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Thread: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

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    Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    I measured deviation values for Blenheim and it varies from -3° to +7°.

    I created a picture that should help with more precise navigating on the Blenheim airplane.

    How to use? Simple! On the picrure presents numbers. In internal circle of numbers you must find value that best match to the navigating course you whant to fly, then you pic up a corresponding number from external circle numbers and add picked value to the navigation course you whant to fly. Thats it, you calculated the heading of your airplane that you have to fly.

    For example: You whant to fly navigating course 122°. The number in internal circle that best match is 120° and the corresponding value for it is 8°, so 122°+8°=130°. Well, you must fly with heading 130° by magnetic compas.
    WARNING! BOTH COMPASSES ARE LIE IN BLENHEIM WHEN CLIMBING OR DIVING. (edited)

    To set this picture to your airplane cockpit, copy and paste 1.tga to game dashpics folder. For me it is: "C:\Users\Rostic\Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\DashPics\Selected"
    Or just print it or download to smartphone or tablet.

    Dashpic itself: 1.zip

    wind_rose_cliffs.png 1.jpg blenheim_iv_deviation.PNG

    P.S.: Hope this will be useful for anyone
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-13-2019 at 13:52.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Is this only for Blennies?
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Is this only for Blennies?
    Yes, it is only for Blennies. All aircrafts have their own deviation.

    For example, Bf109 already has table with deviation values in cockpit by default: bf109_deviation.png


    Picture with correction for 111 for Englan/France map is:
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...HF5aG1YanJZMWM
    But you can discover there much more circles with numbers. The internal is the navigation course, next after them (in rect) is correction for magnetic compass, and external (in rect) for "Repeater Compass" (edited, prev. secondary compass). The last external outside rect is for nothing, do not care about it.
    1.jpg
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-15-2019 at 04:23.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    Yes, it is only for Blennies. All aircrafts have their own deviation.

    For example, Bf109 already has table with deviation values in cockpit by default: bf109_deviation.png


    Picture with correction for 111 for Englan/France map is:
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz...HF5aG1YanJZMWM
    But you can discover there much more circles with numbers. The internal is the navigation course, next after them (in rect) is correction for magnetic compass, and external (in rect) for secondary compass. The last external outside rect is for nothing, do care about it.
    1.jpg
    Thanks, that helps.
    I had seen this rose before. Inner circle is course, outer circle is reverse course, but I never managed to understand the meaning of the numbers of the two middle circles. Now I understand them.
    Just one question: what is the "secondary compass"?
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Thanks, that helps.
    I had seen this rose before. Inner circle is course, outer circle is reverse course, but I never managed to understand the meaning of the numbers of the two middle circles. Now I understand them.
    Just one question: what is the "secondary compass"?
    I'm sorry. In English version of game called by myself "secondary compass" is labeled as "repeater compass". And you can see magnetic compass at the right side of the picture.
    20191012190250_1.jpg
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-12-2019 at 13:08.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Ah, OK. Thank you for the clarifications.

    So let me see if I understand correctly:

    If I want to fly a geographic course of due North, that means I need to fly on magnetic heading of 010 to compensate for declination.

    To further adjust for deviation, I must correct to 010+6 = 016 on magnetic compass, and 010+13 = 023 on repeater compass.

    Confirm?

    Are these deviation numbers also valid for the Ju88 or just He111?
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Ah, OK. Thank you for the clarifications.

    So let me see if I understand correctly:

    If I want to fly a geographic course of due North, that means I need to fly on magnetic heading of 010 to compensate for declination.

    To further adjust for deviation, I must correct to 010+6 = 016 on magnetic compass, and 010+13 = 023 on repeater compass.

    Confirm?

    Are these deviation numbers also valid for the Ju88 or just He111?
    No, no, no!

    In that picture with "wind rose" that I provided for the He111 (and the Blenheim) the "+10" magnetic declination already counted in (this means that this pics will be useless in Tobruk )! So if you whant fly north "0" pick a "+13" for repeater compas and fly "13" by repeater compass. This means that deviation part for repeater compass is "+3" and magnetic declination for this region is "+10".

    But in picture for 109 the "+10" magnetic declination not counted in, that picture contain only deviation value.

    I had no such values for Ju88 but had used that picture for it and arrive not much far from that point where I whanted to arrive.
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-15-2019 at 04:29.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    In that picture I provided +10 compensation already counted in! So if you whant fly north "0" pick a "+13" for repeater compas and fly "13" by repeater compass. This means that deviation part for repeater compass is "+3" and magnetic inclination for this region is "+10".
    I see.
    That's why the figures were high (and none of them negative).
    Cool. Great chart.
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Oct-12-2019 at 15:28.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Also valid for Ju88?
    I had no such values for Ju88, but I used that picture for 88 and arrive not much far from that point where I whanted to arrive. So you can use, but for 88 this will be not much better then just add +10.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Because this deviation is due to magnetic interference in the plane, I guess the numbers would change depending on some factors. For example if the plane is empty or fully loaded with bombs. I wonder if in real life they had two (or more) such charts, one to fly out, and one to fly back after having released the bombs...
    How do you measure the deviation in CLoD?
    Do you spawn the aircraft in a given geographic direction, then go in and read the values on both the magnetic and repeater compasses, and then repeat 36 times with 10 degrees increment each time? Or is there a simpler way?
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Oct-12-2019 at 16:36.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Do you spawn the aircraft in a given geographic direction, then go in and read the values on both the magnetic and repeater compasses, and then repeat 36 times with 10 degrees increment each time? Or is there a simpler way?
    You are right. I did it the way you describe. But only 24times, with step 15 degree.
    Picture for He111 with 10drg precision was done by another player.

    In detail, I created mission with two points for airplane. Then in mode 22 I'm trying to hold airplane on the route line, displayed on the map, and reading the values from the compass
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-12-2019 at 16:54.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Top stuff Rostic!
    Always good to have our deviation charts on us

    I wonder if the Wellington will have any deviation charts available for navigation or not, would Slipstream know?

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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    In detail, I created mission with two points for airplane. Then in mode 22 I'm trying to hold airplane on the route line, displayed on the map, and reading the values from the compass
    I am not good at mission creating/scripting, but why do you have to do this in flight? can you not do that by spawning an airplane on the ground (at an airfield) with engines off and chocks on, then just read the compasses?
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    I am not good at mission creating/scripting, but why do you have to do this in flight? can you not do that by spawning an airplane on the ground (at an airfield) with engines off and chocks on, then just read the compasses?
    1. Airplane spawned on the airfield will be oriented it that direction, as it is predefined for corresponding spawnpoint, that is 99% will be NOT that direction I will need.
    2. For the correct reading of the values, it is important that the airplane is oriented in a horizontal plane. When it is on the ground the nose of airplane directed to the sky and tail directed to the groud. As i discovered in this case reading from compasses is wrong (in the Blenheim).

    So, in another words I do this in the fly because:
    1. It is easier to set straight course that I need. Also on the map I will see the route line, that will show me that I fly with right course.
    2. And when I'm flying in mode 22 my airplane is oriented in a horizontal plane and I'm sure that instruments show best accurate values.
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-13-2019 at 14:05.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    For the correct reading of the values, it is important that the airplane is oriented in a horizontal plane. When it is on the ground the nose of airplane directed to the sky and tail directed to the groud. As i discovered in this case reading from compass in pilot seat is wrong (in the Blenheim).
    I do not understand why reading a compass when not horizontal would show wrong figures, on the ground and with no motion.

    This would be the case when the plane is climbing, diving, accelerating, decelerating, or turning. This is due to the little masslet fit on the "needle" to change center of gravity and compensate for magnetic north being below horizon line so "needle" would not point "down".

    There should not be any effect while the plane is not moving. This is why in real life you would plot the deviation charts while on the ground.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    I do not understand why reading a compass when not horizontal would show wrong figures, on the ground and with no motion.

    This would be the case when the plane is climbing, diving, accelerating, decelerating, or turning. This is due to the little masslet fit on the "needle" to change center of gravity and compensate for magnetic north being below horizon line so "needle" would not point "down".

    There should not be any effect while the plane is not moving. This is why in real life you would plot the deviation charts while on the ground.
    I do not describe how I did it in Real Life. I describe how I did this in the game for Blenheim IV airplane. Virtual environment is littlebit different to RL.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    I do not describe how I did it in Real Life. I describe how I did this in the game for Blenheim IV airplane. Virtual environment is littlebit different to RL.
    Sure

    I am just trying to look for simplest way to do it. Probably like you did is best.

    Here is a chart showing the 3 deviation curves for Me109, Blenny, and He111 for comparison. This is based on the numbers you provided.

    2019-10-13_142627.jpg
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    The large variation going through West is interesting...
    Wonder if there is a good explanation for this?
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    The large variation going through West is interesting...
    Wonder if there is a good explanation for this?
    Magnetic "poles" are N/S
    Hence greatest variation tends to be E/W
    But is different in various geographical locations.

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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    I discovered that I was wrong in one thing: BOTH COMPASSES ARE LIE IN BLENHEIM WHEN CLIMBING OR DIVING.
    Last edited by Rostic; Oct-13-2019 at 13:53.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    I do not describe how I did it in Real Life. I describe how I did this in the game for Blenheim IV airplane. Virtual environment is littlebit different to RL.
    Yes, "Dr. Wh'leg world" has their own rules and physics.

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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    This video is more dedicated to compass errors in aviation



    And this one explains why...

    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Oct-14-2019 at 03:30.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    For those interested in a more official source, I suggest the following link for all things navigational. It's everything a pilot would ever want to know about compass issues. It's a remarkable resource for all pilots. (Engineers and historians need not apply)

    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli..._phak_ch16.pdf

    Links from here can take you to all phases of aviation operations and it's all been tested and approved by USA FAA.
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    I do not understand why reading a compass when not horizontal would show wrong figures, on the ground and with no motion.

    This would be the case when the plane is climbing, diving, accelerating, decelerating, or turning. This is due to the little masslet fit on the "needle" to change center of gravity and compensate for magnetic north being below horizon line so "needle" would not point "down".

    There should not be any effect while the plane is not moving. This is why in real life you would plot the deviation charts while on the ground.
    The deviation charts are properly plotted on the ground, but with a tail jack to place the airplane in a level flight attitude. "Tail dragger" error is not due to dip error, but rather "Installation error" due to the magnetic effect of the engine's higher position. In real life, many non-commercial pilots instead opt for inflight adjustment of the whisky compass using modern (GPS) heading sources and a brass screwdriver.

    Imagine the magnetic effect of a Merlin engine three feet away from the compass...

    Some interesting comments on this: https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...g-your-compass
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    Re: Blenheim IV precise navigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostic View Post
    I discovered that I was wrong in one thing: BOTH COMPASSES ARE LIE IN BLENHEIM WHEN CLIMBING OR DIVING.
    I think the compasses give wrong readings during acceleration. That is when:
    1. You increase or decrease speed
    2. You start or stop climb or dive (or more generally when you change rate of climb)
    3. During turn (centrifuge acceleration)
    4. Any combination of the above

    The reading should be accurate (except for deviation and declination of course) when there is no acceleration. That is:
    1. During stable level flight
    2. During stable climb or descent
    3. While stopped on the ground

    An that should be the case in all aircraft, not just the Blennheim.
    In theory...
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