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Thread: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

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    Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Hi all.

    I've noticed there seems to be a lot of G-50's in missions they shouldn't historically be in.
    The G-50 didn't even begin to arrive in northern Europe until 10th Sept 1940 and did not fly their first combat mission for over a month.
    Even then they didn't fly many sorties until they were sent back to the mediterranean in early 1941.

    With the apparant lack of airframes in any case, even in missions that they could historically be in, they should be very limited in numbers.

    Source: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/...le-of-britain/

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    Hi all.

    I've noticed there seems to be a lot of G-50's in missions they shouldn't historically be in.
    The G-50 didn't even begin to arrive in northern Europe until 10th Sept 1940 and did not fly their first combat mission for over a month.
    Even then they didn't fly many sorties until they were sent back to the mediterranean in early 1941.

    With the apparant lack of airframes in any case, even in missions that they could historically be in, they should be very limited in numbers.

    Source: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/...le-of-britain/
    Hi Padre.

    I like the G50. It offers another challenge against those pesky RAF. There is a balance between fun and historic. Personally, I prefer fun. There isn't really any historical accuracy in this sim. It's a game. The 'historic' aspect can be argued until the cows come home.

    Variety and choice is what makes this sim fun, IMO. It's bad enough that most maps have us g50 pilots way back from the front lines, flying from far bases. If you want limited, it already exists. Very few people fly them.

    Do G50s make your experience less enjoyable?

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    Hi Padre.

    I like the G50. It offers another challenge against those pesky RAF. There is a balance between fun and historic. Personally, I prefer fun. There isn't really any historical accuracy in this sim. It's a game. The 'historic' aspect can be argued until the cows come home.

    Variety and choice is what makes this sim fun, IMO. It's bad enough that most maps have us g50 pilots way back from the front lines, flying from far bases. If you want limited, it already exists. Very few people fly them.

    Do G50s make your experience less enjoyable?
    +1

    I agree! I think they make alot of RAF pilots experience less enjoyable..
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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    My apoligies, I didn't realise that people were not interested in historical accuracy on the server missions.

    It's nothing to do with wether it's fun or not.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Some missions in rotation are historically accurate, some are what ifs, some are completely made up. It is up to the mission builders.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    Hi all.

    I've noticed there seems to be a lot of G-50's in missions they shouldn't historically be in.
    The G-50 didn't even begin to arrive in northern Europe until 10th Sept 1940 and did not fly their first combat mission for over a month.
    Even then they didn't fly many sorties until they were sent back to the mediterranean in early 1941.

    With the apparant lack of airframes in any case, even in missions that they could historically be in, they should be very limited in numbers.

    Source: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/...le-of-britain/
    You are correct.

    However, as others have said, players like the option of having a different sort of aircraft on the Axis side... the G-50 is a 'turn and burner' instead of an energy fighter like the 109E.

    There are more historically correct missions on the servers and campaigns out there which have strict aircraft type limits.

    CLIFFS OF DOVER has the potential of being entirely historical if mission builders want it to be... they could limit aircraft types... but then many players would be flying 109E-1's and Hurricanes.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    My apoligies, I didn't realise that people were not interested in historical accuracy on the server missions.

    It's nothing to do with wether it's fun or not.
    There's no need to apologize... there are many of us who are interested in historical accuracy. We encourage YOU to develop a mission with no historical anachronisms. I suppose that a number of people may not wish to give up their E-4N's and Spitfire MKII's, but if you write the script, both of us purely historical players will fly it with you.
    Last edited by Baffin; Jul-04-2018 at 15:13.
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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post

    CLIFFS OF DOVER has the potential of being entirely historical if mission builders want it to be... they could limit aircraft types... but then many players would be flying 109E-1's and Hurricanes.
    I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that only Hurricanes and 109 E1's would be available. The first Spitfire was in active service with 19 Squadron at Duxford in August 1938. By the time war was declared, 10 RAF fighter squadrons had been equipped with Spitfires, and 1,583 Mk 1s were available.
    https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk...f-the-spitfire

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    There's no need to apologize... there are many of us who are interested in historical accuracy. We encourage YOU to develop a mission with no historical anachronisms. I suppose that a number of people may not wish to give up their E-4N's and Spitfire MKII's, but if you write the script, both of us purely historical players will fly it with you.
    I actually have made many historical missions for IL2 1946. I researched them painstakingly and they had aircraft as were around in theatre at the time. However, this won't be happening in Clod as I don't have enough time in my life to have a life and learn scripting.

    I was heavily involved in 1946, not just mission building but also server administration. Part of the reason for me moving on from 1946 was to get away from that.

    The only reason I questioned the inclusion of the G-50 in the first place was to guage what the community's attitude towards historical accuracy was.

    Thanks all.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    My apoligies, I didn't realise that people were not interested in historical accuracy on the server missions.

    It's nothing to do with wether it's fun or not.
    Historically based maps can be fun, too. The G50 did participate in BoB, whether or not it made any difference.

    My worry is that limiting aircraft types at this point would further reduce online numbers.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    Historically based maps can be fun, too. The G50 did participate in BoB, whether or not it made any difference.

    My worry is that limiting aircraft types at this point would further reduce online numbers.
    I covered how much time the G-50 spent in the BoB in a previous comment so not going to go over the same point again.

    It's sad that people would react in such a manner if they can't fly what they want ... "Toys" and "Pram" fit into a sentence there somewhere.
    However, there is another possibility. Perhaps the online community would increase if there was more realistic planesets and people are put of by the inaccuracy?
    Last edited by 334th_Padre; Jul-04-2018 at 18:32.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Spiritus_Mortem View Post
    Some missions in rotation are historically accurate, some are what ifs, some are completely made up. It is up to the mission builders.
    This.



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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    However, there is another possibility. Perhaps the online community would increase if there was more realistic planesets and people are put of by the inaccuracy?
    Then wouldn't we expect to see boosted numbers on the maps with the Spitfire I's vs. E1/E3's? The evidence suggests otherwise

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlMarks View Post
    Then wouldn't we expect to see boosted numbers on the maps with the Spitfire I's vs. E1/E3's? The evidence suggests otherwise
    The fact that there is little more than 20-30 players most evenings, compared to over 100 when 334th joined Clod suggests numbers are declining with the current planesets and maps, so the evidence actually suggests that there are problems in the Sim and that numbers are declining as it is.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    The fact that there is little more than 20-30 players most evenings, compared to over 100 when 334th joined Clod suggests numbers are declining with the current planesets and maps, so the evidence actually suggests that there are problems in the Sim and that numbers are declining as it is.
    The numbers have declined due to a number of reasons. Good weather in the northern hemisphere being a big one. It happens every year, and I've been here for 5. I don't believe this recent low numbers count has anything to do with plane sets or 'historic'.

    Carl is right, the maps with limited aircraft always seemed to be less popular. This was one of the reasons Fall Rot would lose players.

    Most of the time when I hear that someone doesn't like a map, it's because the map doesn't have the plane they wanted to fly.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Thank you all for your comments.

    It has been very useful in guaging the feeling of the community towards historical accuracy.

    Good day to you all.

    S!

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that only Hurricanes and 109 E1's would be available. The first Spitfire was in active service with 19 Squadron at Duxford in August 1938. By the time war was declared, 10 RAF fighter squadrons had been equipped with Spitfires, and 1,583 Mk 1s were available.
    https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk...f-the-spitfire
    You mis-read my comment. I didn't say 'only', I said 'many'.

    The facts were, 3/5's of the RAF fighter pilots in the BoB were in Hurricane Squadrons... and around 40%, (depending on the month) of the 109's were E-1 models.

    Obviously the most modern types were available, but a historical server, assuming relative numbers, would not see everyone flying 109E-4N's and Spitfire IIA's.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    The numbers have declined due to a number of reasons. Good weather in the northern hemisphere being a big one. It happens every year, and I've been here for 5. I don't believe this recent low numbers count has anything to do with plane sets or 'historic'.
    Summer time = holiday time, soccer world cup, etc. all certainly have an impact on the number of currently active online pilots.

    There are maps that are more popular among people (Relinquish, Sealion, Raiders), and some that are less popular (New Dawn Fades, London Calling, ...) but I doubt that the maps have any impact on long-term player numbers.

    That said I'd like to see more maps blocking the use of the /Ns and the Spit II. The availability of the high-end models leads to less diversity of planes actually being flown as everyone tends to take the "best" that they can get their hands on and I can perfectly understand that. The Hurricane for example stands very little chance against an /N model which is why we see fewer of them the more /Ns are around.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    The fact that there is little more than 20-30 players most evenings, compared to over 100 when 334th joined Clod suggests numbers are declining with the current planesets and maps, so the evidence actually suggests that there are problems in the Sim and that numbers are declining as it is.
    Another factor that hasn't been considered is that when 334th joined CloD, the game and the community had been enjoying a spike of interest around the release of version 4.5. A lot of people returned to the game in anticipation of, and after release, and things have been gradually returning to normal in terms of the active player base since then. Add to that the other factors that people have mentioned (weather, world cup) and some big new updates for IL-2: BoX, DCS and to a lesser extent Post Scriptum, people simply have more options for their leisure time right now.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Great flying against you this morning Karaya. Yourself and DUI are a great combo mate.

    Got some hits on one of you near Calais, but after knocking over a couple mid channel you guys got me literally at the end of the map.

    Was like the end of Dunkirk, the Spitty crash lands just before the credits roll

    Great challenge as always.
    Last edited by ATAG_Pattle; Jul-05-2018 at 08:18.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    Hi all.

    I've noticed there seems to be a lot of G-50's in missions they shouldn't historically be in.
    The G-50 didn't even begin to arrive in northern Europe until 10th Sept 1940 and did not fly their first combat mission for over a month.
    Even then they didn't fly many sorties until they were sent back to the mediterranean in early 1941.

    With the apparant lack of airframes in any case, even in missions that they could historically be in, they should be very limited in numbers.

    Source: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/...le-of-britain/
    As much I'm with you having historical planes, you would have to accept aswell further back airfields with less late Spitfires and not taking off from Oye Plague with a Spit or at all.
    Even what if scenarious could be a little bit adjusted to the available planes at a specific period.

    It also feels to me like that our original maps got more adjusted towards "dogfight" with all planes.
    I understand that people want to dogfight, but there is dogfight server out here.
    But oh well... people complain at the ATAG servers and want more dogfight servers... and don't want to fly Hurricanes or E-3s in ATAG early time realistic set up.. if you would open vote for more time specific planes, you would probably end up losing the vote for the arcade players.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pans View Post
    Another factor that hasn't been considered is that when 334th joined CloD, the game and the community had been enjoying a spike of interest around the release of version 4.5. A lot of people returned to the game in anticipation of, and after release, and things have been gradually returning to normal in terms of the active player base since then. Add to that the other factors that people have mentioned (weather, world cup) and some big new updates for IL-2: BoX, DCS and to a lesser extent Post Scriptum, people simply have more options for their leisure time right now.
    Are you sure? There is nothing new in BoX for months and DCS is in some kind of a limbo, regarding WW2 at least.





    And there would be no such peaks on Sundays, ACG is moving to BoX in August.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by vranac View Post
    Are you sure? There is nothing new in BoX for months and DCS is in some kind of a limbo, regarding WW2 at least.
    Yes, I am sure; we've just had the new F-18 module for DCS, the official release of Kuban in March and a series of general updates to BoX since then.
    Last edited by Pans; Jul-05-2018 at 12:50. Reason: To sound less snarky!

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    Great flying against you this morning Karaya. Yourself and DUI are a great combo mate.

    Got some hits on one of you near Calais, but after knocking over a couple mid channel you guys got me literally at the end of the map.

    Was like the end of Dunkirk, the Spitty crash lands just before the credits roll

    Great challenge as always.
    The airspace around Calais was definitely crowded near the map end. We flew an aggressive CAP but kept bumping into superior numbers of Spits in our E-1s mid channel which forced us back several times. Not sure if it was actually us shooting you down. Think I saw you chase a single 109 on the deck towards France mid channel. By the time I nosed down you were already on your way back home and a fair distance away. We took care of a few other Spits mid-channel though when the map rolled.


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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Was definately 2 E 1s around me and Marlow at the end. Thought you guys were the only 2 E 1s at the time. Was a ful on last 20 minutes or so

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Hey Padre.

    Good post. This is an interesting topic.

    Essentially the mission makers and the players have to decide on the balance between fun and historical accuracy. I lean towards the side of historical accuracy (so G 50s would basically be non-existent in all our missions) and I am one of the minority in that I think the missions with only E3 and Hurricanes are way more fun - Fall Rot is probably my favourite mission that we have by far, and Dynamo is awesome.

    However there are many big fans of the G50 such as Drock and Gromit so I wouldn't remove those planes from the missions, especially since about half of the missions are quite fictional anyway such as New Dawn Fades and Relinquish (the latter being one of the best maps in my opinion after say Fall Rot.)

    I do concur with what some people have said and that we should have more missions without IIas and E4s and E4Ns. It's more fun flying the weaker birds and often more historically accurate (over 2/3ds of the RAF fighters were Hurricanes, but when Spits are available everyone flies them).

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    I personally see no issue with the G.50 being present more than historically was the case. First off it's not exactly a top of the line fighter and takes a good pilot to survive in a hostile environment, second we never see many of them flown anyways contrary to the many /Ns and Mk.IIs that roam the ATAG skies.

    If we took history into account we'd have to remove it from about every map there is as its squadrons were based in Belgium and the type did not score any kills during the BoB.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    I wrote something like this in a similar thread, but anyway:

    In my opinion any historical accuracy is maybe possible to some extend in single player missions.
    In multiplayer it almost impossible, no matter what the plane set is.

    Just have a look at the numbers. If you want historical accuracy percentages do play an important role. At the beginning of the Battle of Britain RAF had about 700 fighters. The Luftwaffe around 1100 and (don't forget, the BoB was not a merry fighter dogfight play, but a bombing campaign) around 1600 Bombers.
    To achieve something like historical accuracy the numbers of red fighters on a 100 player server should be restricted to 20 (if the server is full), 32 players would be allowed to fly blue fighters, all the rest would need to fly blue bombers.
    If there are only, let's say 30 players on the server, then only six people would be allowed to fly Spit or Hurri.
    If there are only ten then it would be no more than two red fighters ...


    Doesn't sound like a lot of fun ...

    Oh, forget red bombing. That was not a real big part of the BoB.
    Doesn't sound like a lot of fun, for blennie lovers ...

    Flying a
    Now a numerical advantage is a nice thing, but don't start to party yet, blue fighter pilots, because for the sake of historical accuracy you would have an utterly stupid high command, forcing you to fly very close cover for the bombers most of the time. Meaning you would have to circle over your airfiled until all of you are up in the air, then try to find the bombers you will have to escort and then fly slowly beside them until you are ripped off by the attackers. And no, you would not be allowed to follow them but you would have to stay with the bombers. But naturally not very long, because very soon you would run out of fuel (sorry no airstart!) and return, leaving the bombers defenseless.

    Doesn't sound like a lot of fun ...

    But that's not all. Don't forget the weather. CloD allows to create bad weather. Still on MP Servers the sun is always shining and there is very little wind, because lots of players would complain and leave. We all know that the channel is not exactly like the maledives climate wise, so there would have to be about 3 days out of 4 when you are just allowed to sit in your parked plane, waiting for the sky to clear up.

    Doesn't sound like a lot of fun ...

    Now come to think of it: I don't believe the BoB was considered to be a lot of fun for the people caught in it.
    They were not playing games.
    We are.
    And that's it for historical accuracy.

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    At the beginning of the Battle of Britain RAF had about 700 fighters.
    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    Oh, forget red bombing. That was not a real big part of the BoB.
    I'm sorry but you are completely wrong on both counts. I've no idea which source you got that information from but it's incorrect.

    There were over 1000 fighters available to RAF Fighter command at all times during the Battle of Britain.
    Source: https://ww2db.com/doc.php?q=309

    As for Bombers not taking part, how on earth did we destroy the invasion fleet building up at French and Belgian ports? Please read No 7 on the list here ....
    https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/8-thi...tle-of-britain

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    Re: Availability of the G50 on the Western Front.

    Quote Originally Posted by 334th_Padre View Post
    I'm sorry but you are completely wrong on both counts. I've no idea which source you got that information from but it's incorrect.

    There were over 1000 fighters available to RAF Fighter command at all times during the Battle of Britain.
    Source: https://ww2db.com/doc.php?q=309

    As for Bombers not taking part, how on earth did we destroy the invasion fleet building up at French and Belgian ports? Please read No 7 on the list here ....
    https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/8-thi...tle-of-britain
    I'm surely not an expert on this topic, but as far as I know the size of the German invasion fleet (at least the ships needed for the landing) matched the requirements set by the Kriegsmarine.
    So the German invasion fleet hasn't been destroyed at all, even though it has taken hits by the Bomber Command.

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