadvantaged then you risk losing your player base.

It's ok the bang on about "historical this, historical that" but lets get real computer games are not historical, humans can't pull maximum G manoeuvres non stop until your fuel runs out for instance, the developers are tied by available information, and after a few months reading up on these tests one thing is abundantly clear, the tests are often not comparable.

as an example are the tests conducted on aircraft drawn from squadrons, taken off the production line or random batch, or is it prepared by the factory for the test?

Is the test the maximum attained by one aircraft once or repeatedly (they all vary), are they one test or an average of several attempts.

are the results calculated, best achievable, or tested?

Are they corrected or raw figures, if corrected are they corrected to the same values and requirements which are different dependant on nation, there seems to be no universal standard.

If you cannot answer these questions then you risk imbalance.


This comment for instance comes from a Russian ace (anecdote so you have to take it at face value but interesting none the less)


A. S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, sometime relatively long ago I was speaking with a pilot, a frontline veteran. Right after the war they flew in captured aircraft. And no matter how hard they tried, they were unable to attain the speeds the Germans had written in their specifications. The shortfall in speed was significant. In the end, they prevailed upon a German, a high-level specialist, and asked him, "Why this shortfall in speed? Are we using the engine's capability incorrectly?" His response was that they would never achieve the target speed, because the German specifications showed the theoretical speed, and they were attempting to attain that speed on their instruments.

Again I stress this is an anecdote but does it give some indication to the differences?

If you read the performance data for the 109F and the Spit V for example the gap is huge, yet you will never read of super fast 109's in Squadron reports, Spit V's fought the 109F and early G in Malta (a good example as both sides had mainly experienced pilots) I have several books on the Malta battles yet only the Hurricane sqdns mention the performance deficit to the 109 and the need for Spitfires, many 109F's were shot down by Spit V's, yet we are supposed to believe the 109 is up to 40mph faster, that would be a pretty poor showing by the Luftwaffe pilots considering the numerical advantage as well as 40mph, so I simply don't buy it, there is something amiss here.

And I fear if you translate these on paper performance advantages, which may not of existed in a mas produced frontline aircraft, into game code it could be detrimental to the community.

I really would not want to see that, and I understand there is limited information to work with which is obviously a problem, but this is what split the old 1946 community.

[ATAG_Ribbs]

Gromit..You make some great points and achieving a certain balance in a game is very tricky.. especially when trying to achieve historical accuracy is a daunting task. Put in the mix of transforming information into game code. I say we just sit back and let Buzz and TFS work their magic. I trust that Buzz will do his best to achieve all of this. It doesn't do anyone any good if oneside completely dominates the other because of a certain flight models completely out performing the other sides in ALL aspects. Now if the aircraft is being used incorrectly.. then that's on the player..not the developer. Let's just sit back and see what they come up with. It's never an end all..things can always be tweaked later if needed. S!

[69th_Zeb]

I can say for our guys that we much prefer realism over advantage. When we can devise tactics and teamwork that overcomes the odds, it makes the mission feel that much better. Newer folks can always pick up the superior fighters as well to help them get going. Having the axis aircraft have an edge over us also helps get more numbers on that side to even things out. When we get bounced by 5 109s, it gets much more exciting than if it was just another cruise flight to a target.
SP missions can be always be tailored to create scenarios which are more even.

From a marketing standpoint, Bodenplatte will "probably" make more money giving everyone what they want with tweaks for evening the playing field, but if that is the case, it will loose its appeal after a few years. CLOD is more like a museum piece.

I think if the game was marketed to the major airshows, like Oshkosh, Sun and Fun, or the Paris airshow, you would find the niche group of people that would appreciate this sim. Some guys have done well promoting TFS/ATAG at smaller airshows.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all pans out.