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Thread: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by No.119_Marshy (VK-M) View Post
    Yes, thanks for organising the event D Rock.

    A tricky evening for the 5 spitfires of the 119th and all red fighter escorts I assume. The escort duty with the Blenheims was going fine until they started to join the Hurris, which were already taking a big hit and significantly higher than the Blenheims. Climbing into any scrap with 109s is bad enough, but being heavily outnumbered really made things pretty impossible - you know what's about to happen when the contrails start to disappear!

    By the way, no excuses on my part for the first mission, simply got bounced (I think by the guys of JG. 52?), whilst not paying full attention - lesson learned!

    Nevertheless, for my first big mission, thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks again

    Marshy
    I must confess that for once is was good to have you guys of the 119 on my six
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by No.119_Marshy (VK-M) View Post
    By the way, no excuses on my part for the first mission, simply got bounced (I think by the guys of JG. 52?), whilst not paying full attention - lesson learned!
    Were you flying alone, course south-west, mid channel at around 12k ft?
    Last edited by JG4_Karaya; Oct-21-2019 at 08:32.

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    Combat pilot No.119_Marshy (VK-M)'s Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Were you flying alone, course south-west, mid channel at around 12k ft?
    No first mission, got bounced just North of Hawkinge, flying no.3 in a group of 4. Got tangled up later on with a group of 3 or 4 mid channel, whilst No.119 Bruv was having a time of it with another bunch just to the North of me - could have been that? we had just climbed out of French point after chasing a 110 & 109 - possibly climbing out?

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    Supporting Member JG4_Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Thank you Rostic for letting me use your screenshot as thumbnail


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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Ouch! That hurt
    Many of us (including myself) were flying these hurries like bombers, forgetting that they were also fighters.
    Lesson learned...
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    ATAG Member ATAG_DRock's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.



    The server crashed 2 times, as well. Hopefully, we can learn a lot from these events and improve every aspect of the experience. Thank you for sticking with us.

    We may have to cap the number of pilots around 95 in the future. It would seem these events are popular, and a victim of its own success. Seeing all those familiar names flying with us is a great sight to see, though. I was hoping to see many more of the 69th, including the leadership of RedHawk, and I think they could have helped balance our skies. More invites needed there.



    The RAF Assaults are going to have to ramp up the escorts, otherwise we will suffer the same fate. Karaya may just be one of the best fighter pilots in this sim, but the entire JG4 squadron are aerial assassins. That goes for Meyer and his JG52 comrades, as well.

    For now, the Axis have air superiority over the RAF.
    Last edited by ATAG_DRock; Oct-21-2019 at 20:42.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Low hurris and spits could not gain energy once discovered by Blue fighters, even if hurris jettisoned bombs, game over. might have been different if raid left english point at altitude. Im not sure flying at low level give much advantage when i only takes one blue plane to spot incoming raid and vector defence on to it,
    looking at Karayas video it is almost as if they stumbled on hurri formation when chasing damaged spitty

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    As Drock mentioned earlier Red Defense badly needs a leader......

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.
    No worries mate. It was lots of fun, and that was the largest low-level formation flight I have ever been in

    As much as this makes sense with multi-crew bombers that can concentrate rear gunners fire on attackers, I’m not sure this is the best tactic with fighter-bombers.

    It might have been more efficient if we had split into five, six, or more smaller groups, each flying a different route, keeping altitude for energy. More difficult for the fighter escorts to protect us I concur, but also more difficult for the attackers to be on several fronts at the same time. Also primary targets for FBs should be precision targets as opposed to airfields which should be left to heavy bombers (same number of pilots can carry much more bombs).

    Operation blackjack was also great fun. Flying through various rendez-vous points to rally the hurries plus using the heavy bombers as "eyes" for the larger hurrie formation for hight altitude level bombing was a brilliant idea. We almost made it through, and were probably given away by the TAB-7-1 radar. Maybe sending a decoy bomber with one escort ahead on a different route would have helped lock radar onto another target for a while? Never really understood how that works in the game. Any thoughts?

    Anyway there is no reason whatsoever to feel bad or sorry about anything. The event was an absolute blast, and would never be the same thing without your enthusiasm and drive
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    That looked great coming up on all those Hurricanes
    "It's not pretty. It's not "your girlfriend". It's not comfortable.....but it is extremely cool"

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Don't beat yourself up DRock,



    it was still fun flying with that many planes all in one place.

    And like my boy Bob always says...


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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.

    Don't worry! We all had a great time and lots of fun!
    And how could we learn about tactics without trying?


    Now here my 2 cents about the situation. Please do not see this as a critique on the events (which I utterly love and will continue to participate in whatever happens) or in the way they are organised. Its just some thoughts and suggestions about how we could possibly make them even better.

    I do agree, that for now Luftwaffe has the advantage over RAF.
    In my opinion this has several reasons.

    If you look at numbers:
    during the last Blue event there were about 10 Heinkels, protected by about 30 or 40 fighters.
    This time we were about 30 or 40 Hurribombers and only one or two handful of escorts.

    If you look at organisation:
    With JG4 and 9/JG 52 (and others) blue has well organised squadrons with considerable numbers of pilots. In comparison red squadrons are much smaller (and in the case of our FG 28 rather proud of their dis-organisation )

    If you look at tactics:
    the last blue event had an elaborate route at high altitude, in order to conceal the target. There was well organised close escort, escort at altutude and spotters at advanced position. The Heinkels with their considerable defensive armament flew in close formation.
    From the red side here was no attempt whatsoever to stage an organised defense. Just brave but desperate single attacks.
    This time we just went directly from the one and only airport that had Hurribombers to the next target. The Hurris don't have any defensive armament at all, there one and only advantage is their ability tu turn. So when they are 'pushing on to target', instead of fighting they are nothing but sitting ducks.
    The third attempt with high altitude bombing was a great idea. Unluckily it failed because blue defense was too well organised.

    If you look at aircraft (and I know that some will disagree here, but anyway ):
    For attack:
    With He 111 and Ju 88 Blue has much better bombers, fast, well armed and carrying huge loads of bombs.
    Red has the Blennie ...
    With Bf110 and Bf109 E-4B Blue has much better fighterbombers, carrying more or heavier bombs than a Blennie and in the case of the E-4B the fastest aircraft of all at low altitude. Both types also carry extremly effective cannons.
    Red has the Hurri ... One of the slowest aircraft of all, carrying 8 little eastereggs and eight 303 pea shooters.

    For defense:
    With their cannons 109s and 110 can easily rip any bomber to pieces and still fight with escorts at least at equal terms.
    With their 303s Spits and Hurris have a hard time to inflict any serious damage on a bomber. The Hurri is definetely outclassed by almost all Blue fighters. The Beaufighter has the armament to destroy bombers but is completely hopeless in a dogfight and not even able to check its own six.

    The only way to deal with these disadvantages for Red would be to use very different tactics.
    Fighter bombers for example should attack different soft targets in small groups on a variety of routes. Naturally this would spoil the fun of formation flying and I don't know any map that would offer such targets.
    Defending Red should try to organise groups of Beaufighters protected by Spits, with the one and only task of the Spitties to protect the Beaus and not to attack the bombers. This will be difficult to do because of the lack of larger squadrons.

    Again: thank you, thank you, thank you for organising these events and I'm already looking forward to the next one.


    S!


    DerDa

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    ATAG Member ATAG_TCP's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Na DRock!
    It was epic!

    I think we could do with some more experiments with RAF flying. It is great being in a formation of British warbirds defending the homeland from the hun in the sun (namely Mölders and Karaya), we just haven't done much of it

    No.4 was an epic event though, it went well, ya gotta learn how to engage from a bad position when ya gotta aswell, all great experiance, and still fun

    Nothing quite like having a 109 bust into your formation ahead of you to try and kill your mate and just being able to pull up your nose and give him his daily dose of lead

    No offense huns





    One thought,
    Something that could add some extra dimension, and as we have an excessive(ly good) number of players which was displayed on sunday, how difficult would it be to set up weekend training days individually (different times etc) for RAF and Luftwaffe, to then get together at the end of the month for example for a head to head competition of some sorts?

    What I mean is having an actual RAF vs Luftwaffe, a bit like two massive squadrons.

    Is it too compettitive?

    Is it not practical?

    Just an idea, ideas are fun
    Last edited by ATAG_TCP; Oct-22-2019 at 05:50.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.
    Don't: I (flying red) had great fun!


    The server crashed 2 times, as well.
    Oskar has saved the server log file. We're looking into it.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Knight's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.



    The server crashed 2 times, as well. Hopefully, we can learn a lot from these events and improve every aspect of the experience. Thank you for sticking with us.

    We may have to cap the number of pilots around 95 in the future. It would seem these events are popular, and a victim of its own success. Seeing all those familiar names flying with us is a great sight to see, though. I was hoping to see many more of the 69th, including the leadership of RedHawk, and I think they could have helped balance our skies. More invites needed there.



    The RAF Assaults are going to have to ramp up the escorts, otherwise we will suffer the same fate. Karaya may just be one of the best fighter pilots in this sim, but the entire JG4 squadron are aerial assassins. That goes for Meyer and his JG52 comrades, as well.

    For now, the Axis have air superiority over the RAF.
    Hey DRock

    If not for your input none of these events would ever take place . Same go's for the T/Moth meetings which again you play a big part in . It takes someone to do it . It's very good of you to give up your free time to organise these things .

    From the howls of laughter I hear through my headphones: I would say that all taking part are enjoying it and very much appreciate your efforts . Good job mate and please keep it up . For me it was one of the best nights on the server.

    Can we have some more please .

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    Supporting Member JG4_Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    The idea was to create a massive conflict, not lead you all to your slaughter.

    I’m very sorry about that. It’s not a good feeling.
    No need to be sorry about anything DRock, I think everybody who participated will agree that it was fun nontheless. And that's exactly what we are here for, success is only an added bonus, the cherry on top so to say.

    Just remember the first BR.20 sortie during the last event. The bombers got torn to shreds before even a single bomber went feet wet. I don't recall anyone on blue team being demoralized by that, if anything it made us more determined for the 2 sorties that followed.

    I agree that the ratio of escorts vs bombers this time around was way too low to provide any kind of meaningful protection. I was quite surprised to only spot like a handful of Spitfires in the entire formation. If need be I can get involved with the organization of the red fighters next time, just need to find a good excuse for my comrades for why I'm flying red

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Wow! Just spent a few minutes going through everyone’s replies with some terrific analysis.

    For my part, I had a blast the whole time. Even on my initial takeoff run when I tried to dodge some flaming wreckage on the Rochester airfield and clumsily upended myself on rough ground and blew up. Much hilarity on TeamSpeak and believe me - I was laughing the loudest!

    I had a great time, same as everyone. As our good pal Lewis would say, “It’s all about the fun, buddy!”

    You succeeded in spades, DRock.

    Thank you.



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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    If you look at organisation:
    With JG4 and 9/JG 52 (and others) blue has well organised squadrons with considerable numbers of pilots. In comparison red squadrons are much smaller......
    I think DerDa has it right.

    Coupled with that organisation is also a disciplined approach to flying. Something which very few Red pilots use or want to use. To me that is the difference.

    However, it is as the saying 'Horses for courses' implies, pilots will fly how they prefer.

    I had a great time, same as everyone. As our good pal Lewis would say, “It’s all about the fun, buddy!”
    Snappers comment sums it up nicely.

    Looking forward to the next one.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Basically, everything has already been said. Yet, not by everyone...

    With this low amount of escort planes and very numerous 109 pilots, there was hardly any chance for those slow and vulnerable figher-bomber Hurricanes to reach the target. It might have been different, if your group hadn't been spotted that early, but getting the fighter-bombers back home would have been nearly impossible in any case.
    I already give kudos to every pilot of a fighter Hurricane daring to face 109s, but I nearly pity those figher-bomber pilots.

    Of course, every bomber and escort pilot's intention is to bomb the target to the ground, shoot down all attacking planes and return home safely without a single loss. But ATAG ASSAULT is much more. It is not about effectiveness - single flying Hurricanes would have won the map in less than an hour - but about flying together. And man, what a sight this Hurricane raid was! For all of the blue pilots and for sure for every red pilot as well!

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Hi Guys

    Well for starters I would like to apologize for the heavy losses ... yes I was flying bomber escort . This wasn't my first ATAG event, but it sure did feel like it. Communications was not very good; I had no idea what the target was or what heading the bombers where flying.

    On my 1st flight I was flying bomber escort with my team mates coming out of Gravesend. We were on the lookout for our charges when the team spotted some action over Eastchurch. They broke off from our mission to investigate, I followed suit. A dog fight ensued and I was hit in the elevators. As the fight wore on, I lost sight of my quarry. JG52 Meyer in his Bf 109 rounded onto my six and let me have it with his 20mm cannons. I was killed almost instantly. I was just south of Rochester. This incident occurred: Grid sector AS-25.

    20191019205902_1.jpg

    The next couple of flights ended prematurely because of the server crashing.

    On my 4th flight, unfortunately I had some difficulties at base which delayed me getting into the air. Once I was airborne, I spent most of my time trying to catch up with my team mates and locating the bombers. Because I was so far back and I was so intent on spotting the bombers and catching up with my team mates, I made the stupid mistake of not watching my six. JG52 Groove reminded me of the errors of my ways. He tore into me with his 20mm's with such fierce determination he blew my entire tail section off. I was dead instantly. This incident happened just west of Hawkinge: Grid sector AU-23.

    20191019221823_1.jpg20191019221934_1.jpg

    On my 5th and final flight, I did manage to find the bombers. What a spectacular sight it was, in a very gruesome carnage sort of way Unfortunately, I was alone (again) and got jumped by a flight of Bf 109's and took several hits that rendered me useless. I limped my way to Hawkinge in favour of living to fly another day, rather than facing another ill fated death. Below are some pics of the FB's I found

    20191019225009_1.jpg20191019225159_1.jpg20191019225206_1.jpg20191019230108_1.jpg20191019230143_1.jpg20191019230523_1.jpg

    It was a blast: Thanks DRock. I look forward to the next, and hopefully my skills will have improved some by then

    God bless! (as the Padre always says)
    Last edited by No.119_Padre (VK-P); Oct-22-2019 at 15:32.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    I had a blast as well, and I believe it was my flaming wreckage that caused Snappers abrupt trip into the thickets! All a blast for sure. Karayas comments got me thinking..about the BR20 massacre and what I think might be a good idea. Kick this around next time about a possible staggered start for the offensive team( Red or blue). Let the offensive team spawn in first..and get a 15 min head start to get bombers started and in the air forming up. ( Allowed to get up and have plans laid out..but not to advance towards any targets.) After 15 min are up the Defensive team is allowed to spawn in as quickly as they can to ( scramble) to get up that way they don't have scouts out already catching the bombers before they can even get feet wet?
    Cheers
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    A wonderful thread, to which I will add...

    We had fun therefore let us rejoice!

    And kick our butts into shape for the next one!


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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Well said Sconsey!

    Reminded me of this.



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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Vampire View Post
    Well said Sconsey!

    Reminded me of this.



    07
    Sir Laurence Olivier is amazing delivering his 'Saint Crispin's Day' speech.

    Good find, Vamps!

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    [QUOTE=ATAG_Vampire;341002]Well said Sconsey!

    Reminded me of this.



    more this methinks M'lord Sconsy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q5nxkomDl4

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Knight View Post
    Hey DRock

    If not for your input none of these events would ever take place . Same go's for the T/Moth meetings which again you play a big part in . It takes someone to do it . It's very good of you to give up your free time to organise these things .

    From the howls of laughter I hear through my headphones: I would say that all taking part are enjoying it and very much appreciate your efforts . Good job mate and please keep it up . For me it was one of the best nights on the server.

    Can we have some more please .
    I echo Knight's comments, if anything it was being a victim of your own success. Too many planes/players crashing the server and getting everyone on-board. I'd just love to see a few more turn out during the weeknights!

  33. #87
    Combat pilot No.119_Marshy (VK-M)'s Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Part of the 119th warming up at Gravesend, prior to escort dispatch...

    Padre.bmp

    Padre had a bit of an issue!
    Last edited by No.119_Marshy (VK-M); Oct-23-2019 at 04:45.

  34. Likes ATAG_DRock, ATAG_Scones liked this post
  35. #88
    Team Fusion ATAG_yotheguy's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Thanks again DRock and everyone, hope you enjoy.


  36. #89
    ATAG Member ATAG_DRock's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Very cool, Yo.

  37. #90
    Manual Creation Group ATAG_Vampire's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.4

    Great video yo.

    Thanks for posting.

    07
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