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Thread: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

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    Manual Creation Group ATAG_Ezzie's Avatar
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    Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    If you are looking for a change and/or not keen to fly fighters on a quiet ATAG server with little/no opposition then i can recommend trying your hand at high altitude level bombing.

    All you need to know is contained in the following 2 links and its very satisfying/challenging hitting tgts from high altitude, even on an empty server. The bombers are very immersive to fly with a good balance of buttons to push and things to do when doing high altitude bombing runs and the cockpits and crew positions are very well modelled. For example the He-111 is a big slow bomb truck but its very immersive sitting in the glazed nose mission planning, flying, navigating and bomb aiming etc. And shooting down enemy fighters from the top turret never gets old....

    https://www.theairtacticalassaultgro...flight_manuals

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ighlight=chuck

    There some good videos on how to bomb in the -111 as well (and no doubt the blenny and others) such as

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJBqQ6wj09U

    An investment of maybe 3-5 hours learning / practice should be enough to be reasonably competent at high altitude bombing of airfields and then once you are Ok with this you can then move on to more precise tgts and challenge yourself even more. I just tried to hit Canterbury railyards from 5000m on an empty server but only got 1 bomb from my 8 bomb salvo in the tgt area so i'll need to improve my bomb aiming to do better next time. But it was a satisfying sortie nonetheless.

    So if you are looking for something different but still want to scratch your COD itch then maybe give the high altitude bombing a try and see if you like it?

    Happy bombing!!

    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; May-04-2019 at 00:14.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    The Dreieckrechner DR-3 flight computer that can be printed out from the game files (under /Printable Airfields/DR3_Disk) is also a huge help for various tasks that bomber pilots do a lot of such as IAS/TAS calculations and solving distance/speed/time problems - a bit like a cardboard E6B. It also does wind drift calculations but I consider figuring out how that is done to be some form of witchcraft.



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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Once the Welli is out, even I will have to (give in to the perpetual nagging of some squad-mates and) try this

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_kiwiflieger View Post
    The Dreieckrechner DR-3 ...It also does wind drift calculations but I consider figuring out how that is done to be some form of witchcraft.
    Is not difficult, follow this example of VO101_Tom - the page is in Czech, but Google Chrome translation make understandable in English:

    http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-a...szamitasa.html

    Or if you understand French, follow this guide - is more detailed, unfortunately French (and German) is difficult for Chrome translate well: Dreieckrechner_Bex.zip

    There I post an example of DR-3 disk use in IL-2:GB (BoS), in what is need set only wind angle in bombsight adjust.

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...3/#entry223208
    Last edited by 1lokos; May-04-2019 at 13:40.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    If you are looking for a change and/or not keen to fly fighters on a quiet ATAG server with little/no opposition then i can recommend trying your hand at high altitude level bombing.

    All you need to know is contained in the following 2 links and its very satisfying/challenging hitting tgts from high altitude, even on an empty server. The bombers are very immersive to fly with a good balance of buttons to push and things to do when doing high altitude bombing runs and the cockpits and crew positions are very well modelled. For example the He-111 is a big slow bomb truck but its very immersive sitting in the glazed nose mission planning, flying, navigating and bomb aiming etc. And shooting down enemy fighters from the top turret never gets old....

    https://www.theairtacticalassaultgro...flight_manuals

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ighlight=chuck

    There some good videos on how to bomb in the -111 as well (and no doubt the blenny and others) such as

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJBqQ6wj09U

    An investment of maybe 3-5 hours learning / practice should be enough to be reasonably competent at high altitude bombing of airfields and then once you are Ok with this you can then move on to more precise tgts and challenge yourself even more. I just tried to hit Canterbury railyards from 5000m on an empty server but only got 1 bomb from my 8 bomb salvo in the tgt area so i'll need to improve my bomb aiming to do better next time. But it was a satisfying sortie nonetheless.

    So if you are looking for something different but still want to scratch your COD itch then maybe give the high altitude bombing a try and see if you like it?

    Happy bombing!!

    Ezzie
    A great idea, Ezzie! All the neccessary information in one place! Thanks for sharing!

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    I did a "translation" (of the French guide) from the part showing how adjust IAS to TAS and determine the wind angle and the drift caused in flight path, using DR-3 disk.

    The only part that remains a bit "confuse" (for me) is determine when then drift angle caused by wind should be added or subtracted to flight heading course.

    Wind angle in DR-3 disk.zip

    Since DR-3 is in metric system is suitable for bombers like He 111, Pe-2... For use in, e.g. a Blenheim, is need do additional conversions of plane instrument readings (MP/H to KM/H and foots to meters).

    BTW - A "flight plan" should be made before start the flight, not in middle of course, especially in plane where is required "multi-task" of player, that assume pilot, navigator, bombardier and gunners role.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post

    BTW - A "flight plan" should be made before start the flight, not in middle of course, especially in plane where is required "multi-task" of player, that assume pilot, navigator, bombardier and gunners role.
    I agree 1lokos re mission planning before flight. I turn on my engines and while they are are warming up i do my mission / flight plan. Here's an example (dont let the reds see it though....)

    mplan_1_2.jpg


    I then configure the bomb site based on my planned altitude/speed and salvo size/length and once i have done this the engines are warm enough to take off and off i go.

    The other thing i have learnt is to allow a sufficiently long bomb run (5 mins minimum - ~ 10 mins is a good length) from the initial point as there's a bunch of stuff that needs doing/adjusting once on the bomb run and anything less than 5 mins (for me) is too short and i often run out of time to set it all up accurately or forget a step (like arming bombs or opening the bomb bay - duoh!) when under time pressure. Just finding the tgt thru the bomb sight can take time especially for non-airfield tgts as well (this is one of the challenges i like i high altitude bombing).

    One thing I'm still struggling with is drift left and right of track at bomb release - my bombs seem to be consistently offset laterally when they hit and my site is drifting left/right prior to bomb release once it is in auto mode. I think there's a way to account for drift in the bomb site so am still experimenting with that to see if i can minimise the drift.

    A question - what bomb salvo length do you tend to use and what do the intervals that come up on the screen when you press the keys mean?

    ie '100m' - is this the distance between individual bombs in the salvo or is this the length of the complete salvo (ie the distance from bomb 1 to bomb 8 is 100m)? I havent quite figured this out yet and its somewhat important depending on what type of tgt i'm going for.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post

    The other thing i have learnt is to allow a sufficiently long bomb run (5 mins minimum - ~ 10 mins is a good length) from the initial point as there's a bunch of stuff that needs doing/adjusting once on the bomb run and anything less than 5 mins (for me) is too short and i often run out of time to set it all up accurately or forget a step (like arming bombs or opening the bomb bay - duoh!) when under time pressure. Just finding the tgt thru the bomb sight can take time especially for non-airfield tgts as well (this is one of the challenges i like i high altitude bombing).

    One thing I'm still struggling with is drift left and right of track at bomb release - my bombs seem to be consistently offset laterally when they hit and my site is drifting left/right prior to bomb release once it is in auto mode. I think there's a way to account for drift in the bomb site so am still experimenting with that to see if i can minimise the drift.

    A question - what bomb salvo length do you tend to use and what do the intervals that come up on the screen when you press the keys mean?

    ie '100m' - is this the distance between individual bombs in the salvo or is this the length of the complete salvo (ie the distance from bomb 1 to bomb 8 is 100m)? I havent quite figured this out yet and its somewhat important depending on what type of tgt i'm going for.

    Ezzie

    Try my bombsight practice mission, https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...downloadid=193 Practice makes perfect.

    From high altitudes I always drop everything. The intervals are the distance between the bombs, vary according to the blast radius of your bombs.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Oskar View Post
    Try my bombsight practice mission, https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...downloadid=193 Practice makes perfect.

    From high altitudes I always drop everything. The intervals are the distance between the bombs, vary according to the blast radius of your bombs.
    Great - thanks Oskar.

    Just downloaded the missions. Will try one of the Lofte 7 missions out later today hopefully and see how i go.

    Thanks

    Ezzie

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Great training aid Oskar!

    Here's some screen grabs from the basic Lofte7 mission that i just flew. Was more or less on the right track but had the salvo length set to 100m so the bombs impacted just short and then long. Will repeat with salvo distance reduced to see if i can get most of the bombs near the aim point.

    Slide1.JPGSlide2.JPGSlide3.JPGSlide4.JPGSlide5.JPG

    A couple of questions

    (a) In the info that came with the mission it said that a miss distance would be displayed 'in the hud'. I didnt see it when i was in the dorsal gunner's position - do i have to remain in the bomb sight to see the message?

    (b) When in auto mode with the bomb sight cross hairs fixed on a tgt / the ground does this show the impact point of the first bomb in the salvo or the last?

    Thanks again for this training aid. Will hopefully improve my aiming against precise tgts.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Getting closer - just got to figure out drift and how to account for it. Cross hairs right on dock but bombs dropped slightly to port. May not have been an issue on a land tgt as blast radius may still have caused damage. But would still like to figure it out.

    Salvo length was 20m between bombs which seem to drop in pairs.

    Slide1.JPGSlide2.JPGSlide3.JPG

    Fish for dinner i expect for the dock workers....

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    A couple of questions

    (a) In the info that came with the mission it said that a miss distance would be displayed 'in the hud'. I didnt see it when i was in the dorsal gunner's position - do i have to remain in the bomb sight to see the message?

    (b) When in auto mode with the bomb sight cross hairs fixed on a tgt / the ground does this show the impact point of the first bomb in the salvo or the last?

    Thanks again for this training aid. Will hopefully improve my aiming against precise tgts.

    Ezzie
    The distance to target is shown only after the bomb lands and goes off, this can take quite a while when you are that high.

    In the He 111 the aiming point is where the first bomb in the sequence will fall. For this mission I drop single bombs because I'm trying to get as close as possible to the target.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    Getting closer - just got to figure out drift and how to account for it. Cross hairs right on dock but bombs dropped slightly to port. May not have been an issue on a land tgt as blast radius may still have caused damage. But would still like to figure it out.

    Salvo length was 20m between bombs which seem to drop in pairs.

    Slide1.JPGSlide2.JPGSlide3.JPG

    Fish for dinner i expect for the dock workers....

    For wind, post #2. https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...t=wind+bombing

    In the 111 when dropping all 8, i always use 20m (as below 5k accuracy starts getting off if you use zero spread) I use the cross hairs to mark the last bomb in a string....they drop separately but may end up close together.

    For that target you could also try 32 50s with a 26 or 20m spread. If memory serves, use the cross hair as the 3/4 mark (1/4 above the mark)

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    (b) When in auto mode with the bomb sight cross hairs fixed on a tgt / the ground does this show the impact point of the first bomb in the salvo or the last?
    Ezzie
    I tested this for a long time with my He111 with 8x250kg bomb loaded on board. I'm sure that:
    1) when bomb serie delay set to 100m the length of the serie is ~750-800m for 8 x 250kg bombs (distance is little bit vary after game restart).
    2) when bomb serie delay set to 0m (or 4m), crosshair show the point of last bomb in serie. The length of the serie is ~200m for 8 x 250kg bombs.

    Lets see some pictures. In this test I fly always same altitude 4830m (+-10m) and speed 350kmh (+-5kmh) and my crosshair always stabilized on the center of target 20190506192837_1.jpg
    a) bomb delay set to 4m 20190506183608_1.jpg
    b) bomb delay set to 24m 20190506190013_1.jpg
    c) bomb delay set to 48m 20190506192911_1.jpg
    d) bomb delay set to 100m 20190506184209_1.jpg

    When I made this mission I set 10m between single red crosses, 50m between single white crosses and 100m between three crosses marks.
    So, what we see. First bomb is alway fall somewhere 150-200m before the crosshair point of view.

    So keep in mind this:
    I) if you want to see the crosshair in the middle of target set 40-44meters delay.
    II) if you need to hit very small target set 0m or 4m delay and set crosshair 20-40m behind target.
    Last edited by Rostic; May-06-2019 at 13:14.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    About bombing in wind conditions I wrote an report on forum. Actualy I was wrong, and no error in that how bombs affected by wind.
    But in that topic you can read how to HIT target in wind conditions in the game.
    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post327494

    Also you can donwload some tools and test mission in attached ZIP file.

    P.S. My He111 navigation and bombing tool work very well for me with my He111. It can help hit very small target like fuel tank from 5000m with single bomb.
    P.S.S.: The best tool for flight planning: http://aljarasoft.webcindario.com/mapndb/
    Last edited by Rostic; May-06-2019 at 13:17.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Rostic,

    You know how calculate the drift caused by wind, but using only with plane instruments (bombsight, compass...)?

    Like there: https://youtu.be/uIfJaK1f0xM?t=918
    Last edited by 1lokos; May-06-2019 at 15:10.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    Rostic,

    You know how calculate the drift caused by wind, but using only with plane instruments (bombsight, compass...)?

    Like there: https://youtu.be/uIfJaK1f0xM?t=918
    Not calculate. But I can easy determine with bombsight in He111.
    1) Just fly straight forwar in mode 22.
    2) Set side slip to 0.
    3) Look to the ground on bombsight angle between 20-40 and try to find good visible reference object on your crosshair vertical line.
    4) If object goes to the left from vertical line, then increase slip angle (bombsight turns RIGHT). If object goes to the right, then decrease slip angle (bombsight turns LEFT).
    5) Find new reference object on your crosshair vertical line.
    6) Repeat 4) and 5) until reference object strats moving directly through vertical line of your scope, from up to down. NOW you had determined your airplane slip angle (BUT NOT BOMBS).

    For dropping bomb from altitude 5000m to 6000m do this:
    a) On angle 60-50 start automatation of the bombsight and stabilize it on the target.
    b) When you target will be on 35-40 degree, just set double value of slip angle that you already determined.
    c) Start changing course of airplane trying to hold target in center of your crosshair and wait until angle will be 15-10 degree. Now you can switch off automatation of the bombsight.
    d) Go to the bottom gunners place and watch how target burning

    For altitudes below 5000m, angles will be bigger.


    After reading this text guide I decided to record a video guide. Hope it will help anyone.
    Right now this video is available by link. If anyone think that video is useful, then I'll make it public.
    P.S. My spoken english is really bad. I hope that someone understand what I'm saying in video

    Last edited by Rostic; May-06-2019 at 17:38.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Yes, you are right, is not calculate but estimate the drift caused by wind.

    The purpose of know this is not just for bombing, but for navigation like in the linked video, for estimate the direction and speed of the wind, using DREIECKRECHNER DR-3 disk.

    Spoiler: 

    An example, plane flight on the route 300º at 350 KM/H TAS, navigator need estimate wind direction and speed, then:

    - Fly the plane for 2 minutes in a course at 30º of flight course - or 270º and take note of drift.
    - Then fly for 2 minutes in a course 30º for the left - or 300º and take note of drift.

    The angle between the two legs need be 60º.

    Assuming that drift measures in each leg is:

    - The first measure is take at 270º, resulting in -4º.
    - The second measure is take a 330º, and result in +6º.

    Now in DREIECKRECHNER DR-3 disk, compass side set the black arrow cursor (that represents airplane heading) under 270º , the dark red line with red dot, is automatically placed under 330º since is set a 60º.

    where is there a chase bank around me

    Localize the marks - 4º and follow the faint blue line until this line intersect with the faint red line at +6º.

    Now place the center line (orange) of blue cursor over this intersection point, the tail of blue arrow point show the wind direction = 293º.

    The number of the circle more close to this intersection point, in this case is 15, that means that wind speed is 15% of plane TAS (15% of 350) = 52.5 km/H.


    Your bombing video is well explained. Thank you.

    The need of set the drift value multiplied by 2 (8.5 x2 = 17) is due a bug in game bombsight?
    Last edited by 1lokos; May-07-2019 at 00:25.

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    The need of set the drift value multiplied by 2 (8.5 x2 = 17) is due a bug in game bombsight?
    If you watch video about norden bomb sight, you will see that bombs will have bigger side drift.
    https://youtu.be/143vi97a4tY


    But I am not checked that multiplying by 2 is correct or not
    Last edited by Rostic; May-07-2019 at 00:29.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I was wondering to what extend the coriolis effect on winds was modeled in CLoD.

    It is more complicated than that, but the simple theory says that the higher the altitude, in other words the furthest away from the ground effect (friction) on winds, you get two effects:

    1. The wind speed increases with altitude

    2. Because winds are faster with altitude, the coriolis effect is also stronger, so winds tend to veer with altitude (clockwise in the northern hemisphere).

    This means that the wind speed and direction measured at bombing altitude will be different from surface winds, and in real life, one would also have to account for this effect when correcting sight for accurate bombing...
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noofy View Post
    Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I was wondering to what extend the coriolis effect on winds was modeled in CLoD.

    It is more complicated than that, but the simple theory says that the higher the altitude, in other words the furthest away from the ground effect (friction) on winds, you get two effects:

    1. The wind speed increases with altitude

    2. Because winds are faster with altitude, the coriolis effect is also stronger, so winds tend to veer with altitude (clockwise in the northern hemisphere).

    This means that the wind speed and direction measured at bombing altitude will be different from surface winds, and in real life, one would also have to account for this effect when correcting sight for accurate bombing...
    In real life - yep.

    But in this game, in most cases, we have only one wind layer with constant speed on full altitude range. But game ollow to create multiple wind layers in FMB.
    Last edited by Rostic; May-07-2019 at 13:33.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    about norden bomb sight
    https://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell

    15 fascinating minutes

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    A really good listen! What an amazing speaker......hardly a hesitation, stutter, pause or repetition in the whole talk! A very clever chap......! Thanks for sharing! Salute!

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    Brilliant

    Thx for sharing.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Some great advice and thoughts from some bomber experten - much appreciated, esp the discussion and video showing bombing in high winds. Very impressive accuracy!

    Ill keep practicing and see how i go. Looking fwd to trying out my bombing online on the weekend. Just need to evade detection before i get to the tgt - Snapper got me last time so need to work on that. I have some ideas (and plenty of fuel)....

    Ezzie

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    I have some ideas (and plenty of fuel)....

    Ezzie
    So does the beaufighter

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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    Some great advice and thoughts from some bomber experten - much appreciated, esp the discussion and video showing bombing in high winds. Very impressive accuracy!

    Ill keep practicing and see how i go. Looking fwd to trying out my bombing online on the weekend. Just need to evade detection before i get to the tgt - Snapper got me last time so need to work on that. I have some ideas (and plenty of fuel)....

    Ezzie
    And I belatedly apologize for clipping you like a real noob. If it’s any consolation, your gunners did a real job on me as I approached you from astern. I was too lazy/impatient to conduct a series of quartering, high deflection attacks and paid the price. I tried to nurse my stricken Spit back to base, but I ended up going into the drink before you!

    Promise a 109 pilot a bottle of cognac to accompany you to your target. THAT will ruin the day for us Brylcreme Boys! LOL



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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    I havent flown in a long time but snapper was one of the few reds that would show up at 7k or so like clockwork about 5 min from target.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Another tip that may be of help...if you use the SD bombs instead of GP ones they provoke more damage. Take in mind somehow that the SD bombs, due to the different shape and aerodinamic in respect to the GP ones, will fall in a different way on the ground ( said very briefly, the small bombs will fall pretty much in the same line as per normal while the SD ones, also with the bombs separation set to 0, will fall about 200-300 meters forward in respect to the small ones ).
    SD bombs are ideal for large targets like airfields for example....they provoke more damage and due to the fact that they are fragmentation bombs the chance that the fragments hits parked objects is more higher in respect to the general purpose ones.

    The same applies for the Bf 110 bombs but remember that the SD ones must be dropped from more than 1000 meters altitude to be able to explode so never use them for small targets like flak emplacements or small buildings otherwise aiming them becomes pretty tricky.

    Just to give you a reference if I remember correctly how it works on the Bf 110...

    Using 2 x 500 kg GP bombs against an enemy airfield you will get about the 10% damage ( ATAG main server ). The same using 2 x 500 kg SD ones and you will get the 12% damage. It could seems a little but this means that using the SD ones after 5 sorties it's like if you have flown 6 sorties using the GP ones. ( 2% difference x 5 sorties = 10 % difference that correspond to 1 sortie using the GP ones speaking of the damage provoked by the bombs )

    Last but not least, but this something for real " Jedi of the bombing run " ( or better said for maniacs pilots ), knowing the bomb's weight, the wind speed, your aircraft speed, etc ( and you like making a bit of maths ) you can calculate the approximate fall speed of the bomb\s of interest and so then calculating the approximate distance that the bomb\s will travel from the moment of the drop from your aircraft to the moment it\they will hit the ground becoming so fully aware of your bomb\s behaviour.

    Please note that if you will accomplish the last passage written above you will be promoted, with immediate effect, to the rank of " Obi-Wan Kenobi ". May the force be with you!!!
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders; May-08-2019 at 15:24.
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    Re: Feeling stale, server's very quiet - maybe try some high altitude bombing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    And I belatedly apologize for clipping you like a real noob. If it’s any consolation, your gunners did a real job on me as I approached you from astern. I was too lazy/impatient to conduct a series of quartering, high deflection attacks and paid the price. I tried to nurse my stricken Spit back to base, but I ended up going into the drink before you!

    Promise a 109 pilot a bottle of cognac to accompany you to your target. THAT will ruin the day for us Brylcreme Boys! LOL

    No probs re clipping me Snapper. I'd just settled in to the top gun to start shooting you when you hit my tail and took off the rudder and fin and it looked good up close. I couldnt bail out for some reason so slowly descended in descending turn and saw you hit the water just before me which was nice.

    Ive had some good escorts from Molders and co on previous sorties but none were available on this one. Next time.

    Ezzie

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