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Thread: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

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    For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Something that I've always said and repeated over the years...the Bf 110 was not so bad as depicted by the " Winners Propaganda " but was instead a quite good fighter if used in its original role...

    Although there have been some small improvements in patch 4.54 the aircraft, unfortunately, is still far from what it should be ( worst point about the Bf 110 in my opinion, in the game, is the very poor turning rate that it has actually ).

    The Bf 110, despite the general wrong idea by the RAF pilots that believe that the Bf 110 was a " flying pigeon ", was instead a good fighter with a very good turning rate ( instead of the flying brick we got in the game ) that could easily cope with the one of a Spitfire.

    Am I wrong? So can you explain how a Bf 110 was capable of shooting down 5 Spitfires during a single sortie during the BoB? Not bad for an aircraft that by the RAF virtual pilots it's defined a " flaw " no???!!!



    Quote

    Beginning in early September 1940, some German air units equipped with the twin-engined fighter plane Messerschmitt Bf 110 were withdrawn from the English Channel to be used as night fighters. Sometimes this has been regarded as a ‘degradation’ of the Bf 110.

    In fact, under heavy pressure from Hitler and the German population to put an end to the night raids against Berlin and other German cities, Göring chose to use his very best fighter plane, the Bf 110.

    This should come as a surprise to many, because a fairly common notion is that the Bf 110 didn’t suffice as a day fighter; that it performed poorly in combat; and because of this had to be assigned with fighter escorts of single-engined Bf 109s. However, none of this stands up to closer scrutiny.

    The twin-engined, long-range fighter Bf 110 was the result of the war games conducted under Göring’s supervision in the winter of 1933/34. These showed that the prevailing view by then that “the bombers will always get through” – the notion that regardless of intercepting fighters and air defence a sufficient number of bombers always would get through to their assigned targets, where they were expected to cause enormous damage – was incorrect.


    In the summer of 1934, the leadership of the still secret Luftwaffe presented a study that suggested what at that time was quite revolutionary: a twin-engined fighter, heavily armed with automatic cannons as well as machine guns, to protect the bombers against enemy fighter interception. The idea was to dispatch these twin-engined fighter aircraft in advance, at a high altitude over the intended bombing target area, to clear the air of enemy fighters before the bombers arrived.

    In fact, when used in that way, the Messerschmitt Bf 110 was quite successful. Actually, the Bf 110 appears to have had a better ratio of shot down enemy aircraft to own combat losses than any other fighter type during the Battle of Britain. Yet in most accounts of the Battle of Britain, the accomplishments of the Bf 110 have been nearly totally neglected (although admittedly this is largely a result of the inaccessibility of sources on this aircraft). Investigations of the available material have enabled a completely different picture to be drawn of the Bf 110 during the Battle of Britain.

    Bf 110 fighter units sustained some very heavy losses on various occasions. In most cases, however, this was when the Bf 110 fighters were ordered to fly slow, close-escort missions to German bombers. In those cases, there was no difference between what the Bf 110 suffered and what the Bf 109 suffered. There are numerous cases where Bf 109 units were absolutely thrashed by RAF fighters because they had to fly on foolishly slow close-escort missions. In this way, Bf 110-equipped I./ZG 26 lost six aircraft over the North Sea on 15 August 1940, just as Bf 109-equipped I./JG 77 lost five aircraft on 31 August 1940, to pick just two examples.

    LINK: https://www.historyextra.com/period/...rce-luftwaffe/
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    I guess any aircraft used with flawed tactics could be said to be a poor performer - sort of like that Einstein quote about judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Had the 110 been used to its strengths with more frei jagd intruder tactics it might have had a better reputation.

    I highly doubt that the Bf 110 could match the turn radius of a Spitfire though, with its high wingloading (~ equal to or slightly higher than a 109, MUCH higher than a Spit relatively speaking). The 1940 RAE report on characteristics of the 110C states that at all altitudes the 110 was outturned by the Spit and Hurri although the advantage was less marked at higher altitude, which is consistent with what I see ingame.
    Personally I think the FM of the 110 in CloD is pretty much spot on, I don't think inferior turn performance prevents the 110 from gaining 5 kills in a sortie if it wanted to. Too many variables at play here - pilot skill on both sides, starting alts, surprise factor, numbers, etc.


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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_kiwiflieger View Post
    I guess any aircraft used with flawed tactics could be said to be a poor performer - sort of like that Einstein quote about judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Had the 110 been used to its strengths with more frei jagd intruder tactics it might have had a better reputation.

    I highly doubt that the Bf 110 could match the turn radius of a Spitfire though, with its high wingloading (~ equal to or slightly higher than a 109, MUCH higher than a Spit relatively speaking). The 1940 RAE report on characteristics of the 110C states that at all altitudes the 110 was outturned by the Spit and Hurri although the advantage was less marked at higher altitude, which is consistent with what I see ingame.
    Personally I think the FM of the 110 in CloD is pretty much spot on, I don't think inferior turn performance prevents the 110 from gaining 5 kills in a sortie if it wanted to. Too many variables at play here - pilot skill on both sides, starting alts, surprise factor, numbers, etc.
    At the risk of blowing smoke up my own arse - a few weeks ago i shot down 6 spit/hurris using front guns only in one sortie lone wolfing on ATAG server by flying the 110 to its strengths (speed surprise firepower knowing when to bug out etc) plus a bit of luck.

    But today not so good - Pattle set me on fire after i tried to turn fight with him and was very lucky to land the a/c. Wasnt flying the -110 to its strengths and Pattle out flew me pretty easily.

    And last weekend i relearned a good lesson not to do head ons or get bounced by Beaufighters. S Biggs!

    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Feb-02-2019 at 05:05.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Well frankly said I think that the main problem resides in the fact that, in this game, every piece of metal scrap marked RAF must have hyper performances...I'm still " amazed " how an aircraft ( the Beaufighter to make an example ) more longer ( 12,3 meters against the 12,6 meters of the Bf 110 ), heavier ( 7,072 kg against 4,500 kg of the Bf 110 ), slower ( 515 km/h against 560 km/h of the Bf 110 ) armed with 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons that works like a meatgrinder ( while instead while firing the 2 × 20 mm MG FF/M cannons against any aircraft they act as if they are paper balls glued with the spittle ) can outclimb, outturn and be faster ( except in the top dive speed maybe ) in respect to the the Bf 110.
    Add to this that the Bf 110 armoured plates and armoured windshield are totally missing on later variants, no chance to fire with the rear canopy closed or looking 360° degrees with the rear gunner and that it has a laughable in-game turn rate ( especially in respect to the " Big RAF Dragonflies we got around these days ) and that's " spot on " for you...mah...mistery of the faith....
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders; Feb-02-2019 at 06:17.
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    I feel your pain Molders. I guess ive just accepted that these are the cards we have been dealt (and i think they are pretty good re FMs etc but am not smart enough to know if they arent) and i have fun trying to make the best hand i can in the -110.

    Regarding turn rate - my approach if turn fighting is to try and keep the spit / hurri at ranges between 300-500m and try and bring my guns on them at these ranges. The -110 has the advantage in firepower / range over the spits/hurris at these ranges and even though they can turn at much greater rates this doesnt matter as much at these ranges. I have loaded one of front mgs totally with tracer and this has improved my accuracy at these longer ranges. Sometimes i get lucky and have blown off turning spit/hurri wings at these ranges even though the -110s turn rate is inferior.

    However once they get with 200-300 m their turn rate advantage poses big issues and its usually time to bug out at high speed and get in my rear gun and start sniping at them then.

    The Beaufighter is a real challenge as it has the firepower / range advantage so the above approach doesnt work so well. Still trying to figure out a way to deal with them. Being uber agressive is an approach i have been trying but at best its 50/50 re being successful.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    I feel your pain Molders. I guess ive just accepted that these are the cards we have been dealt (and i think they are pretty good re FMs etc but am not smart enough to know if they arent) and i have fun trying to make the best hand i can in the -110.

    Regarding turn rate - my approach if turn fighting is to try and keep the spit / hurri at ranges between 300-500m and try and bring my guns on them at these ranges. The -110 has the advantage in firepower / range over the spits/hurris at these ranges and even though they can turn at much greater rates this doesnt matter as much at these ranges. I have loaded one of front mgs totally with tracer and this has improved my accuracy at these longer ranges. Sometimes i get lucky and have blown off turning spit/hurri wings at these ranges even though the -110s turn rate is inferior.

    However once they get with 200-300 m their turn rate advantage poses big issues and its usually time to bug out at high speed and get in my rear gun and start sniping at them then.

    The Beaufighter is a real challenge as it has the firepower / range advantage so the above approach doesnt work so well. Still trying to figure out a way to deal with them. Being uber agressive is an approach i have been trying but at best its 50/50 re being successful.
    A couple of tips to increase the turn rate of the bf 110 in such situations: ( Also if I'm sure you already know them but just in case ):

    - When you need to turn trying to match the enemy evasive turn\climb close the throttle for the time needed. Doing so in the right way you can easily point your guns inside his turning circle\climb a be prepared for a quite easy deflection shoot
    - Use the elevator trim extensively ( especially toward the UP position )
    - When the enemy starts to maneuver by turning instead of trying to follow his turn use the high lag roll so you can easily turn inside his turn circle also if he has an aircraft with a better turn rate

    Regarding the Beaufighter...I agree that is a very nasty client ( but I remain convinced that this is only due to the hyper performances of the plane ) somehow so far I've noted that the only 4 things that works against it are:

    - Extend ( its max dive speed is slower in respect to the Bf 110 one )
    - Treat it as if it is a Spitfire and you are in a Bf 109...force him to follow you in a vertical spiral climb and it will be not able to follow you ( if he has no more energy\speed than you )...larger wings deplete energy faster...
    - Every RAF plane in the game have a superior turn rate but an inferior roll rate. If in trouble make an Hartmann Roll and it will be very hard for him to put its guns on you...and 99% of the times he will overshoot you too...
    - Be aggressive and attack first

    Everything else attempted ineffective so far...in any situation where the energy\tactical situation is similar the Beau is superior everywhere ( and that's where, in my opinion, the game is not correctly set )
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders; Feb-02-2019 at 06:27.
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Just some more Luftwhining, based on anecdotes or unverified claims …

    All the Luftwaffe fighters (luckily) suffered from piss poor tactics because the commanders in chief did not understand what is needed for strategic bombing and had wet dreams about the powers of ‘self defending bombers’.

    Let’s just hear what someone thought about it, who was there (in quite a prominent role):

    „Diese Begleitschutz-Aufgaben hätten eigentlich den Zerstörern (Me 110) zufallen sollen. Diese Waffe war ja eigens für diese Aufgaben geschaffen worden, denen der Jäger wegen seines zu geringen Aktionsradius nicht gewachsen war. Doch zeigte es sich bald, daß die Me 110 dazu noch weniger geeignet war als die Me 109. Oft konnten sie sich der englischen Jäger nicht anders als durch bilden eines Abwehrkreises erwehren, in welchen sie sich langsam zurückziehen oder von uns rausgehauen werden mußten. Es kam nach und nach soweit, daß wir Jagdschutz auch noch für den Zerstörerbegleitschutz fliegen mußten, - eine wirklich nicht mehr sinnvolle Angelegenheit! Man hätte am besten daran getan, die Me 110 nunmehr aus dem Einsatz zu ziehen. Ein schwerer Entschluss, zu dem man sich erst viel später, nach erheblichen Verlusten, durchrang.“

    Adolf Galland, Die Ersten und die Letzten - Jagdflieger im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Flechsig Buchvertrieb, genehmigte Lizenzausgabe für Verlagshaus Würzburg GmbH & Co KG, 2007, 93-94.

    My translation:
    ‘These escort duties should have been falling to the destroyers (Me 110). This weapon originally was designed for just this tasks, for which the fighters were not suitable because of their inadequate range. But soon it showed that the Me 110 was even less suited for this, than the Me 109. Frequently they could only fend off English fighters by flying in a defensive circle, in which they culd slowly retreat or had to be saved by us. In the end we had to fly additional fighter escort for the destroyers escorting the bombers – a pretty senseless undertaking! It would have been best to withdraw the Me 110 from field duty. A difficult decision, which was taken much later, after suffering heavy losses.’

    There are some pilots here who can down almost anything and anybody flying 110s, G50s or even, Blennies or Tigermoths.
    I truly admire their skills (and often suffer from them). But when I’m shot down it’s usually due to my incapacity, and I don’t need to blame the game for my lack of skills.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Just some more Luftwhining, based on anecdotes or unverified claims …

    All the Luftwaffe fighters (luckily) suffered from piss poor tactics because the commanders in chief did not understand what is needed for strategic bombing and had wet dreams about the powers of ‘self defending bombers’.

    Let’s just hear what someone thought about it, who was there (in quite a prominent role):

    „Diese Begleitschutz-Aufgaben hätten eigentlich den Zerstörern (Me 110) zufallen sollen. Diese Waffe war ja eigens für diese Aufgaben geschaffen worden, denen der Jäger wegen seines zu geringen Aktionsradius nicht gewachsen war. Doch zeigte es sich bald, daß die Me 110 dazu noch weniger geeignet war als die Me 109. Oft konnten sie sich der englischen Jäger nicht anders als durch bilden eines Abwehrkreises erwehren, in welchen sie sich langsam zurückziehen oder von uns rausgehauen werden mußten. Es kam nach und nach soweit, daß wir Jagdschutz auch noch für den Zerstörerbegleitschutz fliegen mußten, - eine wirklich nicht mehr sinnvolle Angelegenheit! Man hätte am besten daran getan, die Me 110 nunmehr aus dem Einsatz zu ziehen. Ein schwerer Entschluss, zu dem man sich erst viel später, nach erheblichen Verlusten, durchrang.“

    Adolf Galland, Die Ersten und die Letzten - Jagdflieger im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Flechsig Buchvertrieb, genehmigte Lizenzausgabe für Verlagshaus Würzburg GmbH & Co KG, 2007, 93-94.

    My translation:
    ‘These escort duties should have been falling to the destroyers (Me 110). This weapon originally was designed for just this tasks, for which the fighters were not suitable because of their inadequate range. But soon it showed that the Me 110 was even less suited for this, than the Me 109. Frequently they could only fend off English fighters by flying in a defensive circle, in which they culd slowly retreat or had to be saved by us. In the end we had to fly additional fighter escort for the destroyers escorting the bombers – a pretty senseless undertaking! It would have been best to withdraw the Me 110 from field duty. A difficult decision, which was taken much later, after suffering heavy losses.’
    A: For God sake don't call it Me 110!

    B: As you told...unconfirmed anecdotes...this quote, by my point of view, can be easily put together with the one stating that Galland said that to win the BoB he needed a Spitfire when asked by his superiors ( Historical false well demonstrated that instead, the 98% of RAF lovers claim to be as " pure truth " )

    But when I’m shot down it’s usually due to my incapacity, and I don’t need to blame the game for my lack of skills.
    Your life, your rules. I can assure you that here, with 5600 hours of flight in the Bf 110, althrough I have not the pretension of be infallibile or the best Bf 110 pilot around, I think that I have the necessary experience so I can evaluate the situation pretty well and it's not a question of lack of skills... ( I hope...otherwise shooting down 250 RAF planes in the Bf 110 on the ATAG server in one month should have been hard to be done... )
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders; Feb-02-2019 at 06:46.
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    [QUOTE=Werner " Blauer Teufel " Mölders;328088]

    Am I wrong?


    Quote



    Yes.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Werner " Blauer Teufel " Mölders View Post
    A: For God sake don't call it Me 110!
    I didn't. It was a qoute. Galland called it Me 110, just as all the Luftwaffe pilots did.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Enjoying this interesting and lively discussion (as i do most discussions here).

    Thanks to all for contributing, and for keeping it civil!

    I love this place!
    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Do you have any sheets for the turning circles of the Bf 110?
    I found some wwiiaricraftperformance, but the quality is so bad I am not able to read them.
    And for the Beaufighter? The power/weight ratio with boost cut out of the Beauf is way better than the 110. You also need to compare the Loading/Fuel


    I've read that the spitfire had to climb with 2700 at 30min boost.
    Flying with higher rpm and steep climb would have caused cooling issues, so it's limited to 5min for 6 1/4 psi 3000rpm while climbing steep and that the Spitfire would overheat on hot summer on the ground idling.
    I couldn't find anything about a 109 having cooling issues on the ground, the 109 was able to cool from 94° with ~1100 rpm a hot engine after full throttle engine testing according to the manual, no mention about hot summer.

    However a note from the Wing Commander flying the 109s against Spits and Hurries where the 109 was way weaker and bad performing at full throttle and that it's engine reaching 120° water, which is actually quite interesting that this 109 didn't fail on him doing these flight tests.
    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...hurri-turn.pdf
    Quite an evidence that the 109 can handle 120° Water during tight turn fights and climbs.

    Theres a note from Headquarter Fighter Command 5 min limit is 3000 at 6 1/4 psi or more, that means that flying longer than 5 min these limits and had to be reported duo to high engine failures. Using boost cut out is another story, pilots had lots of engine failures duo to the use of boost cut out with little excuse exceeding the engine limitation already at 6 1/4 psi and 3000 rpm.
    Found on spitfireperformance http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dowding.pdf

    As you see the problem is the ridiculous amount of additional boost with the boost cut out the RAF planes use (Hurry, Spit, Beauf, Blennheim).
    If RAF and the German would use 30 min power settings, the german planes would not only fly faster, they also follow your claims that the 110 wasn't that bad.
    Of course the 109s shouldn't use take off power everytime during flight, but it's literally not even called "emegency power" for the early german planes, its called short increased power and is ment to be used for take off, unlike the RAF planes.
    Last edited by Tibsun; Feb-02-2019 at 13:25.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    [QUOTE=Arthursmedley;328100]
    Quote Originally Posted by Werner " Blauer Teufel " Mölders View Post

    Am I wrong?


    Quote



    Yes.

    Nuts!
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibsun View Post
    Do you have any sheets for the turning circles of the Bf 110?
    I found some wwiiaricraftperformance, but the quality is so bad I am not able to read them.
    I have to search my database I should have something about it if I remember correctly ( the only problem will be to find it in my typical mess )
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Werner " Blauer Teufel " Mölders View Post
    ( the only problem will be to find it in my typical mess )

    Then I will recommend this book to you Werner.....


    Capture 1.PNG

    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Visit the Robert Mölders Facebook Group ( Left-click on the red link on the left to open the relative page! )
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  25. #17
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    My opinion on this topic:

    There are many sim pilots who enjoy totally immersing themselves into one particular aircraft or one side. They spend insane amounts of time mastering every aspect of their plane and become formidable aerial opponents, often in aircraft that are not the most powerful - which just shows even more so how much effort was put into practicing tactics and maneuvers and flight in their one plane. There are Blenny experts, Hurricane aces, 109 experten, and of course, 110 addicts among many more.

    However - a big however -

    Often, when I am on teamspeak, I will hear someone who only flies one side or one type of plane complain about how the other side has it better or their side has it worse. Spitty pilots complain about their inability to outclimb "rocketship" 109s, and the weak bullets of their .303s compared to the 20mm MG-FFs which will end their day in one single shell. On the other side, I hear 109 drivers complain about how they can't catch Spitfires, or how 1 .303 round nicked their rads yet their cannon burst "didn't do a thing!"

    This is for the OP: Whenever I log onto the server, I usually select the side with fewer players on at the time. What that means is that I have gotten to know the combat characteristics of 109s and Spits for example, and from both the giving and receiving ends of each. I think that there's a LOT to be gained from flying and learning your opponent's aircrafts. I used to fly only red when I just started but I became a much better pilot after I started flying blue as well. For your own good, I'd take a week or two to learn the Beaufighter and see how you do against 110s - maybe you'll confirm what you think already, perhaps you will discover some new information.

    In terms of the FMs being correct or not - there is no such thing as a "perfect" FM, but I think that TF has got the FMs of the sim pretty darn close. So aspects such as the 110 turning circle compared to those of the rest of the aircraft in the sim is most likely an accurate representation of real life.

    TLDR: Everyone needs to go fly planes from both sides! It's fun and you learn stuff!

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    With all due respect to Molders:

    TF does not consider anecdotal accounts when designing Flight Models.

    Undoubtedly in certain instances good pilots in Bf-110C's did well against British fighters. But overall, if you look at the historical record, the Bf-110C was not a match for single engined types.

    And that corroborated by the raw technical data.

    The Bf-110C-4 had both inferior powerloading and 25% inferior wing loading to the Spitfire... even the C-4N only comes close in powerloading... does not better the 100 octane versions of the Spitfire.... and is worse than the standard variants in wingloading.

    Combined these discrepancies with the fact the Bf-110 had an inferior drag coefficient, and combine that inferior drag coefficient with the additional fact it had a much larger wingspan, and you have a recipe for a much larger total flat plate area... i.e. the total drag which must be overcome was far worse than either the Spitfire or Hurricane... and that total drag must be overcome by inferior powerloading and wingloading. As soon as the aircraft enters a high AoA turn, and adds induced drag, (which again is multiplied by the larger wingspan and inferior drag coefficient) these disadvantages multiply themselves.

    What advantages aerodynamically did the Bf-110 have? A milder stall due to the installation of wing slats... the ability to pull higher AoA temporarily at the penalty of very high speed/energy loss... but that does not mean the stall speed was lower than the Spitfire or Hurricane... stall speed was approx. 10 mph faster in fact... the advantage the slats gave was simply the approach to the stall... and stall recovery... both were predictable and easy to control.

    The Bf-110 had the same aerofoil design as the Bf-109... slight increase in thickness in the 110's gave better controllability at high AoA, at a penalty in higher drag at lower AoA's. So lets ask the question: If the 109's were unable to sustain turn with the Spitfires, how would it be by any stretch of the imagination be a possibility for the Bf-110 to do so? When the Bf-110 had higher wingloading and higher overall drag than the 109's?

    The fact is, as the Germans learned with the Bf-110, and as the Americans learned later even with the excellent P-38 design, a twin engined fighter has certain built in disadvantages which mean they are not competitive in the area of overall maneuverability. Only when the twin type has clear advantages in speed, (as was the case with the P-38 in the Pacific or the case in the case of the Bf-110 in Poland 1939 or France 1940 versus poor performing types like the Pzl's or Morane) are they able to compete.

    As far as advice in how to fly the Bf-110's:

    - Disadvantages are less at higher altitudes as the Spitfires/Hurricanes can no longer generate +12 boost

    - Make sure to have an altitude advantage before engaging

    - Try to maneuver vs the Spitfire/Hurricanes at higher speeds... turnrates are closer

    - Get a good rear gunner and give them opportunities by diving away and forcing the Spitfires/Hurris to make themselves easy targets by following nose to tail

    - Get a good wingman
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Feb-02-2019 at 20:42.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibsun View Post
    Do you have any sheets for the turning circles of the Bf 110?
    I found some wwiiaricraftperformance, but the quality is so bad I am not able to read them.
    And for the Beaufighter? The power/weight ratio with boost cut out of the Beauf is way better than the 110. You also need to compare the Loading/Fuel


    I've read that the spitfire had to climb with 2700 at 30min boost.
    Flying with higher rpm and steep climb would have caused cooling issues, so it's limited to 5min for 6 1/4 psi 3000rpm while climbing steep and that the Spitfire would overheat on hot summer on the ground idling.
    I couldn't find anything about a 109 having cooling issues on the ground, the 109 was able to cool from 94° with ~1100 rpm a hot engine after full throttle engine testing according to the manual, no mention about hot summer.

    However a note from the Wing Commander flying the 109s against Spits and Hurries where the 109 was way weaker and bad performing at full throttle and that it's engine reaching 120° water, which is actually quite interesting that this 109 didn't fail on him doing these flight tests.
    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...hurri-turn.pdf
    Quite an evidence that the 109 can handle 120° Water during tight turn fights and climbs.

    Theres a note from Headquarter Fighter Command 5 min limit is 3000 at 6 1/4 psi or more, that means that flying longer than 5 min these limits and had to be reported duo to high engine failures. Using boost cut out is another story, pilots had lots of engine failures duo to the use of boost cut out with little excuse exceeding the engine limitation already at 6 1/4 psi and 3000 rpm.
    Found on spitfireperformance http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dowding.pdf

    As you see the problem is the ridiculous amount of additional boost with the boost cut out the RAF planes use (Hurry, Spit, Beauf, Blennheim).
    If RAF and the German would use 30 min power settings, the german planes would not only fly faster, they also follow your claims that the 110 wasn't that bad.
    Of course the 109s shouldn't use take off power everytime during flight, but it's literally not even called "emegency power" for the early german planes, its called short increased power and is ment to be used for take off, unlike the RAF planes.
    Overheat modeling for all aircraft will be changed in TF 5.0. (including the TF 4.5 aircraft) Right now it is too easy on the pilots at lower altitudes... which affects the +12 boost aircraft positively.

    The German takeoff power was theoretically only supposed to be used for takeoffs... but in fact as everyone knows, pilots will use whatever advantage they have... to hell with the rules.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Here you go, everything about the 110 (and other fighters):

    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me110/me110.html

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasmorg View Post
    Here you go, everything about the 110 (and other fighters):

    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me110/me110.html
    As I said, the quality is so bad, I can't read the turn time and circles sheet, can you?

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibsun View Post
    As I said, the quality is so bad, I can't read the turn time and circles sheet, can you?
    Yep it is possible. If you have trouble in reading it save the image and then use an image editor to zoom or edit the image so you can change the contrast and colours

    Sample:

    me110c-kurvenradien-flaps (1).jpg
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders; Feb-03-2019 at 09:37.
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Werner " Blauer Teufel " Mölders View Post
    Yep it is possible. If you have trouble in reading it save the image and then use an image editor to zoom or edit the image so you can change the contrast and colours

    Sample:

    me110c-kurvenradien-flaps (1).jpg
    Great! Can you decode a single line? I see as much as before.

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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter


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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tibsun View Post
    Great! Can you decode a single line? I see as much as before.
    Yes. You need only to work a bit on it with an image editor.

    Quick Sample ( Click on the image below to enlarge it )

    me110c-kurvenradien-flaps (1).jpg
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    Re: For the ones that still belive that the Bf 110 was worthless as a fighter

    I see you guys are image editor pros.


    Heres my version:

    me110c-kurvenradien-flaps.jpg

    Sorry I was a bit too unprecise.

    Do you know what the W stands for?

    You saw the values, it might be the roll since it doesn't go past 90 which as roll would always give you a sink rate, which can't be avoided with elevator.

    The R is for radius in meters, how can the outcome be understood?

    So after some thoughts, W might be rollrate + corresponding elevator to keep the same the altitude? This is what makes more sense to me.

    In one of the sheets the times for the fastest turn of the sheets starts at 5 seconds 5900kg with 72.5°.
    The odd: The turn time for the 5900kg at 65° is slower than 6490kg.
    There are some odds, some of them is flown and some might be calculated, can't decode the math fomulas or their meanings.
    Last edited by Tibsun; Feb-04-2019 at 16:08.

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