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Thread: elephant in the cockpit

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    ATAG Member ATAG_JackMaxx's Avatar
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    elephant in the cockpit

    I have been flying CLOD for just over a year now so I feel competent to comment on two of the issues that bugs me about the game....

    spotting: TFS please make spotting a little easier, people want to play at 2560/1440 and above.

    German engineering or over engineering. I believe that the 109 110 and G50 have been over engineered in game and outperform the British planes by an unrealistic margin. It is not something easy to prove without in game stats. this is something that i feel team fusion need to look at in the next release.

    I really like this game and community and offer this opinion not to crises but to stimulate discussion .

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    Supporting Member DRock's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    I have been flying CLOD for just over a year now so I feel competent to comment on two of the issues that bugs me about the game....

    spotting: TFS please make spotting a little easier, people want to play at 2560/1440 and above.

    German engineering or over engineering. I believe that the 109 110 and G50 have been over engineered in game and outperform the British planes by an unrealistic margin. It is not something easy to prove without in game stats. this is something that i feel team fusion need to look at in the next release.

    I really like this game and community and offer this opinion not to crises but to stimulate discussion .
    I have to disagree with a few things here.

    My spotting is pretty good @2560/1440. At least 10km if not more, although my screen is a 55”.

    If you are saying that the G50 can outfly a hurricane, you just aren’t paying attention. Even most good Spitfire pilots will knock me out of the sky. Ask Moose about his encounters with my g50.
    In this sim, the better pilot is usually going to win the fight, no matter what plane your opponent flies.

    Jack, it’s time you fly Axis for a while. You’re lacking perspective, and with only a year of flying here compared to 5+ years from a lot of us vets here, you need more practice.

    You’re a decent pilot, and improving daily, but if you keep getting shot down or outperformed, the problem is in your cockpit.

    This is a conversation that keeps coming up, and it usually creates a lot of negative reactions.


    I’d be more than happy to accustom you to the Italian Stallion, and wing up.
    Last edited by DRock; Mar-28-2019 at 17:10. Reason: Spelling

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    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by DRock View Post
    the better pilot is usually going to win the fight, no matter what plane your opponent flies.
    1000% true

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    Supporting Member No.119_Bruv's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    can't agree with the OP fully,

    I routinely wreck all of the said aircraft 1vs1. Providing they are willing to engage on my terms and I see them early enough.

    Problem is most blue guys left playing are of a high calibre. Throw in 2 working as a pair and you'll need 3 spitfires (or more) to match them.

    The only FM change I was a little disheartened about is the hi-alt Spit IIa performance, pre-patch it used to catch and stomp anything over 25-30k which was a rare blessing being used to seeing 109 exhaust fumes whizzing off into the sunset, now the 109E4-N can escape at most, if not all altitudes, its so marginal on deck the change wasn't worth it IMO.

    If it was faster then it was faster I'll submit to the superior knowledge and expertise of Buzzsaw and his team.

    The two things that annoy me the most, puffs of white cloud at slow stall speeds graphic anomaly and hit sounds. Just put some sort of noise in there to indicate your taking or having damage done.

    Funny you mention the stats it will be good to see them back again (over a year now). Fatal has them all working great on his servers.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Laser's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I feel your pain JackmaXX.

    those G50's are like annoying wasps that buzz around you at a picnic, coming in every so often to sting you

    Here is an encounter I had early last year with Drock, Pizzapilot and yotheguy flying G50's

    I believe the mistakes I made on this occasion were trying to turn fight with them (apparently, unlike a 109, the G50 out turns a spitfire), and staying to fight in the first place as I was out numbered to begin with, although as you will see I had help towards the end, too late though.

    I now have 3 years experience flying cliffs of Dover on the red side, mostly Spits and Hurri's and I am still getting shot down all the time.


    I agree with the above, that the better pilot will prevail, whatever he is flying.


    A spitfire, and to a lesser extent a Hurricane ought to out perform a G50, but 109's are a different proposition.


    A good Spit or Hurri pilot will shoot down a lesser skilled pilot in a 109, but in my opinion, if the two pilots are of equal skill and flys to his aircrafts strengts, the 109 will have the advantage.


    It outruns, out climbs and outguns the RAF fighters every time.


    Having said that, I think that the 109 is a more difficult aeroplane to learn to fly and fight with in the first place than the RAF fighters, and yes, I have briefly tried it, and the 110 too.


    As for contact spotting, I too have had trouble with that, but it is of course largely dependant on individual set ups

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    Supporting Member No.119_Bruv's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Don't get confused between instantaneous turn rate and sustained turn rate. The Spitfires sustained turn rate beats all within clod. (minus stringbags)

    Soon as the G50 pulls hard and bleeds energy it can't magically restore it like the 109 can with it's weaker engine. You have to adopt a different style when fighting them sucker them in, give them a quick few turns and then start using your better engine to fly circles around them whilst adding some climbs in. The g50, as soon as you get it into the vertical is a pig! and it also doesn't roll very well when slow. Start bnzing them if you have too. I know this is pretty much an alien concept to most red pilots but it can be used to good effect against slower stuff.

    But flying blue will help you observe all of these weaknesses 1st hand.
    Last edited by No.119_Bruv; Feb-09-2019 at 07:12.

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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Hi Lase...I have to agree with Bruv on the G50. Don't get me wrong, I still have a very healthy respect for the G50, especially if it's being flown by good pilots such as Drock, Snargle (Fear the Puss!) or Tibson, but that respect forces me to fly differently. Basically, I believe we have to think and fly like a 109 pilot. Dive in for quick B n Z attacks but don't stay down with them....climb away again for another try. If they do get behind you, go into a gentle curving climb and you WILL pull away but only if you don't let the G50 get too close! It's an exhilerating way to fly and I have had a little success with it...though as I say I am still learning and still don't trust those G50's. The devil's aircraft!

    As for the Spitfire II. Before the patch, provided I had the height advantage, I could stay above most 109's and they couldn't get close enough to fire. (I remember a long flight against Yellow and his Wingman, up at 26 000 feet,on Lead farm, before the new patch.) Now, no matter what settings I have, I can't catch the E4N...even E4's are a real challenge. They outclimb me everytime. As Knighty says 'they go up like lifts!' So we sit there two thousand feet below them, waiting for the next attack and, of course, when you lose them in the sun.......!

    However, on the deck...going flat out, I can sometimes catch an escaping 109 if I have boost on and reduce RADs to 30/35%...but this is tricky and you have to watch the temps carefully and be ready to open it up again...and, of course, if he climbs, wack RAD's back to 100%. I think the 109 pilot's are quite surprised when we succeed in catching them this way.

    So, we have to be up at 26 000 already...... and then come down on the 109's...... but once you've thrown away your height your advantage is gone because from that point on on the 109 will probably outclimb you. (Having said that, I still have a lot to learn about retaining my energy!)

    Nothing I read in the Battle of Britain pilot's memoirs suggests that the 109 always outclimbed the Spit....so is it accurate? I don't know...but I tell you what...I'm not giving up. It's a great challenge and every now and again us Red's really do put the wind 'up 'em! This is still a blindingly good flightsim and I can't get enough!

    We're going to keep at it.............. so JG 52 better start quaking in their collectiver lederhosen! (Ha ha....NOT!)
    Last edited by ATAG_Marlow; Feb-09-2019 at 11:52.

  10. #8
    ATAG Member ATAG_Laser's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I agree Marlow, we have a gem of a flight sim here in Cliffs of Dover, and an awesome community here too.

    What we have to remember here is that, whatever any of us thinks of the respective flight models, Cliffs of Dover is still probably the most realistic combat flight sim experience we can get, although I have yet to try any of the others.

    The trade off from this of course is that it is very difficult to master. As we are always telling our new players, the learning curve is very steep.

    This , for me, is like any other game or sport that one could take up. With practice, and coaching / tuition you will gradually improve, but ultimately you will only reach a level that your own personal skill set will allow you to reach.


    I have heard many skilled players complain that the skill level of the AI in the game isn't set high enough, but personally I still find fighting against AI 109's challenging, which is a good thing, but at least these contests are not one sided as they are when going up against human flown 109's on the server.


    I am currently reading Battle of Britain pilot Geoffrey Wellum's Autobiography 'First Light' in which he recall's a 'Weeding out' process during training so that only the very best pilots got to become fully fledged fighter pilots.


    We are lucky here in as much as we all get the chance to fly fighters, regardless of ability, not to mention the fact that if we lose our virtual life we can just respawn and start again, but I fear that if this was for real, I would've got the dreaded 'Bowler Hat' long before actually getting my wings

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    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    A valid point made is that the skill level of most human players (well, except me) is very high by now.
    This makes it very hard for newcomers, which might be realistic but maybe not very good for business.

    Also flying alone is nothing that is advisable for any but the best.
    Again a problem for those who don't know yet, what a welcoming bunch we are.

    I think the best we can do is to offer teaming up and training and team work over and over again to anybody who wants to listen.
    For example it's great to hear that from the Tiger Moth events some kind of training resulted (if only I had the time to attend ...)


    But please remember that there is more to fly than just fighters.
    I never would have thought that ground pounding in a Blenny or a Beau can be so much fun.
    And them the combinations of Spit and Beau / 109 and 110. There is a lot to explore!

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Laser's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Hi Derda,

    As you may or may not be aware, I regularly fly with a group of others

    I am one of the infamous 'Rag Tag's'

    When complaining about continually being shot down I often hear 'You need to get yourself a wingman'

    I often fly with a wingman, sometimes several wingmen, but I always manage to lose them and end up flying alone.

    I have indeed flown Blennies occasionally, and have had some success hitting airfields with them, even though it's nearly always a one way trip.

    Trying to find inland targets though, with my navigational skills, is challenging to say the least.

    Just recently I have also been trying out the Beaufighter. It is a great aeroplane to fly, and packs a punch if you manage to get anything in your sights, but again, performance wise they are outclassed by 109's. I guess you need a wingman in a Spitfire covering you!!

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    Supporting Member QB.Creep's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I don't remember who I heard say this (and I wish I did so I could give them credit), but it was something to the effect of:

    "You know the game is balanced when both sides complain that the other has an unfair advantage."

    Every plane has strengths and weaknesses, and if the pilot flying it knows how to apply those strengths and compensate for those weaknesses, they will win the day. Oh yeah, having thousands of hours of time in the sim and flying with a wingman doesn't hurt either.

    Let me also say that I am definitely guilty of muttering under my breath when a 109 climbs away from me in my Spit, or when a Spit TURRRRNS for days and I can't line up a shot. I frequently need to remind myself that when I see my wrecked plane floating in the channel, there is only one person to blame for the outcome.

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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Ah i remember these ole chestnuts...

    "The 109s are definately overpowered....or was it the spitfires....cant remember but they are.....unless im flying them then they and definately underpowered......with a glass jaw.......and bent cannon. Deffo Nerfed.

    And THAT guy who shot me down is DEFFO cheating....or was his unhistoric loadout (mine always historic Dewilde and AP in non synced guns all the way) or was "he" actually "them"? Either way its their or his fault. Not mine. Im an ace. Look at my AI count. Mahussive.

    And thats another thing, teamwork. Teams need banning. All this co-operation and teamwork is killing combat flight sims. Wheres the fun in working together? Thats fer sissys. Lone Wolfing is where its at.

    Its all about dogfighting. Turning and burning. All the ace accounts say that. How every kill only happened after a 15 minute dance. And everything should be equal or at least unequal to my benefit. Thats historic also.

    War is always equal with clear rules. Unless its not. But then you can always change sides. Thats also historic."



    The 109 is no ubercraft. It takes real skill, real SA and lots of hours to start to even get close to competant in it. I used to BS myself that i was an MP ace in the spit taking out noobs in their 109s. Then i spent a year trying to do the same in a 109 but simply couldnt. Makes the Hurri and spit feel like riding a bike with stablilisers on with a get out of jail feee card up your sleeve.

    Fly it for year then come tell us about those overpowered/overengineered Hurricanes.
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    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Laser View Post
    Hi Derda,

    As you may or may not be aware, I regularly fly with a group of others


    Trying to find inland targets though, with my navigational skills, is challenging to say the least.
    Hi Laser


    from many happy hours of flying with Highsea's Tours I'm well aware that you are a member of this outstanding example of an elite group of dedicated and truly exceptional pilots!
    I am always glad and honoured when me or our FG28 has the luck to fly with or occasionally against members of your group.

    As for navigational skills, I usually find it very helpful to stay behind a bit, so there is always someone else I can blame, when instead of Calais the Isle of Wight comes into sight ...

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    ATAG Member ATAG_JackMaxx's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I'm very happy that my initial mail has generated so many responses with so many different opinions....but they are still opinions. I hear the arguments regarding the level of skill and length of experience of the pilot, but there are many skillful and experienced pilots flying red. I would be interested to hear the informed opinions of the Team Fusion team, the histories I'm reading (wikpedia,) indicate that the G 50 in particular was outdated before 1939 and played not appreciable part in the Battle of Britain also the BF110 was out classed by the hurris and spits of 1940 and because of losses was relegated to a night fighter and fighter bomber role.

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    I'm very happy that my initial mail has generated so many responses with so many different opinions....but they are still opinions. I hear the arguments regarding the level of skill and length of experience of the pilot, but there are many skillful and experienced pilots flying red. I would be interested to hear the informed opinions of the Team Fusion team, the histories I'm reading (wikpedia,) indicate that the G 50 in particular was outdated before 1939 and played not appreciable part in the Battle of Britain also the BF110 was out classed by the hurris and spits of 1940 and because of losses was relegated to a night fighter and fighter bomber role.
    If you are having problems fighting a G-50 when flying a Spitfire, then you probably need to re-think your tactics. You cannot just automatically assume you can turn and burn vs a G-50... if one enters the fight with you with better 'E', then it will outturn your Spit. Spits do have advantages in climb and climbing turns... so other than diving away in a shallow dive to take advantage of your superior speed, that is the best option when trapped.

    The Hurricane is in some ways a better match for the G-50 as its initial turn is tighter than a Spitfire... although it does not sustain turn as well. A Hurricane can be pulled to very high Angles of Attack and can get inside a G-50's turn more easily. Of course, there are more planes in the sky than G-50's and against a well flown 109, a Spitfire is a better option than a Hurricane. It is the mix of G-50s and 109's which makes the Red side crazy as they have to be careful of being outturned, while at the same time being boomed and zoomed. Perhaps the Red side should make up combinations of Beaufighters and Spits? When the Gladiators and CR-42's arrive, both sides will be going crazy worrying about a biplane dropping into a fight late and with lots of 'E' and being all over their aircraft.

    Which is why flying disciplined and with wingmen to cover your six is imperative. One pass and out is often the best tactic... no matter what you are flying.

    The Bf-110 has already been discussed recently... with a 110 pilot complaining how his aircraft cannot compete with the Spits/Hurris... so if you are complaining you can't deal with a Bf-110, then you probably need to again consider your tactics.

    Regarding high altitude performance... the Spit IIA can deal with any 109 except the 109E-4N's at high altitudes... it has better performance than other 109 models. The E-4N and its DB601N engine does however, have an edge in climb at higher alts... as will the 109F's. If you are consistently being outperformed, then you are probably facing a 109 with an DB601N engine... the fact server builders allow unlimited use of them is not TF's fault... (E-4N's were approx. 5% of the 109's available) neither is it, (for Blue side complainers) TF's fault server builders allow unlimited numbers of Spit IIA's. (which were only introduced in late August and which totaled no more than 15% of the total Spits available during the BoB) The standard 109E-3/E-4 will also out perform the Spit IA 100 octane at higher altitudes as it did historically.

    Understanding the above, it is also worth mentioning, the Spit IIA will outturn any 109 at very high altitudes, including the E-4N if both aircraft start at the same altitude... it loses a lot less altitude in a turn... the 109's have to be handled very delicately at extreme altitudes or they will spin out. So if you start with an alt advantage over the 109's, they are at your mercy and will need to dive away.

    It is also worth mentioning that re. various pilot anecdotes... you can pick and choose whichever one you want to support your viewpoint... that is why they are not of much use. The hard data is what counts.

    Also remember most combat during the BoB took place at around 15,000 ft/4500 meters because that was the altitude the German bombers cruised at and bombed at.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Feb-09-2019 at 18:04.

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    Manual Creation Group ATAG_Ezzie's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Having flown the 'deathtrap' -110 for 5 years i think this stuff is more important than individual differences between aircraft performance for the most part

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

    If u can fly your aircraft to maximise its performance and follow these then you should do ok. The goal should be to avoid situations where the relative aircraft performance becomes the determining factor which isnt always possible. Requires a lot of discipline to do so - the 50 mission challenge was/is a good test of this.

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ight=Challenge


    Quote

    If followed assiduously, the Dicta tactics often led to an unseen approach for a surprise attack. As historical study has shown, thus getting in the first shot in an engagement guarantees a successful attack over 80% of the time.[9]

    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Feb-09-2019 at 18:22.

  20. #17
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    The Blitz Spitfires sustained climb performance VS the 109 bears no relationship to any of the figures produced at the time. The 109 is modelled unrealistically and has a significant advantage, to the point where a 109 is almost untouchable if it's being flown carefully. The vast majority of pilots on the Red side I have spoken to know this but rarely do I see anyone make the point publically.

    The 109 dives much better than it should as well, but I suppose that this can be offset by the fact that the Merlin engines negative G problem is over simplified by the simulation. Red pilots get a bit of a cough, black smoke and a loss of power, but in the real aircraft the negative G induced problems would also play merry hell with the CS airscrew until the engine revs sorted themselves out.

    I haven't flown the G.50 and don't want to. G.50's seem like flying tanks in terms of how much punishment they can take, but then they have an air cooled radial engine which is a lot more tolerant of battle damage than an inline watercooled vee.

    109's aren't easy to fly ( I gave up trying ) but this shouldn't exempt them from historical reality.

    The real elephant in the cockpit I can see is the long term health of the simulation. It's very difficult and frustrating to achieve a level of competence that stops you being shot down every 5 seconds. It has taken me 3 months and I have been flying PC flight sims for as long as there have been PC flight sims, as well as real world flying. The only thing that has got me this far is sheer bloody mindedness and the help of the squadron. If it hadn't been for that I would have written off the purchase price of Blitz and moved back to DCS a long time ago.The amount of people who play Blitz online is no more than a couple of 100 maybe ? The real hardcore pilots you could probably fit into a medium sized room if you could stop them squabbling long enough No-one is going to persevere with Blitz in single player for too long as the AI is so useless. This is going to have to change if Blitz is going to survive in the long term, but I don't have any ideas.

    None of the paragraph above is any responsibility of the developers, it's a matter for server owners. I don't know how they could fix the learning curve, or even if it's possible. I don't know how you'd keep the kill obsessed experten and aces out of a new players server, or how you'd persuade people to move on once they'd got some basic experience and begun to dominate the battles. I do know I see new players - maybe one a or two a week - getting slaughtered and not coming back.

    I may still migrate back to DCS and my cold war jets ( I only left thanks to 2.5 being so resource hungry - you need a bloody Cray supercomputer to run it ) and it'll be a shame because Blitz is about the Battle of Britain dammit - it looks fantastic and the flight models have a lovely fluid quality which isn't easy to explain. But hanging on the edge of a stall looking up into the sun gets boring after a while - you always feel like you are reacting to what the enemy is doing than dictating your own terms.

    All of the above are my personal opinions and shouldn't be taken as representative of the 119

  21. #18
    Ace Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    I believe that the [...] 110 have been over engineered in game and outperform the British planes by an unrealistic margin.
    I do not mean to offend you, be clear, but when I've read this sentence I'm literally fall down from the chair due to laughing...I'm rolling mate!!! Best banter of the last years!!! ( Forgive me... I'm an old Luftwaffe rascal and I haven't resisted )
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  23. #19
    Admin ATAG_Snapper's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Hi everyone,

    I’m enjoying this thread immensely - there are some very interesting perspectives from both sides of the aisle here. I just ask that, no matter how strongly we may disagree with another’s views, we keep the discussion civil and on track. There are ways to respectfully disagree without causing offence.

    Cheers!

    Snapper


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    ATAG Member ATAG_TCP's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I must say this is an interesting thread, and say it is plausible that the issues could be a combination of player skill and aircraft statistics.
    At the same time, I have not really found a major issue with the power differences, only once or twice. One was rather specific and chased a 109 around for nearly an hour about 2-3000ft below him. This I don't see as an issue however, namely because I was in a Hurricane, and the 109 was quite possibly an E-4N

    Being fully aware of the extra power that the 109s had with the Daimler engines these altitude problems have not been a major issue for me, when in doubt, modify your tactics.

    I did find it a rather valid topic beginning the reading of the topic, however I think Buzzsaw has made the situation fairly clear, and knowing that the E-4N does have that extra power (and many players do simply select the newest model machine when they fly) may be the main answer for these issues.

    I think that a ton of work has gone into every aspect of the sim myself, and know that in order to fine tune all of the variables to "photo" realism, would take even more effort. However I do think that the characteristics are pretty dang fine right now, and I certainly have not come across anything game breaking in my whole time of playing Cliffs, that is of course since TFS got a hold of it and the whole ability to play the flight sim was implimented!!!!
    "Props" to TFS!!!


    Could the characteristics be made more historically accurate? Probably, but at this point I think that these modifications would be far smaller than what we are presuming (more like a mouse than an elephant). I also bet there were RAF pilots in WWII who were trying to climb after a 109 who let out some form of exclamation along the lines of "Bloody hell," or a Luftwaffe pilot who was trying to out-turn a spitfire who said something like "For shizer's sakes!"

    Just fly the plane as you feel it can fly. Don't force it to do something it doesn't want to and "roll" with it as it comes. A bit like a lady
    (A hurri or spit wants to roll, not pitch; so roll it and don't pitch it. Pitching is a bit like a secondary control.)

    But in the end, just don't let Jerry get his angle on you and you will do just fine!

    O7

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Snarglepuss's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Once upon a time, long ago and far away.......I shot down a 109 with my Blennie
    I think I may have gotten a 110 also........been awhile.

    My Blue cousin Herr Schnaarglepussen even used his Stuka to bring down a Spitfire and a Hurri....

    Then there's these bomb things that can effect a players stats if one explodes on or near his aircraft...Perhaps the powers that be could
    ensure that luck has been coded into the game correctly and with historical accuracy and shared equally fairly among all players.....
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    For me the superiority of the 109 in terms of climb performance and outright top speed in many flight regimes is something that is close to ruining the Blitz experience, as I pointed out. But I've had my say on that - no point labouring it because some people will never agree.

    I couldn't agree that the 110 is unrealistic though. I don't have much hard evidence on it's flight performance ( unlike the 109 vs Spit and Hurri ) but the way it performs in game seems to mirror every account I've read about it in the Battle.
    It will ruin your day, but only if you allow it to - a bit like the G.50 but completely different

  27. #23
    Supporting Member 9./JG52_Meyer's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Having only just found this thread and read it all i thought i would add my comments. They are not meant to offend just my take on things from someone who loves this sim.
    Read on, digest and have a think about it.

    So.. i have flown this sim since 2013, joined a LW unit which broke up and
    helped form 9./JG52 immediately after the previous units demise.
    I flew in all the SOW campaigns until its end. Every minute of my time in this sim
    has been in a 109.

    When i started flying the 109,... above 7k it was a dog. The joystick flopped around
    in the hand like a wet noodle, the plane wouldn't turn with out falling out of the sky
    and it had no power at all including the 4N. Meanwhile most of the Spit and Hurri pilots were 2k higher
    flying loops and performing aerobatic stunts so there was much grumbling ,gnashing of teeth etc.
    But we still flew high and tried to fight them whether in ATAG server or SOW. In SOW trying to escort
    bombers which were at 6k to a target in London was really hard work because of the difference in performance
    in opposing machines ...see where im going with this. The EA would approach at 8/9k we would try to engage
    blah blah you get the picture.

    In ATAG server it was the same we would fly as a Staffel up in contails 7k and chase a lone Spit or Hurri around
    who was faster, he could climb away knowing he was in the realm of the Gods ...untouchable.
    Then the powers to be came out with the BIG equaliser the new patch . All of a sudden we could reach the thin clouds
    we could compete up high , not in a turning fight but in power, climb, speed . The things that had eluded us for 4 to 5 years
    were within our grasp. No more being mocked, no more eating the fast disappearing contrails of the EA leaving us in its wake.
    We filled our boots big time and slayed them all over the place... suddenly! empty skies . The penny had dropped, Johnny red
    who for years had been flying in the high skies with the advantage didnt fancy his chances anymore and dropped to the deck.
    WHOA! whats going on? this isn't right a 109 cant fly faster than me at high alt, a 109 cant climb higher than me in contrails
    im not having this. The bods who regularly flew red at high alt (they know who they are) were absent, so much so one hasn't been seen
    since 2 weeks after the patch came out , whats that 18 months?

    Then the snide comments come out in chat, look at them ,"Space force" always flying up high where they have the advantage. Hang on fellas
    where you been for the previous 5 years pre patch? either you only got the game when it got attached to the BOS thing and all the patches
    got ported to one dl on steam there fore making it easier to access and this in turn attracted hundreds more pilots who were /are oblivious to the
    changes in FM or you flew regularly pre patch knowing the advantages / disadvantages of BOTH plane sets and just plain didnt like it being evened up

    My take on it all is its just a game , you just got to fly your type of plane to its advantages they are never going to replicate the actual FM of the planes 100% so its a case of putting up with it i suppose
    as we had to previously and i quote a famous post that was put up this forum many years ago cant rem from who. It was in reply to a blue player
    moaning about the 109s rads leaking instantly all the time the reply from the reds was "Dont get shot then" .
    Look on the bright side fellas you reds are going to get cannon firing Spits its what you have craved since Pontius was a pilot, Go get em !!

    So there you have it lads my long winded take on things to do with the FM as they stand No offence is meant as i have said above . To wind people up
    or flame bods is not my style its meant as a genuine post from our side please take it as that.
    At the end of the day its the machine and how good the pilot is that will determine the outcome

    Hals und beinbruch
    Last edited by 9./JG52_Meyer; Mar-26-2019 at 15:11.

  28. #24
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Creep View Post
    I don't remember who I heard say this (and I wish I did so I could give them credit), but it was something to the effect of:

    "You know the game is balanced when both sides complain that the other has an unfair advantage."

    Every plane has strengths and weaknesses, and if the pilot flying it knows how to apply those strengths and compensate for those weaknesses, they will win the day. Oh yeah, having thousands of hours of time in the sim and flying with a wingman doesn't hurt either.

    Let me also say that I am definitely guilty of muttering under my breath when a 109 climbs away from me in my Spit, or when a Spit TURRRRNS for days and I can't line up a shot. I frequently need to remind myself that when I see my wrecked plane floating in the channel, there is only one person to blame for the outcome.
    This !

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  29. #25
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Hi everyone,

    There are ways to respectfully disagree without causing offence.
    I agree.
    so....

    I'm not sure what to do now...


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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by No.119_Squidly (VK-D) View Post
    For me the superiority of the 109 in terms of climb performance and outright top speed in many flight regimes is something that is close to ruining the Blitz experience, as I pointed out. But I've had my say on that - no point labouring it because some people will never agree.

    I couldn't agree that the 110 is unrealistic though. I don't have much hard evidence on it's flight performance ( unlike the 109 vs Spit and Hurri ) but the way it performs in game seems to mirror every account I've read about it in the Battle.
    It will ruin your day, but only if you allow it to - a bit like the G.50 but completely different
    I'm mostly a Hurricane pilot, and, let me tell you, I have a right good number of kills against 109s that I have coaxed into fighting on my terms. If they fly them right I can't touch them, and that's the way it should be. Cursing the 109 who booms and zooms you and then runs away is like cursing the fox who raids the henhouse or the raccoon who gets into your garbage. They are doing what they have to do to survive. Try to fight them on your terms, and run away when they have the advantage. Anything else and you get what you deserve. Keep in mind, the real pilots who went through this back in the Battle of Britain didn't get to re-spawn and fly again, they just died.
    As many before have said, it is just a game, but it is not designed to be balanced or fair, it is designed to be realistic.
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  31. #27
    Supporting Member 9./JG52_Meyer's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendy for the State View Post
    I'm mostly a Hurricane pilot, and, let me tell you, I have a right good number of kills against 109s that I have coaxed into fighting on my terms. If they fly them right I can't touch them, and that's the way it should be. Cursing the 109 who booms and zooms you and then runs away is like cursing the fox who raids the henhouse or the raccoon who gets into your garbage. They are doing what they have to do to survive. Try to fight them on your terms, and run away when they have the advantage. Anything else and you get what you deserve. Keep in mind, the real pilots who went through this back in the Battle of Britain didn't get to re-spawn and fly again, they just died.
    As many before have said, it is just a game, but it is not designed to be balanced or fair, it is designed to be realistic.
    what he said with knobs on
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  32. #28
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Meyer View Post
    what he said with knobs on
    Not just the regular knobs though.... you forgot about the little secret portal at the back of the flight cupboard.. the one where Mr Tumnus helps me into the seat of my freshly waxed and polished Hulkricane.

    But.... (Shhhhhh!)

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  33. #29
    Ace Bonditaria's Avatar
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I like this game!

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  34. #30
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    Re: elephant in the cockpit

    I think the one thing everyone is in agreement on from reading the various contributions to this thread is that Clod is a tremendous sim and has a great community playing and great people continuously improving it. There is no them and us.

    119_Squidgy crystallised the issue, which is the retention of new players. I am still convinced that the issues regarding differences in performance are valid, I don't however believe that this is an issue that immediately affects new players. the difference in skill and experience is the the real killer(pun intended). improving the ease with which aircraft are spotted would help here, playing at 1920 1080 res on a 55 inch screen shouldn't be necessary.

    The debate re the performance differences will no doubt continue and the pendulum may swing in the other direction and JG_52 will curse under their breath at the Hurris and Spits frolicking in the stratosphere 3000ft above as they chug along in their clapped out 109s harassed by Tiger moths flown by newbies (relax JG_42 its a dream,not a plan).

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