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Thread: Bomber Command: Training #1

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    Bomber Command: Training #1

    Bomber Command Training Poster #1.jpg

    Welcome pilots, air gunners, and bombardiers!

    We have our first Bomber Command event coming up, one week from our next Tiger Moth Shoot-up! Join us on Team Speak on the 8th of June, 2030 GMT (Time may be adjusted in future, but for the nature of the first event it would be good to have a little extra time)

    The first Bomber Command event will be training for pilots/bombardiers, currently in the Blenheim MK IV Late. The core of our first training event will be familiarisation, formation flying and air navigation. Depending on time we will hopefully get on to working with the good ol' MK IX Course-setting Bomb site.
    This I do say as I am not entirely sure what the time frame will look like for the training, but the first event will also be serving as a bit of a test to see how it will work.

    Don't be put off by the navigation component if you aren't too numbers savvy, as it will be the basic principles and perhaps a little on how to draw up a rudimentary "route plan."

    In regards to formation flying we will hopefully be able to cover three different kinds of formation flying; Line Abreast, Single file, and a defensive formation which I would like to test and/or grab some input on


    For pilots a joystick is preferable, but if anyone would like to come along and watch (stick or not) we will have some empty turrets for all who wish to come for a ride, so long as you behave yourselves

    Old timers are absolutely welcome, along with their input from experience!

    Anyone who wishes to join as a pilot (pilots will be doubling as bombardiers for this event so that we can all get full circle training) simply post a salute in this thread and we will put you down (Spectators can mention as such in their post)

    Input from all is welcome in this forum post for suggestions and/or queries.

    Please come prepared with your controls bound.
    Here is a list of necessary bindings with my suggestion for the bind, you do not have to use my suggestion, but please have the functions bound.
    wheel chocks toggle - shift C
    Change crew position - C (or if easier bind specific keys for pilot and bombardier)
    Lean to gunsight - middle mouse
    Engine #1 select - 1
    Engine #2 select - 2
    All engines select - 0
    Toggle selected engine (ignition) - I
    Open radiator - Shift R
    Close radiator - Control R
    Prop pitch + W
    Prop pitch - S
    Elevator trim
    Rudder trim
    Elevator trim reset
    Rudder trim reset
    (I use num pad for my trim keys)
    Sight altitude increase - +
    Sight altitude decrease - -
    Sight velocity increase
    Sight velocity decrease
    Adjust sight left
    Adjust sight right

    Don't be too concerned if you are new even to Cliffs, just give it a crack setting it up, and if you miss something or can't find a binding, check up with us when we start the event and we can offer a hand

    Last edited by ATAG_TCP; May-26-2019 at 17:41.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Very good initiative, thanks!
    I will try to join some training session in the future, not sure if I can make it on the 8th though. Guess my Commander in chief at home has already other plans for me...

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Aye

    Question: for those wishing to learn how to fly LW planes, is it possible to join in a Ju88 or He111?
    We could take off from same base or rdv somewhere (good exercise too) and go together to bomb destination in one formation or two separate ones if speeds are not compatible/synchronizable (I don’t see why they would not).

    Could be extra work for the trainers I know, but this would avoid having to organize two different events...
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Top stuff!

    Will have a chat with Wukits about it, however this would somewhat break up the training itself :/
    We will also be using the open Allies VS Axis server for the event, so spawning on either side of the channel and then linking up would take up a lot of the time.
    Depending on the numbers interested, it may be practical to organise two different events for each air force. Perhaps coming together once every so often for a full on comp.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Aye

    Question: for those wishing to learn how to fly LW planes, is it possible to join in a Ju88 or He111?
    We could take off from same base or rdv somewhere (good exercise too) and go together to bomb destination in one formation or two separate ones if speeds are not compatible/synchronizable (I don’t see why they would not).

    Could be extra work for the trainers I know, but this would avoid having to organize two different events...
    Might be difficult to convince the AI gunners not to shoot at each other

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by TheChristianPilot View Post
    Top stuff!

    Will have a chat with Wukits about it, however this would somewhat break up the training itself :/
    We will also be using the open Allies VS Axis server for the event, so spawning on either side of the channel and then linking up would take up a lot of the time.
    Depending on the numbers interested, it may be practical to organize two different events for each air force. Perhaps coming together once every so often for a full on comp.
    Sure. I understand.

    Again the intention here is to simplify things. Navigation techniques is the same regardless of whatever bomber you fly. The difference will be in the instruments (where they are located, how to manipulate them, how to interpret them, etc.). Not to mention the key binding, etc. unless we can use the same key bindings for all types of planes, I have no idea...

    So my suggestion was to avoid to the LW pilots/bombers the extra burden of having to re-learn all of the above.

    Also, is using the open ATAG server the best setup for first sessions? This is an open door to being strafed on the ground before even taking off, or after takeoff before even having a chance to put in practice all the stuff you would have learned. Unless the plan is to also have fighter escorts that would protect the airfield while the training session takes place on the ground, then the bombers while in the air?

    After all this is probably how it was in real life, except that such event would have been kept secret and certainly not publicized on an open forum read by the enemy

    Anyway these are just suggestions. I'll go with whatever the organizers deem makes sense.

    And feel free to involve me if needed. I will be of no added value in setting the planes up nor controlling them on the ground or in the air. Yet... However I can help with navigation, map reading, route planning, calculation techniques, etc.

    I still need to figure out to what extend atmospheric pressure, temperatures and winds at various altitudes are modeled in CLoD/the server/the mission. Normally all these parameters are variable, depend on current and predicted weather conditions, and change over time.

    These parameters need to be known in advance or otherwise estimated as accurately as possible, and included in the calculations of true air speed, drift, atmospheric altitude, etc. while planning the bomb run. It does not end there, and regular measurements need be taken en-route to confirm assumptions and adjust parameters as time passes. This is done by comparing landmarks below with map readings and/or radio navigation if available, plotting real position with planned and/or estimated position, interpreting the differences, and re-adjusting flight plan and bomb-sight parameters accordingly.

    There are many other things that would normally also be taken into consideration such as fuel consumption and derive the max weight load, set points of no return, plan for alternate airfields, etc. etc.

    Nowadays GPS and flight computers take care of all this, but in the good old WWII days all navigators had were the above information, their maps, a pencil, a slide-ruler, and their luck charm... Later came tools such as the E6B which was still widely used until the late 90's.

    This may be an overkill as I assume this is not implemented to that extend of complexity. But it may well be in future versions. Or people may just want to learn all that stuff for the fun of it, of true immersion in the life of a virtual WWII navigator.
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    Might be difficult to convince the AI gunners not to shoot at each other
    Unless you take off with empty guns...

    Again, this only makes sense if the sole purpose is to initially learn navigation and bombing techniques. Aerial combat / gunnery can be part of a separate cursus once the essentials are acquired.
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Some good info there Noofy!

    Been thinking of air nav from a more basic perspective, not pinpoint acuracy
    If you can ground crawl reasonably acurately then you have a good base to go off of.
    The actual bombing side of things I will be getting much more input from those of you who are familiar with it in sim.
    Also as it is Bomber Command training with the Brits pre heavy bombers, we will probably be looking at single file bombings at roughly 2000ft.
    As was the tactic of daylight raids, especially from the light and mediums

    In regards to the server Wukits has suggested the public one, as the private would be more handy, but is the TFS server used for the moth events. Getting close to final testings potentially TFS will naturally need this server for more intense testing purposes

    We can see what can be done in the next two weeks, but it will probably be public.
    First mission would likely be kept in Britain

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Sure. I understand.

    Again the intention here is to simplify things. Navigation techniques is the same regardless of whatever bomber you fly. The difference will be in the instruments (where they are located, how to manipulate them, how to interpret them, etc.).
    I agree, no matter which side you like and fly, Training in the Blenheim will transition to any plane. For the sake of training/formation flying etc, it would be best to stick with one aircraft.


    As for the bombing and bomb sight difference. Most of the keys are the same, and after I wouldn't mind sticking around after, or making time to go over the difference. Just keep in mind that I'm learning this stuff rather recently, and will do my best to convey what I am learning.




    I would say that it may be good to have a prerequisite of having your keys bound for multi engine aircraft prior to the event. I can easily see the event being nothing more than a tech support for those who have not bound their equipment. To avoid this, perhaps we should put a discussion on here on what keys should be bound, or a theory of what to bind and why.

    Example:
    One of the first things I have done is removed the Throttle axis binding, and in its place I have bound Engine #1 and Engine #2.
    The reason for this is that I have a dual throttle control, and if you are in a single engine fighter.... it only has one engine, hence Engine #1 is already set. If I am in a dual engine aircraft, it is taken care of by my Engine #2 bind. If I move Engine#2 Axis while in a single engine aircraft it doesnt do anything as it only has one engine... Engine #1

    Does this make sense?

    Another function that would need to be bound is engine selection: Left, Right, Both

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lord Wukits View Post
    Example:
    One of the first things I have done is removed the Throttle axis binding, and in its place I have bound Engine #1 and Engine #2.
    The reason for this is that I have a dual throttle control, and if you are in a single engine fighter.... it only has one engine, hence Engine #1 is already set. If I am in a dual engine aircraft, it is taken care of by my Engine #2 bind. If I move Engine#2 Axis while in a single engine aircraft it doesnt do anything as it only has one engine... Engine #1

    Does this make sense?

    Another function that would need to be bound is engine selection: Left, Right, Both
    Yes that makes sense.

    However, if you have the engine selection keys for E#1, E#2, and "All Engines" bound, you can (in theory) keep the throttle axis binding as is. By default (i.e. when you start the sim) engine selection is set to "All Engines", so if you are flying a fighter or a bomber the throttle axis will work the same. If when in a bomber you need to take a different action on left or right engine, you can select E#1 or E#2, do whatever you wanted to do, and then come back to "All Engines". This by the way should work likewise for any engine-related command, such as magnetos settings, mixture settings, radiator settings, prop pitch settings, prop feathering, carb heat, and any other command I may have left out.

    The above of course is intended to those who have a single throttle control (like myself) and wish to fly both fighters and bombers with the same settings.

    Currently I have a different settings .ini file for each type of aircraft, but I am working on a common setting that would work for both. I'll share it here when done (and tested) for those who may be interested. You won't have to use the same key bindings as me, but rather be inspired by the logic behind it to map the keys to your likings/preferences. This being said someone may have already produced such a file earlier (I confess I have not yet had time to go through all the posts in this forum). If you know about it please post the link.
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; May-25-2019 at 11:00.
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lord Wukits View Post
    I would say that it may be good to have a prerequisite of having your keys bound for multi engine aircraft prior to the event. I can easily see the event being nothing more than a tech support for those who have not bound their equipment. To avoid this, perhaps we should put a discussion on here on what keys should be bound, or a theory of what to bind and why.
    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ead.php?t=8556

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lord Wukits View Post
    ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.
    That was great fun. Thanks a lot to you and DRock for the training, and to all the participants for the fun.

    Learned a lot. Still a long way to go...

    Looking forward to a similar event on a Ju88, or He111.

    Can't get used to this awkward GB compass. On my solo runs I had to find the target by dead reckoning (no landmarks visible for a very long time crossing the Channel at 50ft on the deck)
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post

    Can't get used to this awkward GB compass.
    Its quite simple, as it is used for auto pilot. FOr everything else just keep in mind that the "T" always points north. so you can dead recon from that the direction you need to go. I'll go over it with you when i get the chance.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Fun stuff.

    Next time, let’s get some more escorts.
    Last edited by ATAG_DRock; May-25-2019 at 20:52.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lord Wukits View Post
    ATAG_Noofy & ATAG_Scones I have to say it was an amazing pleasure to have you join us in the impromptu bomber training. Same to you DRock. WHen we get the time or you see me on, let me know and we'll go over the whole thing, and keep practicing.
    The pleasure was all mine, Wukits! Literally, it was a blast! Let's do it again.

    It was great that Vampire and Knight joined us early on. Without them I would have been your sole escort.

    Thanks DRock, Wukits, and to all who took part.

    Last edited by ATAG_Scones; May-26-2019 at 07:40.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Last edited by ATAG_DRock; May-25-2019 at 21:22.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lord Wukits View Post
    Its quite simple, as it is used for auto pilot. FOr everything else just keep in mind that the "T" always points north. so you can dead recon from that the direction you need to go. I'll go over it with you when i get the chance.
    Oh I can read it all right now.
    I just can’t get used to its logic.
    Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...

    To estimate my SSE course I was guessing the angle between the T-bar and the plane axis. That’s the only thing I could see at a glance. And you can’t get your eyes off the windscreen for too long when flying literally feet wet.
    Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
    Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
    Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
    It's simpler than I thought, and it is easy to understand and set up as well. We'll get you set up in no time at all. Though like you I don't understand any of the positions of all the devices on the Red planes. It's like all their locations were an afterthought.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Nice one guys. We made sure you got full experience.
    It was nice to see blennie formation.
    Get more escorts next time.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    I just can’t get used to its logic.
    Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...
    British planes are not about logic, they are about style
    Anyway, the compass in the Blennie is perfectly visible, compared with other British ac.


    In Hurri or Spit you basically have to wiggle around the stick to catch a glance.
    And in the Beaufighter it is nicely placed, but you just can't see the T unless you zoom in all the way.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    ... the compass in the Blennie is perfectly visible, compared with other British ac.
    I love the way you put it
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Oh I can read it all right now.
    I just can’t get used to its logic.
    Nor to its position, hidden right behind the steering wheel...

    To estimate my SSE course I was guessing the angle between the T-bar and the plane axis. That’s the only thing I could see at a glance. And you can’t get your eyes off the windscreen for too long when flying literally feet wet.
    Now if I knew how to set the autopilot on it would have been a different story.
    Still a lot to learn, and this is what makes it so much fun
    There is a compass in the bombardier station, I do my navigating from there.

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Torric270 View Post
    There is a compass in the bombardier station, I do my navigating from there.
    Ah, ok. Did not know that. Will check it out.
    I also normally use Virtual Cockpit that displays intruments and other parameters on a separate monitor, but yesterday I was not in my usual setup, so did not have this one on hand.
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; May-26-2019 at 08:54.
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    nice map with tools for navigation if you can set it up on a tablet or laptop, handy for trying to sneak in the back door , you could also set it up on steam overlay, I prefer to use a an old laptop i have

    http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Mitgli...map/index.html

    remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole

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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    nice map with tools for navigation if you can set it up on a tablet or laptop, handy for trying to sneak in the back door , you could also set it up on steam overlay, I prefer to use a an old laptop i have

    http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Mitgli...map/index.html

    remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole
    Nice one. Thanks for the link
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post

    remember to add 10 degrees to compass setting to account for diff between true and magnetic pole


    Capture.jpg

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    Supporting Member 9./JG52 gr00ve's Avatar
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    Re: Bomber Command: Training #1

    nice screens...unfortunately for you, thats none of us in first 4 screenshots. rest of them is pretty familiar. I have video of second raid we bounced. Sadly, I didn't record sortie in 110 and first raid...Mindle snapped his wing off in a dive, so i had to do it all by myself
    "Karaya Eins"

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